fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Dec 23, 2012 21:26:03 GMT -5
I think we passed the cliff some time ago, the only thing left to do is decide how hard we will hit the ground. The promises that governments are making to their electorates are not just misleading: they are unforgivably dishonest. It will not be possible to go on as we are, or to return to the expectations that we once had. The immediate emergency created by the crash of 2008 was not some temporary blip in the infinitely expanding growth of the beneficent state. It was, in fact, almost irrelevant to the larger truth which it happened, by coincidence, to bring into view. Government on the scale established in most modern western countries is simply unaffordable. notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=29356&page=2
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 23, 2012 21:42:14 GMT -5
so, what is the consensus? how do i make a survey for this?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 23, 2012 21:48:31 GMT -5
What a shame, to ruin his millions of dollars Hawaii vacation.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 23, 2012 21:51:14 GMT -5
What a shame, to ruin his millions of dollars Hawaii vacation. yeah. it must suck being him.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 24, 2012 16:56:41 GMT -5
interesting article in The New Republic today: www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111427/scorpion-frog-and-fiscal-cliff#the basic gist of it is that if Obama has the fortitude to let us go over the fiscal cliff, he can RIGHTLY characterize anything he does after that as a "tax cut". it would be really strategically smart, in other words. furthermore, his odds of getting something passed goes UP on January 21st, when the second term starts. in other words, he has almost no incentive to barter for concessions. especially now that Plan B has gone up in smoke. if he is smart, he will spend the next week playing golf in Hawaii. there is nothing to be gained by him returning to DC. but i am betting he will, because he loves making concessions to people that hate him.
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dumdeedoe
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Post by dumdeedoe on Dec 24, 2012 18:21:58 GMT -5
Its really only half a cliff, we still need another 600 billion in cuts to break even...
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Dec 25, 2012 0:38:09 GMT -5
what kind of ding dong would suggest the Obama could negotiate with a party that cannot even negotiate within its own ranks
repubs can whine about Obama not negotiating but they have no intent to negotiate ... they only want to dictate
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 0:54:53 GMT -5
Its really only half a cliff, we still need another 600 billion in cuts to break even... true. but you have to admit- if it sticks it would be one helluva downpayment.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 14:26:47 GMT -5
just read on the wire a few minutes ago that there are no talks planned until "just before New Year".
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 19:53:55 GMT -5
Well if they wait until the new year, the Dems will have a few more seats in the house, 201 total, with 218 needed for a majority. Are there 17 moderate Republicans in the house, or are they all right wing? I ask because I don't know. There are no Republicans left in Congress from New England. let me put it this way. there are 20-40 Republicans who care more about getting this deal done than putting the country in a recession. Are there any moderate Democrats are are they all left wing?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 19:56:35 GMT -5
interesting article in The New Republic today: www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111427/scorpion-frog-and-fiscal-cliff#the basic gist of it is that if Obama has the fortitude to let us go over the fiscal cliff, he can RIGHTLY characterize anything he does after that as a "tax cut". it would be really strategically smart, in other words. furthermore, his odds of getting something passed goes UP on January 21st, when the second term starts. in other words, he has almost no incentive to barter for concessions. especially now that Plan B has gone up in smoke. if he is smart, he will spend the next week playing golf in Hawaii. there is nothing to be gained by him returning to DC. but i am betting he will, because he loves making concessions to people that hate him. There is nothing to prevent Republicans from allowing us to go over the "financial cliff" and then proposing a tax bill that keeps rates where they are on everybody making under a certain amount. Real cuts will get made in this case at a very minimum.
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on Dec 25, 2012 20:15:06 GMT -5
I believe that Obama is not going to move from tax cuts for only those above $400,000. I also believe that if the Republicans think that they can raise that to $1 M, or more, they are making a big mistake. Obama has already thrown seniors under the bus, by agreeing to a lower COLA for SS (in spite of the fact that they already got no COLA for two of the years of his presidency). He also has moved from his original figure of $250,000. He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style of 'negotiating with himself".
