djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 13:21:27 GMT -5
sounds like a joke, right? www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.htmlIn the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education: Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority. Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.” It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.”
hilarious send-up by Colbert, here:
www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/416535/july-17-2012/the-word---on-the-straight---narrow-minded
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 11, 2013 14:19:57 GMT -5
which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
The devil is in the details.... they oppose what is seen as undermining the authority of the parents, by indoctrinating and pushing an agenda... likely a far left, radical agenda. Elementary schools need to be teaching basics. The GOP is opposing what has caused the US education system to be the worst in the world.
All the items in the last sentence are subject areas that parents should be teaching and raising their children. The govt has no business meddling in those area.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 14:30:24 GMT -5
which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
The devil is in the details.... they oppose what is seen as undermining the authority of the parents um, i PUT that "detail" in my post, SF.......i did that for a reason. imo, what they oppose is critical thinking, which MAY undermine parental authority. so, what that says to me is that there is a certain segment of the parental population that seems to think it is a good idea to have kids that don't question them. personally, i think that is a terrible idea. i want my teen questioning me. that is what helps teens become adults. so, effectively what the GOP is saying is that they want people to remain perpetually children, and not to question authority. i think you can probably imagine how i feel about that. but they also specifically mentioned challenging BELIEFS. i can see why they don't like that. i think the agenda is pretty clear, SF. but you apparently don't. must be that belief challenging thing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 14:31:40 GMT -5
PS- the only entities that don't want their beliefs challenged, ime, are those that can't back up their beliefs with anything other than "because X says so".
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 14:32:24 GMT -5
Makes sense for the modern Republican party. The absolute last thing they want future Republican voters learning are critical thinking skills.
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 11, 2013 14:34:12 GMT -5
All the items in the last sentence are subject areas that parents should be teaching and raising their children. The govt has no business meddling in those area. ---------------- Lol! Sure. And religion should be taught in school? How about keeping that at home?
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2013 14:43:09 GMT -5
Critical thinking IS a basic.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 14:48:42 GMT -5
You say that, but it's not true.
You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you.
This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent.
As for the OP, I agree with the Texas GOP that OBE did have the sole purpose of undermining parental authority. If 'Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS)' is simply a rebranding of that, good on the legislators for taking a stand against it lest it accelerate the US's slide into the abyss even further. To heck with giving schools a mandate to gainsay values parents have passed on to their children and replace it with whatever dross the state thinks is appropriate.
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 11, 2013 14:51:47 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two.
critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 14:54:14 GMT -5
Makes sense for the modern Republican party. The absolute last thing they want future Republican voters learning are critical thinking skills. this is PRECISELY what i think. actually- i will take it one step further. the closer you get to the idea of a democratic republic in the US mold, the less critical thinking you want. unfortunately, this idea is VERY common among our so-called leadership. that the best thing you can do to with the thundering herd is to keep them confused and atomized. heaven forbid that they should ever be informed, and make decisions based on their collective interests as a voting bloc. that would really fuck things up for them. what i love about the GOP these days is that they have become so bold in their gerrymandered red states that they are no longer afraid of telling the truth. it is really a sight to behold. and it is political suicide.
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 11, 2013 14:55:17 GMT -5
Critical thinking IS a basic. Exactly. I don't know why anyone would want his kid to be sheltered from the world and only exposed to ideas from the narrow Judeo Christian community he grew up in. At some point the kid gets launched into the world on his own, and suddenly he reads and hears and sees all kinds of things. How is he supposed to figure out what he thinks is the truth vs what he thinks is someone blowing smoke? Even people who claim to be Christians proclaiming God's law sometimes aren't. Kids absolutely need to know how think critically for themselves, and not get sucked into the latest thing either Fox News, Rush or Mother Jones or MSNBC has to say. If you're a strong enough Christian, your faith won't be swayed by learning about other religions, or people who don't follow a religion at all. Other religions shouldn't frighten you.
