Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Nov 13, 2012 9:16:12 GMT -5
My mom just got her shingles vaccine the other day. I know so many people who have gotten shingles. My mom had it at Christmas four years ago. She was miserable. She does not want to get it again. Looking into this myself. My aunt caught shingles and she was utterly miserable. Personally, I've been miserable enough this past year to last a lifetime, shingles would add insult to injury! I'm so uninterested in getting shingles that I already asked if I could get the vaccine at 40. The pharmacist said I couldn't get it until I was 50 or something. My mom had shingles a few years back and she was utterly miserable. I really, really don't want any part of that!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 9:38:25 GMT -5
People don't trust scientists to be objective. And in fairness, scientists are no more and no less honest and ethical than the rest of mankind.
Add to that a growing corpus of literature suggesting there may be unintended side effects to jerking around the human immune system, or the fact that our society is increasingly riddled with aggressive cancers, genetic defects, autism, severe allergies, etc. for indeterminate reasons, "just trust me" from a pharma-funded scientist doesn't carry the weight it once did. :-\
I believe most vaccinations are prudent. My personal exception would be vaccinating against the flu, which I consider reckless overkill as well as waste of money.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Nov 13, 2012 9:54:56 GMT -5
You would rather that your child picks up a potentially deadly disease than develop a learning disability? What about the children and adult your child spreads that disease to? Would you prefer one of them die than to expose your child to the "unkown possibility" of autism?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 13, 2012 9:57:17 GMT -5
People don't trust scientists to be objective. And in fairness, scientists are no more and no less honest and ethical than the rest of mankind. Add to that a growing corpus of literature suggesting there may be unintended side effects to jerking around the human immune system, or the fact that our society is increasingly riddled with aggressive cancers, genetic defects, autism, severe allergies, etc. for indeterminate reasons, "just trust me" from a pharma-funded scientist doesn't carry the weight it once did. :-\ I believe most vaccinations are prudent. My personal exception would be vaccinating against the flu, which I consider reckless overkill as well as waste of money. Unfortunately, you are correct. However, for those of us in non-pharma research, the repercussions are waaay more severe. Secondly, none of the above list has ever been associated with immunization. Autism has been studied every way since Sunday and there is no link found. Severe allergies are currently being attributed to an UNDER utilized immune system (hygiene theory). Finally, there was a study done about 15 years ago. Immunizing employees for the flu winds up being incredibly cost effective for employers (which is why many provide free flu shots). If I was home, I'd post the journal the article was in, but the data was incredibly compelling from a financial standpoint. They factored in time lost, cost of doctor visits, prescriptions and OTC meds, lost time when employee's children caught the flu from the parent and a few more things I forgot. I caught the flu once. Never again. I was in college and there were roughly 2 weeks where I wanted to die.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 10:08:02 GMT -5
We have mandatory flu vaccinations here. We're a hospital and a university attached to the hospital. We come in contact with patients all the time. It's far more cost effective to have us all vaccinated in the terms Mich is talking about and also more cost effective for patients. And herd immunity doesn't automatically mean everyone lives in a protective bubble. We've had huge outbreaks lately in my county of pertussis because there are big enough segments of the population that are not vaccinated. You are putting others at risk when you don't vaccinate. I read a case in Th Panic Virus about a baby girl that died. She was only 2 months old so she had not recieved the DTap yet. Her sister came in contact with an unvaccinated kid at school. Didn't matter that hte sister was vaccinated, pertussis is so contagious it came home on her clothing. The newborn caught it and died. All because one parent chose not to vaccinate. But that apparently does not matter becasue after all it is not your kid. In the Panic Virus the author mentions that perhaps the vaccination program has been TOO good. We've eliminated most of these diseases. Back when your kid faced serious complications or death you didn't sit around and debate about things like autism, you choose to keep yoru kid from potenitally ending up in an iron lung. Now we have the time to sit and read psuedoscience and debate. We take for granted that we don't know how horrible these diseaes are and we have become lax. We have decided that maybe it is "not so bad" to not vaccinate because we still have a very large segement of the population with natural immunity and a large population of vaccinated people. That won't last though and cracks are already forming in the wall. I really doubt that when someone's child is in an iron lung that the first thing the parents will say is "Thank god he at least didn't have autism". It probably won't happen in our lifetime, but it will potentially happen in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime. I will be spitting and dancing on Dr. Wakefiled's grave someday. The damage he has done is immeasurable and despite over two decades worth of research his bullshit still won't die and for some reason is only getting stronger.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 10:15:50 GMT -5
Some people's Antiestablishmentarianism runs deep.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 10:21:19 GMT -5
I know a number of posters have said the same thing.
I've had the flu dozens of times (different variants, obviously), and it's never been more than a mild inconvenience.
