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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 15:23:31 GMT -5
I wonder if anybody has done any studies on the increased number of ultrasounds, medication given during labor, etc as being a factor?If I had to hazard a guess, I would think yes. When they do a retrospective study, like the one in the OP, they go through OB records and look at EVERYTHING. Retrospective studies are not known for being horribly reliable, unfortunately. Not everything makes it into medical records (like mild fevers and flu like symptoms). Right now, it's so easy to data mine for things like this, that if either ultrasounds or drugs had thrown up flags, those would have been the logical choices. No data suggests that these variables were not significant, therefore not worth reporting. Only positive data is normally reported in reports like this. I think the OP was a longitudinal study - which is much stronger, much more costly design.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 15:24:16 GMT -5
I disagree in that it does matter how it got in. We contact viruses via body fluids. Our body sets up an defense mechanism to protect us when this happens. A vaccine gets around that mechanism and maybe our body doesn't know how to handle it. I don't know, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
Huh?
Please tell me how a vaccine gets around the mechanism. As someone who is trained in microbiology and immunology for 30+, I'd LOVE to hear your theory.
Not only that, could you explain to me exactly why we are no longer dying from diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, measles, chicken pox, meningitis and a whole host of other diseases if vaccines get around the immune system.
Please explain to me how we were able to eliminate smallpox without vaccination.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 16:01:18 GMT -5
Okay, lets start here. A virus enters your body via your nose or eyes or other body fluid... It doesn't come in through your skin. You can't step on it and get a cold. Right or wrong? <really hoping that teaching immunology does not screw up my disability> When a virus comes in through your nose or eyes, it is picked up by the immune cells that are roaming in those areas. You have glands in your eyes, your nose, your mouth and all of them contain immune cells. Those cells 'present' the invader to your systemic immune system, which allows you to mount an immune response. Your saliva, your tears, your gut, your snot.....all contain immunoglobulins that help prevent disease. Cells are also available, and comprise a major portion of many of your salivary glands. You have major lymph glands near your mouth, which acts as conduits to your immune system. Those same immune cells circulate in your body - in your skin and in your blood, which is why a vaccine works the same way. Your skin is considered a primary immune system too, as it is your first line of defense against disease. But if it is permeated (and it does not take much to do so - note my recent infection), so THAT is the reason why you don't get a disease by a virus landing on your knee.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Nov 12, 2012 16:02:18 GMT -5
Every year when kids go back to school, leaves fall off trees, and when the kids leave school for the summer the leaves come back I think school children emit a toxic gas that kills tree leaves. I knew there was something fundamentally wrong with those little noisy, germy buggers!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 12, 2012 16:04:44 GMT -5
;D
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 12, 2012 16:05:04 GMT -5
That explains everything.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 12, 2012 16:08:30 GMT -5
Thanks Mich.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 16:10:20 GMT -5
How can an antibody from the mother "go away"?
It does. Antibody is produced by B cells. Those B cells from the mom do not cross the placenta, but the antibody does. Antibody does not stick around forever, but if you have 'primed' B cells in your system (called memory cells), it allows you to mount an antibody response ASAP when your immune system sees it.
I thought antibodies stayed forever.
They don't.
Also, why aren't babies checked for these antibodies before a vaccine is given?
Why? You want to draw blood from an infant? Would you rather be stuck subcutaneously or have blood drawn from a vein? THEN stick the child again to vaccinate?
What would happen if a vaccine is injected into a baby who was carrying immunity from the mother?
I explained that. The antibodies would process the vaccine and not allow the child's immune system to process the vaccine. Therefore, they would not be capable of mounting an immune response. Your immune system MUST process the antigen (vaccine) before you can develop immunity. The antibody that comes through the placenta is called passive immunity, and is only temporary.
Couldn't there be some conflict, causing the immune system to not react as it should?
Of what? This makes absolutely no sense.
The fact that the immune system of a baby IS more robust only leads me to believe more that we shouldn't be injecting foreign these things into it, especially in such a foreign way.