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 11, 2013 14:57:26 GMT -5
You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you.
This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent. --------------- Do you have kids, Virgil? There's a world of difference between putting your foot down that you're not going to buy them a new iphone, and having a child question and understand philosophies. I WANT my child to do that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 14:58:11 GMT -5
You say that, but it's not true. no, i say that and it IS true. you want to call my wife and ask her?You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you. NO! i want my son to question my authority for legitimacy. in fact, i want him to question ALL authority for legitimacy. that is because MOST authority is completely illegitimate. but unless it is questioned, he will never know that.This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent. no. i wanted that to be the case of my 10 year old, but not my 12 year old, and not from now on. he is a YOUNG ADULT, and that means that he should question me. if he doesn't, he is not doing his job as a teenager.As for the OP, I agree with the Texas GOP that OBE did have the sole purpose of undermining parental authority. then, regretfully, i think you are completely nuts, because that is absolutely NOT what mastery is about, dude. you are simply uninformed on this topic, and there is nothing more to discuss until you fix that.If 'Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS)' is simply a rebranding of that, good on the legislators for taking a stand against it lest it accelerate the US's slide into the abyss even further. To heck with giving schools a mandate to gainsay values parents have passed on to their children and replace it with whatever dross the state thinks is appropriate. sure. independent thinking makes bad teens and worse adults. right.
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 11, 2013 14:58:12 GMT -5
You say that, but it's not true. You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you. This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent. As for the OP, I agree with the Texas GOP that OBE did have the sole purpose of undermining parental authority. If 'Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS)' is simply a rebranding of that, good on the legislators for taking a stand against it lest it accelerate the US's slide into the abyss even further. To heck with giving schools a mandate to gainsay values parents have passed on to their children and replace it with whatever dross the state thinks is appropriate. That's funny, I've never heard of a school telling their students they should ignore their parents, disobey their rules and do whatever the hell they want because no one is the boss of them. Must be something limited to Texas.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 15:03:15 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. Tell that to your kids. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. What schools can produce is critical individuals. Cynics. Children, teens, and adults that assume their rudimentary grasp of logic, semantics, and rhetoric gives them the right and ability to do as they please so long as they can exhaust any debate opponent (including parents) trying to speak truth to reason. And you're deluded if you don't think they could talk you under the table with 'perfectly logical' reasons they should be permitted to go to Joey's house. Stop embracing the illusion that critical thinking can be taught by any other means than instilling a love of learning in the learner, and stop repackaging the "talk your parents under the table" student toolkit under different names and using it as filler in your lackluster education system.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:03:47 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. precisely right. and they shouldn't play with the shotgun without training, or pull the cat's tail, or whatever....- juggle with grandma's jewelry. some authority is absolute, and legitimate. but questioning my THINKING is 100% on the table- as well it should be. i would consider myself a FAILURE as a parent if my son never questioned my reasoning, and even my rules. if they don't make sense, they should be changed. and because of that, my son will probably not flip me the bird and do shit on his own for a good number of years. because he knows that i can back up everything i ask him to do, and if i can't that we can discuss it, and if he makes a good case for it, i will change it. it is perfect training for the superego- a perfect way to ensure that he will never just follow orders. that is precisely what i expect from him.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:05:12 GMT -5
You say that, but it's not true. You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you. This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent. As for the OP, I agree with the Texas GOP that OBE did have the sole purpose of undermining parental authority. If 'Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS)' is simply a rebranding of that, good on the legislators for taking a stand against it lest it accelerate the US's slide into the abyss even further. To heck with giving schools a mandate to gainsay values parents have passed on to their children and replace it with whatever dross the state thinks is appropriate. That's funny, I've never heard of a school telling their students they should ignore their parents, disobey their rules and do whatever the hell they want because no one is the boss of them. Must be something limited to Texas. the opposite of acquiescence and submission is not DEFIANCE. it is thoughtful consideration and independent action, which may in fact be cooperation.