I don't happen to believe there is one. But you of all people should know that long term effects where "long term" is greater than 9-16 months is practically opaque to medical science. Confounding factors grow faster than exponentially with the passage of time.
The only compelling studies I've seen are those that use large, unvaccinated (for whatever reason) populations from decades ago as a control group. These studies are compelling, as I say. At the same time, they're useless for determining vaccine linkages to any number of other potential problems.
I know. But vaccinating ourselves against the sniffles year after year could well be part of that, no?
Let's just say that a virus has to be worse than the sniffles for me to pump a slurry of animal protein and irradiated genetic detritus directly into my veins. :-\
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 10:23:14 GMT -5
Virgil you might like the book The Panic Virus. He does a really good job of breaking the whole debate down.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 13, 2012 10:23:17 GMT -5
I will be spitting and dancing on Dr. Wakefiled's grave someday. The damage he has done is immeasurable and despite over two decades worth of research his bullshit still won't die and for some reason is only getting stronger.
I would love to know how much research $$ were expended to refute his data. I'm sure it was millions, if not billions. Can you imagine how much better off we'd be if that $$ could have been used to truly examine the causes of autism, rather than damage control?
Interesting study, if anyone wants to undertake it..... I'm an AF brat whose parent was stationed overseas. Back in the 1960s, the list of immunizations that were required for dependents was substantial. Along with being reimmunized against the standards (I was immunized against smallpox 4x!), I also got typhoid, typhus, yellow fever, cholera (all were 2-3 immunizations). All of these were in a relatively short time, like 2 months. Since this was done on the military dime, all of these records are available. And finally, I KNOW that the vaccines were in multi use vials (thus containing preservatives) because I remember watching the doc draw each vaccine out for the 4 of us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 10:24:29 GMT -5
Mmmmmmm.......irradiated genetic detritus slurry........
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 13, 2012 10:26:53 GMT -5
I don't happen to believe there is one. But you of all people should know that long term effects where "long term" is greater than 9-16 months is practically opaque to medical science. Confounding factors grow faster than exponentially with the passage of time.
Wakefield's work was done in 1996. The body of data refuting it is approaching 20 years, not 20 months.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 10:27:17 GMT -5
Considering it was over two decades before they publically announced they were recalling his article, probably billions of dollars. Not to mention the time devoted to it becuase they had to be damn sure that they had so much data that his one paper would be left in the dirt. There had to be multiple studies done by independent scientists all over the world. Think of how much could have been done if that time had been able to be invested elsewhere. Yet Wakefield still continues to have a stranglehold. I hope the money he got being an 'expert" witness was worth it. He can't take it with him where I hope he's going. ONE flipping paper against THOUSANDS of papers spanning the world and decades. And the kicker is his research was so shitty that even a high school student should be able to recognize that it was a bunch of bullshit.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 10:27:50 GMT -5
Virgil you might like the book The Panic Virus. He does a really good job of breaking the whole debate down. I shall add it to my reading list.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 13, 2012 10:30:25 GMT -5
The flu vaccination must be different in Canada. In the US, it's not into the vein, but a simple subcutaneous jab. Probably no worse an insult than the nasty slurry one is exposed to when one gets a tiny cut on the toe from a shell on the beach...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Nov 13, 2012 10:30:47 GMT -5
Well, that's just your opinion. Seriously amazed (and horrified) by this thread. But thank you Drama and Mich for the education!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 10:31:19 GMT -5
Testing for autism specifically, I agree with you. That's one possible linkage down, ninety-nine million left to go. Maybe it is a jab. I've never had it. All the vaccinations I have had have been injections. That's not unlike saying "Probably no better than the nasty slurry one is exposed to from the tiny bite of a black widow spider." The importance is what's being injected. Not the quantity. I don't expect the same effect from exposure to the environment as to exposure to irradiated virus proteins as to a black widow's venom.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 10:37:31 GMT -5
Well, that's just your opinion. Virgil, I kinda agree with your premise, but the majority of these vaccinations have been in use for decades. If there were serious issues they would have been found already. I'll go back to what he said in the panic virus about risks. When you faced the real possibility that yoru child's mild fever could end up being polio whatever risks the vaccinations had, no matter how small were irrevalant compared to the very real fear of polio. Now we don't have to be afraid of polio. So we can sit and debate even the tinniest details when it comes to the vaccination program. I faced the very real possibility Gwen had contracted pertussis. She wasn't finished with her vaccinations and she developed a really nasty cough. We ran her in and our pediatrican couldn't tell if it was croup or pertussis. As I mentioned we're at record level outbreaks in my county right now. Fortunately it ended up being croup but I spent several days out of my mind because if it had been pertussis things could have gone south very quickly. Why ANYONE would chose to live with that kind of fear is beyond me. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) at this time most people don't and won't experience that type of fear, but it's coming. Our county hasn't seen an outbreak of pertussis this severe in over 20 years. So it's coming. And those most at risk are those that haven't been vaccinated yet because they are too little. I have been following the CDC recommended schedule and never planned not to, but whooping cough was almost able to slip in right under my radar.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 10:42:01 GMT -5
And another very large threat to our herd immunity most people don't consider when choosing not to vaccinate is our very large problem with illegal immigration (and not just from Mexico).
