Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 16:11:56 GMT -5
Well, lots of terms are being thrown around and definitions might differ. My definition of critical thinking skills might be different than others. I do think there is a agenda being pushed by some on the left in schools.
I do think critical thinking skills (as I define it) should be taught. I even think a healthy questioning of authority is a good thing. Your beliefs and authority should be able to stand up to probing.
But as I said, some people may use "critical thinking skills" as a euphanism of pushing an agenda, for example, teaching elementary kids that homosexuality is okay and Christianity is bad. I don't think schools should be teaching kids values of what's okay and what's not okay. Especially at a young age.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 16:13:06 GMT -5
But you seem like a smart guy, so I don't think you're going to say with a straight face that the Republican party at large doesn't spend a lot of time bitching about the poor, are you? It does seem to come up quite a bit that one of the problems with this country are welfare queens, the 47%, those that are dependent on the government, or however the party wants to define them that day, raising kids that they aren't fit to raise which is breeding a generation of takers that outnumber the makers. Any of this ringing a bell? This is all coming from the same party that gets up in arms about schools teaching things that are the god given domain of the parents. Right? So, again, can you clear that seeming contradiction in party ideology up for me?
Is it the schools place to teach a third generation welfare recipient to stop listening to their whack ass parents and stay in school at 16 instead of cranking out a couple kids and signing up for welfare, or not?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 16:13:41 GMT -5
Speaking purely hypothetically, this is not true. For example, you'd probably never send your child to a Taliban brain-washing camp for fear that they might actually get brainwashed. The world is full of examples where impressionable minds have been screwed up when people "challenged their beliefs".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 16:16:16 GMT -5
Sure you can teach it. One of my biology teachers used to present old scientific studies and challenge us to show the flaws in it. One of them, I remember, stated that white people were smarter than black people because their brain pans were larger. All the data was presented very neatly, in nice tables and looked very scientific. It made a huge impression on me, so much so that I still remember her class thirty years later. People have an agenda, even scientists, sometimes. Don't believe everything you read, even if it's presented in nicely organized tables. Do your own research and investigate the motives of the people presenting their data as facts. If someone says 'trust me I know what I'm saying' - DON'T. I raised my son this same way. Not to be cynical, but not to be gullible, either. We don't need sheeple. We need people who can think for themselves. I'm curious. By the end of your class with this biology teacher, was there still some discord in the class as to the validity of the study, or was everybody in agreement that it was a flawed study? How many of your fellow students do you suppose looked up subsequent studies by the same authors, or looked into whether the presented data--though imperfect--was acceptable per the standard of scientific rigor of the time? How many of them had any clue about how to go about doing this? Yes, teaching students that science is fallible is an important first step to critical thinking, but it isn't critical thinking ipso facto. If your teacher shows a flawed study, hands you an out-of-the-box proof of its shortcomings, and then elicits a class consensus that the research is junk, you're no better off than when you started. You've exchanged one set of conclusions for another. The true critical thinkers in your class were the ones who presented that teacher with reports the next week showing how Dr. Brainpan et al. had published clarifications, errata, etc. to address certain shortcomings.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 16:18:35 GMT -5
I'm fine with sex ed, and learning about different cultures and even political science. Anyone who is strong in their beliefs should be able to learn about different cultures, science, or evidence that doesn't agree with their own.
But I'd get upset if my elmentary school kid came home and said they read "why does Julia have two mommies." That's not "critical thinking."