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Post by chiver78 on Feb 11, 2013 15:05:58 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. Tell that to your kids. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. What schools can produce is critical individuals. Cynics. Children, teens, and adults that assume their rudimentary grasp of logic, semantics, and rhetoric gives them the right and ability to do as they please so long as they can exhaust any debate opponent (including parents) trying to speak truth to reason. And you're deluded if you don't think they could talk you under the table with 'perfectly logical' reasons they should be permitted to go to Joey's house. Stop embracing the illusion that critical thinking can be taught by any other means than instilling a love of learning in the learner, and stop repackaging the "talk your parents under the table" student toolkit under different names and using it as filler in your lackluster education system. so you think that "instilling a love of learning," to use your words, isn't one of the responsibility of schools? I'd argue that anyone in a capacity to teach a child has a responsibility to instill a love of learning.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:06:24 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. Tell that to your kids. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. no, but it most certainly is a curiosity that can be marginalized and crushed. that is precisely what Texas wants to do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:09:44 GMT -5
Tell that to your kids. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. What schools can produce is critical individuals. Cynics. Children, teens, and adults that assume their rudimentary grasp of logic, semantics, and rhetoric gives them the right and ability to do as they please so long as they can exhaust any debate opponent (including parents) trying to speak truth to reason. And you're deluded if you don't think they could talk you under the table with 'perfectly logical' reasons they should be permitted to go to Joey's house. Stop embracing the illusion that critical thinking can be taught by any other means than instilling a love of learning in the learner, and stop repackaging the "talk your parents under the table" student toolkit under different names and using it as filler in your lackluster education system. so you think that "instilling a love of learning," to use your words, isn't one of the responsibility of schools? I'd argue that anyone in a capacity to teach a child has a responsibility to instill a love of learning. clearly, Texas only wants to instill a love of authority. i am open to the idea that this may be a party-wide problem.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 15:10:29 GMT -5
You want your children to respect the fact that you're wiser, more experienced, and that the ultimate parental authority rests with you. This doesn't mean that you won't discuss matters with your children, educate them, and even debate them on occasion. But when you put your foot down on a matter, you expect the incessant questioning, backbiting, and criticizing to stop. You are the parent. --------------- Do you have kids, Virgil? There's a world of difference between putting your foot down that you're not going to buy them a new iphone, and having a child question and understand philosophies. I WANT my child to do that. So teach the children the philosophies. I had philosophy class in high school. If you looked at the OBE mandate, that's absolutely not what was being taught. I don't know about HOTS. At any rate, I see I've already been called out twice for not having children, so I'll leave you ladies and gentlemen to it. And if OBE was about instilling a love of learning, we wouldn't be having this discussion. A love of parental authority is precisely what Texas, and the US as a whole, needs more of.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:17:01 GMT -5
a little aside.
my son recently got kicked off a school field trip for shooting rubber bands in class (strict school). he got kicked off of the same annual field trip LAST year because the SAME KID had engaged him in similar play.
last year, he moped around for months, expecting us to rise to his defense. it was not in our power to do so, and would have undermined the teacher's authority. we told him that if he wanted to go, he should make a case for it with his teacher.
it turns out that the other student's parents bartered with school officials, and that (last year) he was not given one week of suspension, but got to stay in school. our son was given the suspension, and his mom in particular was mad about not having defended him. and, truthfully, i thought he was disappointed in me, too. i told him that if he had requested me to rise to his defense, i would have- but that i would have done so by first telling his teacher that i was acting on his behalf, and that this in no way was me advocating for myself as a parent, as it was purely my son's concern. i trusted her judgment.
this year, because of our experience last year, we both offered to rise to his defense. you know what he said?