These people aren't coming in vaccinated.
DH works with a very large, mostly illegal, workforce. I pushed him to get the Dtap booster because in our case the biggest possible threat to Gwen was him bringing home something from work.
So the pool of unvaccinated people isn't as small as we want to think it is, it's getting bigger from the outside.
Something to consider when choosing not to vaccinate your kids. That guy in Wal-mart might be a boarder jumper who brought over with him God's knows what. Now you are going to bring it home to your kid.
Doesn't matter you are keeping the kid segreated from visitors or that you know your neighbors/friends are vaccinated. There is a very large population of peopel who are not vaccinated and you don't even know it.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Nov 13, 2012 10:52:02 GMT -5
People don't trust scientists to be objective. And in fairness, scientists are no more and no less honest and ethical than the rest of mankind. Add to that a growing corpus of literature suggesting there may be unintended side effects to jerking around the human immune system, or the fact that our society is increasingly riddled with aggressive cancers, genetic defects, autism, severe allergies, etc. for indeterminate reasons, "just trust me" from a pharma-funded scientist doesn't carry the weight it once did. :-\ I believe most vaccinations are prudent. My personal exception would be vaccinating against the flu, which I consider reckless overkill as well as waste of money. I agree with Virgil, and we don't completely follow the official vax schedule. I believe immune systems need to be challenged to be as strong as they can be. I wonder what happens to people on a macro level if we have shots to prevent everything. I haven't given my kids the Chicken Pox shot. I'm waiting until they are 16ish or so to try and catch it naturally so they can build immunity naturally. If they don't get it by then, I'll get them the vax as CP on adults is far worse than it is on kids. I also don't do flu shots. My family is pretty healthy (no one has ever gotten pneumonia or bronchitis) so I feel relatively safe exposing their systems to the flu. Now, if they were weaker or had asthma or were prone to pneumonia, I'd probably act differently. But I don't believe there is (or should be) a one size fits all when it comes to this issue.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 13, 2012 10:53:32 GMT -5
I know a number of posters have said the same thing. I've had the flu dozens of times (different variants, obviously), and it's never been more than a mild inconvenience. ems. same here. I work for the Fire Dept. I can get free flu shots. I think I've gotten 2 in the 6 years I've been here. Now if they had something for the non-productive cough I seem to be getting every winter, I'd be first in line...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 10:55:01 GMT -5
I agree the vaccination is worth the risk for most diseases. The only one I object to is the common flu, but even with that I think it's a prudent idea to vaccinate yourself against it if it makes you deathly ill.
We can't say this with any confidence. As the duration of a study increases, the ability to control a population (and more importantly, account for confounding factors) goes to zero extremely quickly. Moreover, if a problem is a combination of factors (say, vaccine X plus recessive gene Y equals 45% increased risk of cancer Z), the possibility of obtaining definitive proof of even a tiny fraction of these linkages is infinitesimal.
You'll never convince me that "if there were serious issues they would have been found already". My profession is probability and stochastic systems. I know better.
What I do believe, like you, is that the reward is often worth the risk. Vaccines are worth the risk, given the current state of the art of medical research.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Nov 13, 2012 10:58:40 GMT -5
I got my Dtap recently. I'm amazed how many people focus on their children's vaxes but don't keep up with their own (myself included). I had to get a tetanus for DS's cub scout camp and couldn't remember when I had last had one. In talking with my friends (some of whom are massively pro-vax for their kids) they also couldn't remember when they had their last vaxes either. It certainly doesn't come up with regular adult physicals. If this issue is so important, you'd think the medical community would be more consistent.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 13, 2012 10:59:01 GMT -5
I think that what many people do not understand is that we carry these infectious bugs as a matter of course. Unlike smallpox, where there is no known vector, most of the bugs that are causing these emerging diseases have many other vectors other than humans. Polio virus is found in many rivers and streams, it has not gone anywhere, just does not have the opportunity to cause disease anymore.
The immunization program has done too good a job, such that there is a whole generation who does not remember childhood illnesses.
And about influenza, there is a local old cemetery where we used to walk. We got to looking at the dates on the tombstones, and there were an incredible number of deaths of young people between 1918 and 1919, most likely due to the flu.