So how do you expect to protect a baby from disease? Would you prefer that we return to the infant death rates of the 1800s? The bugs are still out there, they've not gone away like smallpox has.
It's this response to the vaccine that has me wondering. And why is autism hitting boys more than girls?
Assuming that males and females are vaccinated at equal rates, this kind of eliminates the idea that autism is vaccine related, doesn't it?
If I had to hazard a guess, also considering that males and females are born at roughly the same proportions, then this is largely a genetic abnormality, particularly since it can run in families.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Nov 12, 2012 16:16:48 GMT -5
Mich, why does my body treat every allergen like something horrible (chronic sinusitis) and yet I don't catch colds or the flu even when DH has a bad one?
To the moms: If this finding (in the original post) were found to be the issue - would it make you feel better or worse? Would you worry more or less (if you wanted to get pregnant again or for the first time) after hearing that?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 16:28:25 GMT -5
Mich, why does my body treat every allergen like something horrible (chronic sinusitis) and yet I don't catch colds or the flu even when DH has a bad one?The response to an allergen and mounting an immune response are 2 different things. Most of my work has pretty much ignored allergies as that's not the scope of our lab. So my responses are pretty sketchy on this. Allergies involve IgE and mast cells release of histamine. I don't know exactly what stimulates it, other than the allergen binds to IgE, causes it to bind to a mast cell and the histamines are released (you do realize that you're making me go waaaay back in my schooling?). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunoglobulin_EFrom this, it sounds like they still don't know what stimulates IgE.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Nov 12, 2012 16:28:40 GMT -5
Also, with the theory that vaccines are the cause, how does that explain why so many more boys are diagnosed with autism than girls? I'm concerned with the new movement of people NOT vaccinating their children because we're losing herd immunity with some illnesses that weren't an issue for a long time. Whooping cough has come back with a vengeance in our area. My pediatrician, who I trust very much, is very into organic diets for children and being mindful of what chemicals and toxins children are exposed to. He's also a proponent of vaccines. I would totally worry more if I got pregnant again. (And I should add: I am NOT planning to get pregnant again.) I never get flu shots, but I did when I was pregnant.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Nov 12, 2012 16:41:21 GMT -5
I've got all these pages of reading to catch up on here! And for the record: no one in DH's family or mine ever had autism (that we know of). And people on both sides of the family tends to live to be very old... The reason I can't get the vaccination link out of my head is I know 2 women personally who had fallen behind on their infant/toddler vaccinations. Both of their doctors insisted on "doubling up" on the amount of vaccine in order to catch up on their vaccinations. Both of those kids who had the double doses ended up having autism. Oh, one more thing. My DS has the professional diagnosis of autism, not the school districts version of a "diagnosis".
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Nov 12, 2012 16:46:34 GMT -5
Mich, why does my body treat every allergen like something horrible (chronic sinusitis) and yet I don't catch colds or the flu even when DH has a bad one?The response to an allergen and mounting an immune response are 2 different things. Most of my work has pretty much ignored allergies as that's not the scope of our lab. So my responses are pretty sketchy on this. Allergies involve IgE and mast cells release of histamine. I don't know exactly what stimulates it, other than the allergen binds to IgE, causes it to bind to a mast cell and the histamines are released (you do realize that you're making me go waaaay back in my schooling?). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunoglobulin_EFrom this, it sounds like they still don't know what stimulates IgE. Thank you, Mich! And sorry for making you go waaaaay back. ;D
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2012 16:47:32 GMT -5
So, your body is set up to expect a virus to enter in such a way and to be recognized as such
Yes your body is set up to recognize any forgein body that enters in any fashion. That's the whole point of having an immune system.
Fat lot of good it'd do you if it only recognized things that entre thru your nose or eyeballs.
Both of their doctors insisted on "doubling up" on the amount of vaccine in order to catch up on their vaccinations. Both of those kids who had the double doses ended up having autism.
This is how correlations are formed. The two may have nothing whatsoever to do with each other but since they happend around the same time we tend to jump to the "most obvious" explaination.