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Dec 25, 2012 20:32:41 GMT -5
I believe that Obama is not going to move from tax cuts for only those above $400,000. I also believe that if the Republicans think that they can raise that to $1 M, or more, they are making a big mistake. Obama has already thrown seniors under the bus, by agreeing to a lower COLA for SS (in spite of the fact that they already got no COLA for two of the years of his presidency). He also has moved from his original figure of $250,000. He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style of 'negotiating with himself". Actually he has already won his election..as far as this thought.. "He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style " not from this supporter and as the polls and commentators seemed to have figured out..so far the majority of the blame is on the other side..real stupid of them actually.. We'll have to see in two years , see how those elections go and do expect he and his party to come up with something after the new year..actually after new Congress and he are sworn in..some definite cuts in some entitlements, and taxes on wealthy moved to something along the line that his proposed... $400,000...probably not at $400,000though....they, Pubs , had their shot there . I am thinking more along the lines of $350,000 / $379,000... POTUS have to show that one screws with them at their own peril...not saying its the smart way of dealing with problems but for those in power, no matter who, what party..there is a price to pay when you give one of them a hard time..Obama is no different in that regard...as it should be IMHO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 20:36:17 GMT -5
I believe that Obama is not going to move from tax cuts for only those above $400,000. I also believe that if the Republicans think that they can raise that to $1 M, or more, they are making a big mistake. Obama has already thrown seniors under the bus, by agreeing to a lower COLA for SS (in spite of the fact that they already got no COLA for two of the years of his presidency). He also has moved from his original figure of $250,000. He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style of 'negotiating with himself". Prez O's constituents have become enured to being "trickled down on" for thirty years. As such, I think it likely that they will find it a small reach to cut the Prez some slack. But Prez O's detractors will exploit any and every opportunity to sabotage his presidency. They publicly avowed their intention to "make him a one-term president" four years ago. Despite having failed at that task, they'll return to their playbook Politics of Fear-mongering and Spite. And Americans will go on paying the price for the republi-con-jobbers' saboteur tactics.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 21:47:15 GMT -5
interesting article in The New Republic today: www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111427/scorpion-frog-and-fiscal-cliff#the basic gist of it is that if Obama has the fortitude to let us go over the fiscal cliff, he can RIGHTLY characterize anything he does after that as a "tax cut". it would be really strategically smart, in other words. furthermore, his odds of getting something passed goes UP on January 21st, when the second term starts. in other words, he has almost no incentive to barter for concessions. especially now that Plan B has gone up in smoke. if he is smart, he will spend the next week playing golf in Hawaii. there is nothing to be gained by him returning to DC. but i am betting he will, because he loves making concessions to people that hate him. There is nothing to prevent Republicans from allowing us to go over the "financial cliff" and then proposing a tax bill that keeps rates where they are on everybody making under a certain amount. Real cuts will get made in this case at a very minimum. i am not convinced you are watching this battle very closely. the GOP will NEVER....mark my words...NEVER make such a proposal. the Democrats might, but the GOP won't. and if such a bill is presented to them by Harry Reid, it will NEVER pass the GOP lead congress. ONLY a bill with massive cuts will.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 21:50:24 GMT -5
let me put it this way. there are 20-40 Republicans who care more about getting this deal done than putting the country in a recession. Are there any moderate Democrats are are they all left wing? there are 14 blue dogs, mostly from the South. other than that, this is the most liberal Democratic party since 1900. of course, on the other side of the fence, the GOP has NEVER been this conservative....EVER.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 22:10:09 GMT -5
Are there any moderate Democrats are are they all left wing? there are 14 blue dogs, mostly from the South. other than that, this is the most liberal Democratic party since 1900. of course, on the other side of the fence, the GOP has NEVER been this conservative....EVER.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 22:10:56 GMT -5
there are 14 blue dogs, mostly from the South. other than that, this is the most liberal Democratic party since 1900. of course, on the other side of the fence, the GOP has NEVER been this conservative....EVER. what?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 22:12:53 GMT -5
I believe that Obama is not going to move from tax cuts for only those above $400,000. I also believe that if the Republicans think that they can raise that to $1 M, or more, they are making a big mistake. Obama has already thrown seniors under the bus, by agreeing to a lower COLA for SS (in spite of the fact that they already got no COLA for two of the years of his presidency). He also has moved from his original figure of $250,000. He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style of 'negotiating with himself". Actually he has already won his election..as far as this thought.. "He is on the verge of losing respect from his constituency for going back to his old style " not from this supporter and as the polls and commentators seemed to have figured out..so far the majority of the blame is on the other side..real stupid of them actually..We'll have to see in two years , see how those elections go and do expect he and his party to come up with something after the new year..actually after new Congress and he are sworn in..some definite cuts in some entitlements, and taxes on wealthy moved to something along the line that his proposed... $400,000...probably not at $400,000though....they, Pubs , had their shot there . I am thinking more along the lines of $350,000 / $379,000... POTUS have to show that one screws with them at their own peril...not saying its the smart way of dealing with problems but for those in power, no matter who, what party..there is a price to pay when you give one of them a hard time..Obama is no different in that regard...as it should be IMHO. Of course Dems are going to blame Republicans and the Republicans are going to blame Dems. In two years people will realize that it's not all the Republicans fault as some keep saying (I can only guess they figure if you say it enough, it'll make it true).