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 16:23:57 GMT -5
But you seem like a smart guy, so I don't think you're going to say with a straight face that the Republican party at large doesn't spend a lot of time bitching about the poor, are you? It does seem to come up quite a bit that one of the problems with this country are welfare queens, the 47%, those that are dependent on the government, or however the party wants to define them that day, raising kids that they aren't fit to raise which is breeding a generation of takers that outnumber the makers. Any of this ringing a bell? This is all coming from the same party that gets up in arms about schools teaching things that are the god given domain of the parents. Right? So, again, can you clear that seeming contradiction in party ideology up for me? Is it the schools place to teach a third generation welfare recipient to stop listening to their whack ass parents and stay in school at 16 instead of cranking out a couple kids and signing up for welfare, or not? Well again, what I saw being taught in Boston (granted that was back in 2007, I think) wasn't conducive to promoting hard work or reducing the number of "welfare queens". DJ seems to think quite highly of the program, hence I'm wondering what his personal experience with it has been. As for the GOP being the bane of the poor, I'll take your word for it. The term you used was 'conservatives', which goes far beyond the GOP. And being a staunch conservative myself, I'm not going to embrace a rebranding of OBE Boston just because it says "teaches critical thinking" on the label.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 16:35:21 GMT -5
To the OP topic. And i definitely want my kids to question me when we are coming to an conclusion. Now, in coming to a conclusion regarding things that impact me, my house, my responsibility as a parent... My ideas and say hold more weight. And once a conclusion is drawn on something like that, then I don't want to repeat myself unless there is some kind of new information.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 16:43:51 GMT -5
But you seem like a smart guy, so I don't think you're going to say with a straight face that the Republican party at large doesn't spend a lot of time bitching about the poor, are you? It does seem to come up quite a bit that one of the problems with this country are welfare queens, the 47%, those that are dependent on the government, or however the party wants to define them that day, raising kids that they aren't fit to raise which is breeding a generation of takers that outnumber the makers. Any of this ringing a bell? This is all coming from the same party that gets up in arms about schools teaching things that are the god given domain of the parents. Right? So, again, can you clear that seeming contradiction in party ideology up for me? Is it the schools place to teach a third generation welfare recipient to stop listening to their whack ass parents and stay in school at 16 instead of cranking out a couple kids and signing up for welfare, or not? You seem pretty keen to put words in other peoples' mouths. Maybe you could do with some critical thinking of what republicans and conservatives really believe rather than trying to cover everyone's political beliefs with blanket statements.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 16:45:27 GMT -5
To the OP topic. And i definitely want my kids to question me when we are coming to an conclusion. Now, in coming to a conclusion regarding things that impact me, my house, my responsibility as a parent... My ideas and say hold more weight. And once a conclusion is drawn on something like that, then I don't want to repeat myself unless there is some kind of new information. I'm sure the educators will be sure to point out to your kids that the "critical thinking" needs to stop and accepting your parents' wishes needs to kick in when either Mom or Dad say "I don't want to repeat myself unless there's some kind of new information".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 16:50:01 GMT -5
I can only go by what they put forth as their platform, attempt to legislate, and espouse in their daily statements....
what have you been reading?
i feel like the best thing I can teach my kids is how to assess a source, determine bias, fact check, I skew statistics, synthesize and evaluate. There is so much freakin 'information' available today... They really don't need to know know information... But how to access, judge and apply it effectively... Ie. think critically...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 16:51:25 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. I agrees with Virgil, on the issues of Critical thought.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 16:51:39 GMT -5
Quoting politicians who ostensibly speak for the party is putting words in people's mouths now? Are you saying that I made up the 47% thing? That I coined the phrase welfare queen? That I came up with the takers and makers terminology? Did I also force the Republican party to use those phrases during the recent campaign season? I sure am a powerful guy. You'd think I'd have more money...
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2013 16:51:42 GMT -5
I completely enjoyed "deep thoughts" conversations I had with my kiddo regarding my beliefs & why I have those beliefs. I believe that being able to question me & have these open, honest discussions led to him being able to stand up to teachers & question some of the things he was being taught. It also got him a fair amount of respect from certain teachers because he could back up why he felt a certain way about a topic beyond "because my parents said so" like 90% of the class.
We live in the Bible belt & to my frustration, all too often religion worked its way into the classroom & lesson. I fought against that for him thru elementary & middle school. In high school, he fought back against it on his own. Anytime religion turned up, he questioned why it was there & why it was being allowed. When he had to write papers on history & the topics would be "ancient religions" he always rocked the boat with the most off the wall religion he could find. Yes, I raised a little Liberal & it shows. When any kind of conservative politics was being discussed or used in a lesson (entirely too often IMO), he was the ONLY one to question it & to offer the other side (Liberal) to the discussion. One year he had a teacher that hated him for it, the next year, his teacher was impressed with it, even if she disagreed.