The human brain is programmed to look for the simplest explaination. You didn't have time when we were evolving to debate if that was really a tiger getting ready to eat you or just the wind. You ran and asked questions later.
The fact still remains that controlled scientific studies subject to the peeer review system have shown no links whatsover.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2012 16:49:26 GMT -5
Now, if there is no connection, why would her doctor suggest she do this? Because he wants her business? Because doctors are human and form the same biases that everyone else does? If I look hard enough I can find a doctor that will agree with me on just about anything. Doesn't make that doctor right.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2012 16:51:16 GMT -5
Oh and it is never really too late to vaccinate. So yes her 5 year old is fine, but if he had contracted whooping cough or anything else during that time period he wouldn't have be "fine".
It's your right as a parent to make those decisions, but that doesn't mean it is a smart idea and just because he's fine that everyone should copy her decisions.
My kid is fine and I went with the CDC recommended schedule.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 16:58:51 GMT -5
Yes, this is the way I've always understood it. So, your body is set up to expect a virus to enter in such a way and to be recognized as such? But what would be the body's response when a virus does NOT enter through the required doors?
It doesn't matter. The cells that circulate in your body are the same ones that circulate in your nose/mouth/eyes. The SAME cells.
You have an infection??? From the hip implant??? How are you doing? I haven't kept up on your recovery.
No, my infection was NOT from my hip implant. I had a very minor skin infection that infected my implant......actually, it infected both of them.
I'm doing good now. I have new hips in now and as soon as the doc gives the ok, I can start physical therapy. Infection is all gone.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 12, 2012 17:04:46 GMT -5
nature the infants aren't exposed to others until old enough to handle illness.
Mind = blown.
Your kid is exposed the moment they pass from your sterile uterus into the outside world. You pass on a shit ton of germs as you push the baby out.
Unless your kid is the boy in the bubble it is physically impossible to not expose a child to anything.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 17:09:41 GMT -5
I would rather it be known if my child had an antibody to the disease regardless of the blood draw. For Pete's sake, they think nothing of wacking on the poor baby's penis.
So you draw blood and there is antibody. How do you know if it's the child's antibody or the mother's? And if there is no antibody, then you're still sticking the kid a second time.
Blood draws on infants, especially young ones, are WAAAAY more traumatic than you'd think.
I think much of the problem rests in how we let our infants congregate with others. In nature the infants aren't exposed to others until old enough to handle illness. However, this isn't the case today and indeed disease will be spread. Personally, I would rather risk having my baby be unvaccinated than to expose him to the unknown possibility of autism. Thanks for the response.
So this means you are not going to expose your child to anyone, right? You know that adults are the largest carriers of whooping cough? It's not the kids getting together that cause the disease, it's the Aunt Millie that you invite for Thanksgiving dinner who happens to be harboring Bordatella pertussis, but doesn't know it.
I don't think you're being realistic. And I think that it's sad that you'd rather risk your child dying of whooping cough (which is a very real threat) than autism from something that has never been proven.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 17:22:12 GMT -5
My son had IV's in the hospital and it is no small matter to get blood or put an IV in from an infant. It takes special training and was pretty upsetting for both of us.
My ped explained to me that children and infants are exposed to way more germs and viruses every day simply by living, touching, and breathing than they are by receiving vaccinations.
I understand the fear around autism. Especially if it's a severe case it's frightening and difficult for families. Parents can feel that their bond is completely disrupted if the child can't connect emotionally. But for every anecdote about a child who got autism after they received vaccinations there is another child who did fine.
Autism has recently exploded into the public's conciousness but it has been around forever. My guardian worked with autistic children in the 70's and 80's. A lot of times they were hospitalized or moved into separate classrooms. Parents didn't know to advocate for them and were often told to insitutionalize them. Therapies have advanced radically. Autistic children are more visible now and while it creates fear it's also a good thing because they are getting the help they need.