If you consider that the most likely cause of death from the flu is secondary BACTERIAL infections, then people SHOULD be damned scared. Right now, antibiotic resistance is at an all time high. The flu might not kill you, but the flu weakened your immune system to allow MRSA infect you.....and kill you.
And to go along with what Drama said as to illegal immigrants (again, not necessarily Mexicans), the bug that scares the crap out of me is TB....mainly because this version of TB is resistant to all known treatments.
Infectious disease is going to rise, it HAS risen. Bacteria and viruses adapt far better than we do, and we're always playing catch up. There's going to come a time where we can't catch up, and it's going to be ugly.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 11:03:20 GMT -5
The only one I object to is the common flu, but even with that I think it's a prudent idea to vaccinate yourself against it if it makes you deathly ill.
Well the issue with the flu is it usually isn't the flu that kills you, it is what piggy backs on it. That's why they recommend elderly patients get a pneumoia shot and a flu shot.
Same with babies and pregnant women. It isn't so much the flu it's the complications that come with it.
Sk there is a huge camgain here to make sure all adults get their Dtap boosters. Our pediatrican also lectured us on it.
They show that awful commerical with the sound of a child whooping in the background and explain that the parents are often the ones that put their child most at risk for whooping cough.
So it's very heavily campagined for here. Then I was tested for immunity to a dozen things when I got pregnant. I would have recieved boosters if hadn't been or had never originally recieved the shot.
There was some debate here at work if I had recieved my second MMR because my records weren't complete (you try and get 28 year old medical records in less than a day!) so I had to get another booster before they would consider me eligable to work on campus.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 13, 2012 11:04:28 GMT -5
I'm waiting for Dark to show up and tell us that the weak dying off from disease is all part of the Malthusian order of things. For the elderly, I don't think anybody cares. The basic fear is that vaccines are slowly, incrementally corrupting the human genome. If seniors have already passed on their genes, they can juice themselves up to their heart's content, worry-free.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Nov 13, 2012 11:26:11 GMT -5
"In the Panic Virus the author mentions that perhaps the vaccination program has been TOO good. We've eliminated most of these diseases. Back when your kid faced serious complications or death you didn't sit around and debate about things like autism, you choose to keep yoru kid from potenitally ending up in an iron lung."
Drama I read an article that talked about this. he called it evolutionary amnesia. He said that people are coded to fear what they have seen over what they haven't. the premise being that a person who is worried about being eaten by a sabor toothed tiger and not as worried about being run over by a car is going to be dead real fast! Because of this people's brains prioritize the thing they have seen over the bigger danger they haven't.
Some posters here who have a child or grandchild with autism. They are much more afraid of autism than whooping cough say, because they don't even know anyone probably who remembers it, let alone saw someone die from it. It is hard for people to be afraider of something they have never seen than something they have.
It is a big problem, but in my experience fact and logic rarely work to change an emotional reaction fear. Just my 2 cents.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2012 11:30:03 GMT -5
My grandmother has pretty much said the same thing. She said people my age will never know the relief that she and other parents felt when a vaccination came out for polio. She would have stood in line for days to make sure my father got one.
My mother still remembers the ban on public pools.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 13, 2012 11:34:14 GMT -5
I worked for a lady who was in a wheelchair because she had polio as a kid. I vaccinated my kids according to schedule against everything. I give them the flu shot every year. I get the flu shot every year. I got immunized against things before I got pregnant, because the doctor said it was a good thing to do. I'm going to go with modern medicine.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Nov 13, 2012 11:43:06 GMT -5
"In the Panic Virus the author mentions that perhaps the vaccination program has been TOO good. We've eliminated most of these diseases. Back when your kid faced serious complications or death you didn't sit around and debate about things like autism, you choose to keep yoru kid from potenitally ending up in an iron lung." Drama I read an article that talked about this. he called it evolutionary amnesia. He said that people are coded to fear what they have seen over what they haven't. the premise being that a person who is worried about being eaten by a sabor toothed tiger and not as worried about being run over by a car is going to be dead real fast! Because of this people's brains prioritize the thing they have seen over the bigger danger they haven't. Some posters here who have a child or grandchild with autism. They are much more afraid of autism than whooping cough say, because they don't even know anyone probably who remembers it, let alone saw someone die from it. It is hard for people to be afraider of something they have never seen than something they have. It is a big problem, but in my experience fact and logic rarely work to change an emotional reaction fear. Just my 2 cents. Totally agree with this. When B was 2 weeks old, she caught a cold DH brought home. It was so severe, they thought it was whooping cough. I know what that fear looks like. She gets every single vaccine on time. Then again, she would have gotten every one on time anyway, because I believe in evidence-based medicine. So there's that.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 13, 2012 11:44:05 GMT -5
LOL - I guess you are part of the "sucker club", with me. ;D
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