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 22:16:20 GMT -5
Every time we have an election and the two sides can't seem to agree, people want to say they are the most conservative or liberal in years. I didn't really start following politics much before 2001, but since that time I've seen a lack of professionalism while each side attempts to demonize the other instead of working together. When one side gets control, the side who is in the minority seems to not want things to get too good before the next election in hopes of gaining a majority. When the next election rolls around, the cycle repeats. People seem to not realize that you can see the exact same issue and have a different opinion on the best way to address the issue.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 25, 2012 22:35:02 GMT -5
Every time we have an election and the two sides can't seem to agree, people want to say they are the most conservative or liberal in years. i have never made that claim before this election cycle, so i really wouldn't know. but i can absolutely back that claim up.I didn't really start following politics much before 2001, but since that time I've seen a lack of professionalism while each side attempts to demonize the other instead of working together. When one side gets control, the side who is in the minority seems to not want things to get too good before the next election in hopes of gaining a majority. When the next election rolls around, the cycle repeats. People seem to not realize that you can see the exact same issue and have a different opinion on the best way to address the issue. oh i realize that quite well. but i stand by what i said. it is a fact, and it is a problem, imo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 22:36:56 GMT -5
Obama has had 4 yrs to come up with some plan and budget. So where is it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 22:58:47 GMT -5
Message deleted by mmhmm. Discuss the subject, patience, not the posters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 23:01:25 GMT -5
Huh? I guess it is too much to expect leadership from leaders?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Dec 25, 2012 23:26:11 GMT -5
Every time we have an election and the two sides can't seem to agree, people want to say they are the most conservative or liberal in years. i have never made that claim before this election cycle, so i really wouldn't know. but i can absolutely back that claim up.I didn't really start following politics much before 2001, but since that time I've seen a lack of professionalism while each side attempts to demonize the other instead of working together. When one side gets control, the side who is in the minority seems to not want things to get too good before the next election in hopes of gaining a majority. When the next election rolls around, the cycle repeats. People seem to not realize that you can see the exact same issue and have a different opinion on the best way to address the issue. oh i realize that quite well. but i stand by what i said. it is a fact, and it is a problem, imo. I would say Democrats were pretty liberal in the 1930's when a lot of the government social programs came into being. As for Republicans, saying they are more conservative than any other time is also an exaggeration IMO.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 26, 2012 0:14:24 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 26, 2012 1:28:15 GMT -5
Obama has had 4 yrs to come up with some plan and budget. So where is it? presidential budgets are non-binding. it is always surprising to me when they get credit for them. congress generally ignores them- this one more than most. an Obama budget is as pointless as a Shooby budget.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 26, 2012 1:28:55 GMT -5
oh i realize that quite well. but i stand by what i said. it is a fact, and it is a problem, imo. I would say Democrats were pretty liberal in the 1930's when a lot of the government social programs came into being. As for Republicans, saying they are more conservative than any other time is also an exaggeration IMO. you are entitled to your opinion. can you back it up?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 3:23:10 GMT -5
Obama has had 4 yrs to come up with some plan and budget. So where is it? presidential budgets are non-binding. it is always surprising to me when they get credit for them. congress generally ignores them- this one more than most. an Obama budget is as pointless as a Shooby budget. Not at all. Because in the Shooby bugdget I actually live on what i make or less and can save the rest. I could borrow and live on tomorrow but i don't because i don't have the legal right to thievery to go steal my neighbor's goods and fruits of their labor. If i could simply do as the govt, then i would have no reason NOT to live on credit and simply walk next door and take what i need and call it a "tax" for the privilege of being my neighbor.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Dec 26, 2012 5:17:37 GMT -5
presidential budgets are non-binding. it is always surprising to me when they get credit for them. congress generally ignores them- this one more than most. an Obama budget is as pointless as a Shooby budget. Not at all. Because in the Shooby bugdget I actually live on what i make or less and can save the rest. I could borrow and live on tomorrow but i don't because i don't have the legal right to thievery to go steal my neighbor's goods and fruits of their labor. If i could simply do as the govt, then i would have no reason NOT to live on credit and simply walk next door and take what i need and call it a "tax" for the privilege of being my neighbor. Very good principals to live by Shooby..can't argue against them..however, for most of us..many of us...majority of us or how ever one has to look at it...we expect and actually want the government{s} , local, State..national..to be responsible for more then just our selves..thus we get national disasters, Defense, Health, Post Office , taking care of the indigent as best it can, and on and on and on...and to do this there are taxes to be raised or programs to be cut...Seems we do neither..Taxes are not raised enough..programs are not curtailed enough..to get there one has to sit down and work out where those elected by the voters can agree on what to raise and what to cut..to do this, since there are many different views on how to do this usually normal people would compromise and give in in some areas and hold firm on others and battle back and forth until they come up with a program that most likely neither is fully in favor of but something, by holding their nose they can live with and usually turns out, no matter how the different parties feel about it specifically is a pretty good one from the country's and the majority of the citizens best interests.. That just doesn't seem to be happening here though it looks like Obama is cutting his vacation short and heading back to Washington..which I am thinking that means Congress too will be heading back to Washington..and the only reason for that that I can see is that he knows this is a important problem to try and solve..hopefully the other side feels the same way...
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