Millions spent debunking stupid theories about vaccination and autism have hurt autistic children - years of research and millions of dollars wasted that could have gone to therapies we know are helpful and research that is far more promising.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Nov 12, 2012 17:28:44 GMT -5
I've got all these pages of reading to catch up on here! And for the record: no one in DH's family or mine ever had autism (that we know of). And people on both sides of the family tends to live to be very old... The reason I can't get the vaccination link out of my head is I know 2 women personally who had fallen behind on their infant/toddler vaccinations. Both of their doctors insisted on "doubling up" on the amount of vaccine in order to catch up on their vaccinations. Both of those kids who had the double doses ended up having autism. Oh, one more thing. My DS has the professional diagnosis of autism, not the school districts version of a "diagnosis". My youngest daughter decided to go with the vaccines, but expressed to her doctor that she was concerned. He too said he was concerned and told her that he thought it best to wait until her son was 2 years old, give only the most needed vaccines, to space them out over time and to give only one at a time. Now, if there is no connection, why would her doctor suggest she do this? This was 5 years ago and he's fine. 1. Doctor wants the business. 2. Doctor thinks that compramising with the mother and doing a few vaccinations is better than telling the mom that she's a nutbar and risking the kid not being vaccinated for anything. 3. There's a family history of autoimmune diseases so they're being cautious. Many reasons.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 17:29:20 GMT -5
Well aware of this and don't understand why any mother would even let her baby around someone who is sick.THEY ARE NOT SICK! Many adults, including the parents and siblings, harbors bacteria that she has immunity to, but the child does not. They are called carriers, and there's not a damn thing you can do to get rid of them. I can isolate about 700 different species of bacteria from your mouth. Some are totally innocuous, some are opportunistic, and some are downright pathogens.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 17:30:24 GMT -5
Not to mention people are usually most infectious before they show symptoms so avoiding sick people is impossible.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 17:31:11 GMT -5
I can't discuss vaccines anymore today. It's giving me a headache. Thanks for the lessons.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Nov 12, 2012 17:37:22 GMT -5
When an adult gets whooping cough, the symptoms are often just a little nagging cough that could be some harmless sinus drainage. Plus, not all adults have enough sense to keep their germs to themselves. Nobody dared touch my belly when I was pregnant, but I've had strangers walk up to my kids and touch them when they were just born and it was flu season.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 12, 2012 17:44:46 GMT -5
Plus, not all adults have enough sense to keep their germs to themselves.
Last I heard, it's pretty hard for a mother to keep her germs to herself.
When an infant is born, they are essentially sterile. By the time they get their first tooth, they have a lot of the same bacteria that is in the mother's mouth.
You cannot sterilize the world around a child, it is not healthy and likely the cause of allergies, asthma and other autoimmune diseases.
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quince
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Post by quince on Nov 12, 2012 17:49:52 GMT -5
Karma to Mich1 for very lengthy and patient explanations.
I do get a bit irritable with the whole vaccination..."controversy." I'm very reluctantly accepting of parents not vaccinating their kids, but other than real medical reasons not to vaccinate, I wish state-run organizations wouldn't let people get a pass on vaccinating kids that attend (Public schools, state run daycare, etc.)
The extra caution now with re-vaccinating for pertussis as adults that we went through when we started trying for a kid reminded me of the outbreaks because of non-vaccinating parents that caused unnecessary deaths. Urgh.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Nov 12, 2012 17:59:11 GMT -5
It is. But I also think parents who choose not to vaccinate their children have an obligation to inform the parents of other children that they are not vaccinated. I would not allow my children to play with kids who have not been vaccinated.
I don't think you can use that logic when it comes to the human body. Our bodies, germs, illnesses, allergies, etc. are far too complex to assume the simplest answer.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Nov 12, 2012 18:18:25 GMT -5
A blood draw needn't be tramatic. It depends how it's done.
My DD had jaundice as a newborn & needed frequent blood draws. She was the first child at her clinic to be tried out for that little mechanical gizmo that pricks the heel of your foot, & the nurses were impressed how she didn't fuss, compared to their usual method of drawing blood.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 19:09:38 GMT -5
The way the blood is drawn is partially dependent on how much they need to run a given test.
Same as with grown-ups - sometimes a finger prick suffices. Sometimes they need to grab a couple of vials.
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