"don't do that. it was not his fault that i misbehaved, and not my fault that he misbehaved. whatever he chooses to do is his business, but as far as i am concerned, i am responsible for my own actions, and i don't want you acting on my behalf".
that is my 12 year old. THAT is the kind of questioning of authority i want. and i have never loved him more than i did in that moment, where he was the coolest head in the room.
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 11, 2013 15:17:38 GMT -5
Sure you can teach it.
One of my biology teachers used to present old scientific studies and challenge us to show the flaws in it.
One of them, I remember, stated that white people were smarter than black people because their brain pans were larger.
All the data was presented very neatly, in nice tables and looked very scientific.
It made a huge impression on me, so much so that I still remember her class thirty years later. People have an agenda, even scientists, sometimes. Don't believe everything you read, even if it's presented in nicely organized tables. Do your own research and investigate the motives of the people presenting their data as facts. If someone says 'trust me I know what I'm saying' - DON'T.
I raised my son this same way. Not to be cynical, but not to be gullible, either.
We don't need sheeple. We need people who can think for themselves.
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 15:19:34 GMT -5
So you do or don't want welfare queens teaching their kids to follow in their footsteps? I always get so confused on the official conservative idea of desirable parenting since they spend so much time bitching about how the poor aren't fit to parent and an equal amount of time bitching about schools trying to teach kids anything since they should all be learning from their parents instead. Can you clear that seeming contradiction up for me?
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:19:46 GMT -5
A love of parental authority is precisely what Texas, and the US as a whole, needs more of. submission to authority is what got us into Iraq. every great crime on the part of democratic states you can come up with is the same in this sense. they can only do it with the acquiescence of the electorate. unquestioning serves the interests of the elite very well.
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Post by swamp on Feb 11, 2013 15:22:15 GMT -5
So you do or don't want welfare queens teaching their kids to follow in their footsteps? I always get so confused on the official conservative idea of desirable parenting since they spend so much time bitching about how the poor aren't fit to parent and an equal amount of time bitching about schools trying to teach kids anything since they should all be learning from their parents instead. Can you clear that seeming contradiction up for me? we need love of parental authority of rich white people.
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 15:23:30 GMT -5
We already have that. It's called I'll cut you out of the will.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2013 15:24:42 GMT -5
incidentally, i STRONGLY submit that critical thinking does not undermine parental authority in the general case.
it ONLY undermines illegitimate parental authority. legitimate authority is STRENGTHENED by questioning.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 16:04:22 GMT -5
So you do or don't want welfare queens teaching their kids to follow in their footsteps? I always get so confused on the official conservative idea of desirable parenting since they spend so much time bitching about how the poor aren't fit to parent and an equal amount of time bitching about schools trying to teach kids anything since they should all be learning from their parents instead. Can you clear that seeming contradiction up for me? I haven't 'bitched' about the poor being unfit parents or about doing away with public schooling for one nanosecond of my time spent on NMSNM. Perhaps one of the fruits of your own critical thought will be to acknowledge the ideological makeup of the world is in fact more complex than 'conservative' and 'liberal'. Submission to the authority of the state is what got you into Iraq. Russian libraries are full of Soviet textbooks from brilliant communist thinkers who rightly pointed out that the authority of the state cannot become absolute until the authority of the parents is disestablished. In fact, undermining parental authority is the first and most important step of establishing the authoritarian state. One of the very reasons why both men and women under the Soviet regime were shunted off into factories to work grueling hours while their children were largely raised by state-run facilities. It was truly scientific in its construction. Their system collapsed. Within a few generations. They're now a backwater kleptocracy circling the drain. I don't know what OBE you're looking at, but the program I saw being implemented in Boston that was labelled "Outcome-Based Education" was an excuse not to teach students anything for 30 minutes while a litany of self-assessments made them feel good about doing whatever the heck it was they wanted to do. If that's what they call "critical thinking skills" since 1995, it's no wonder US education standards have fallen off a cliff.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 11, 2013 16:09:09 GMT -5
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