Here in Georgia the idea that "Liberals" are trying to brainwash kids in school is downright laughable. Georgia has no teachers union. I have yet to see a single Dem on a school board. Heck, last local election, there wasn't even a single Dem on the ballot. But I did see a lot of conservative values being pushed onto the kids & religion being taught in school. And that would be the nice Southern Baptist religion being taught...not any other religion, just Baptist.
It should also be pointed out that Texas literally re-wrote their own history books to remove certain historical figures that didn't spout religion & believed in separation of church & state. The entire board that voted on the re-write of Texas history textbooks was a RELIGIOUS group appointed by the Govn. If that doesn't scream "brainwashing" into a certain belief, I don't know what does.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 16:54:23 GMT -5
To the OP topic. And i definitely want my kids to question me when we are coming to an conclusion. Now, in coming to a conclusion regarding things that impact me, my house, my responsibility as a parent... My ideas and say hold more weight. And once a conclusion is drawn on something like that, then I don't want to repeat myself unless there is some kind of new information. I'm sure the educators will be sure to point out to your kids that the "critical thinking" needs to stop and accepting your parents' wishes needs to kick in when either Mom or Dad say "I don't want to repeat myself unless there's some kind of new information". I homeschool them. They seem to get it?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2013 17:00:15 GMT -5
Who'd've thunk? But nevertheless, an apt assessment. You taught your kid to be a critical, contentious, in-your-face 'little liberal'. You conveyed your system of values to your offspring. Don't for a moment construe that as your having gifted him with critical thought. Incidentally, why the capital 'L'? I don't blame you. And I imagine you'll have more and more company as parents get fed up with endless OBE rebrandings and take matters into their own hands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:00:29 GMT -5
The true critical thinkers in your class were the ones who presented that teacher with reports the next week showing how Dr. Brainpan et al. had published clarifications, errata, etc. to address certain shortcomings.
That I believe to be true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:03:38 GMT -5
Rise in human's mind is can't not be bought by text book.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2013 17:04:56 GMT -5
I have nothing to say to you Virgil....I just can't click a button to ignore you. So just skip my posts completely....thank you in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:07:07 GMT -5
Steff, I thought of you when we were reading pastafarian essays earlier this year... That was you, right?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 17:07:31 GMT -5
Quoting politicians who ostensibly speak for the party is putting words in people's mouths now? Are you saying that I made up the 47% thing? That I coined the phrase welfare queen? That I came up with the takers and makers terminology? Did I also force the Republican party to use those phrases during the recent campaign season? I sure am a powerful guy. You'd think I'd have more money... You're just saying the words, parroting the phrases and not grasping the meaning behind them. You're also failing to acknowledge that many republicans disagree with each other, just like Christians disagree with each other. For example, your 47% thing is not a dig against the poor, but the politicians who set up the system so that people don't pay their fair share of taxes. Tell you what, I'll answer your questions when you can get me to understand why a woman should be able to choose to abort her baby but she shouldn't be able to choose to not have health insurance or a pay a fine, or why an illegal immigrant should be able to get in state tuition but I shouldn't be able to if I'm not a resident of that state.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2013 17:11:27 GMT -5
Steffens, I thought of you when we were reading pastafarian essays earlier this year... That was you, right? yes it was! My kiddo did a report on The Flying Spaghetti Monster for one of his "religious" papers in school. The teacher LOVED it because he thought outside of the box & didn't compromise his own (lack of) belief just to write a paper for school. My kiddo actually took my beliefs one step further in most cases. I'm not an atheist, but he is. Last year was his first year to vote & he voted Independent, where I voted Dem. I'm very proud of him because he can vocalize why he feels a certain way about topics...from religion, to politics, to PED's in sports. He can think of his feet & has never had to fall back on a lame "because my parents said so or believe that" excuse.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 17:13:03 GMT -5
I completely enjoyed "deep thoughts" conversations I had with my kiddo regarding my beliefs & why I have those beliefs. I believe that being able to question me & have these open, honest discussions led to him being able to stand up to teachers & question some of the things he was being taught. It also got him a fair amount of respect from certain teachers because he could back up why he felt a certain way about a topic beyond "because my parents said so" like 90% of the class. We live in the Bible belt & to my frustration, all too often religion worked its way into the classroom & lesson. I fought against that for him thru elementary & middle school. In high school, he fought back against it on his own. Anytime religion turned up, he questioned why it was there & why it was being allowed. When he had to write papers on history & the topics would be "ancient religions" he always rocked the boat with the most off the wall religion he could find. Yes, I raised a little Liberal & it shows. When any kind of conservative politics was being discussed or used in a lesson (entirely too often IMO), he was the ONLY one to question it & to offer the other side (Liberal) to the discussion. One year he had a teacher that hated him for it, the next year, his teacher was impressed with it, even if she disagreed. Here in Georgia the idea that "Liberals" are trying to brainwash kids in school is downright laughable. Georgia has no teachers union. I have yet to see a single Dem on a school board. Heck, last local election, there wasn't even a single Dem on the ballot. But I did see a lot of conservative values being pushed onto the kids & religion being taught in school. And that would be the nice Southern Baptist religion being taught...not any other religion, just Baptist. It should also be pointed out that Texas literally re-wrote their own history books to remove certain historical figures that didn't spout religion & believed in separation of church & state. The entire board that voted on the re-write of Texas history textbooks was a RELIGIOUS group appointed by the Govn. If that doesn't scream "brainwashing" into a certain belief, I don't know what does. Don't forget Steff, lots of people misquote the bible and never try to understand how conservatives and/or Christians think. Lack of critical thinking doesn't apply to one group or another. Did your Son make a big beef of Islam when it came up in school, or Hinduism? I guess not.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 11, 2013 17:14:57 GMT -5
I have nothing to say to you Virgil....I just can't click a button to ignore you. So just skip my posts completely....thank you in advance. LOL! You say how you are so open minded and taught your Son to be a critical thinker, yet when Virgil says something that you don't agree with, instead of engaging in logical debate and critical thinking, you just say "I don't have anything to say to you" and to just "skip my posts completely." Priceless, liberals are so closed minded sometimes, I wish some of them would practice critical thinking more.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:15:48 GMT -5
Quoting politicians who ostensibly speak for the party is putting words in people's mouths now? Are you saying that I made up the 47% thing? That I coined the phrase welfare queen? That I came up with the takers and makers terminology? Did I also force the Republican party to use those phrases during the recent campaign season? I sure am a powerful guy. You'd think I'd have more money... You're just saying the words and not grasphing the meaning behind them. You're also failing to acknowledge that many republicans disagree with each other, just like Christians disagree with each other. For example, your 47% thing is not a dig against the poor, but the politicians who set up the system so that people don't pay their fair share of taxes. Who knows, Phoenix. I like to knows it, too.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2013 17:19:29 GMT -5
I live in the Bible Belt, Islam NEVER came up in class....not even when they studied the Middle East. But when they studied ancient Middle East, he got a great Bible lesson in class. Go figure.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2013 17:20:29 GMT -5
I have nothing to say to you Virgil....I just can't click a button to ignore you. So just skip my posts completely....thank you in advance. LOL! You say how you are so open minded and taught your Son to be a C=critical thinker, yet when Virgil says something that you don't agree with, instead of engaging in logical debate and critical thinking, you just say "I don't have anything to say to you" and to just "skip my posts completely." Priceless, liberals are so closed minded sometimes, I wish some of them would practice critical thinking more. My beef with Virgil has nothing to do with this conversation. Don't assume to know why I said that because you don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:21:13 GMT -5
I don't know that Islam or Hinduism ever came up in my public school education? Maybe to define them loosely and briefly? I learned about the Islamic Empire the first time I presented it to my kids, when they were about 6/8... We didn't do a lot of world, or modern, history when I was in school. They nailed our civil war though!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:24:34 GMT -5
I don't know that Islam or Hinduism ever came up in my public school education? Maybe to define them loosely and briefly? I learned about the Islamic Empire the first time I presented it to my kids, when they were about 6/8... We didn't do a lot of world, or modern, history when I was in school. They nailed our civil war though! Just Google it, you will find all kind's of informations.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2013 17:25:09 GMT -5
I'm not saying them. I'm putting them in other people's mouths, remember? If you're having trouble following your own line of argument in this thread I can quote your posts for you.
It's not my 47% thing. That's Mitt's turd to polish, I'm not doing it for him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2013 17:27:31 GMT -5
dark, It's not my 47% thing. That's Mitt's turd to polish, I'm not doing it for him. Mitt's is long gone. | |
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