Flu, fever linked with autism?

[Formerly SK]

Thanks for the clarification on the flu shot - I never get them as I never get the flu so I wasn't up on my science. ;D

I don't honestly know what causes autism. I do believe the rates are increasing (vs just more dx) but I'm sure there is some fudging of the actual numbers. For example, in OR to get services through the schools you need a dx of autism, but the SCHOOL gives you the dx. A doctor's dx is meaningless. I can imagine some well-intentioned school officials give out the dx to help a parent get services (even if the child isn't solidly on the spectrum). But OTOH there are A LOT of kids with obvious issues and no, it was not that way when I was a kid. I don't know if the cause is pollution, our diet, vaxes, older parents, a combination off all of the above, etc. but there is SOMETHING going on.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 12, 2012 10:44:58 GMT -5 busymom said:

Ever had a kid who had a reaction to their shots? Fever, or sick for a day or two? Mine didn't always react well to shots, but the pediatrician didn't feel the reaction was "severe" enough to discontinue or postpone the shots. If I had it to do over again, I would've had more spacing between the shots, or possibly postponed some doses until they were older. I don't believe in skipping vaccines completely, but you must admit the kids get WAY MORE shots than our generation did. I found my own vaccination records when I was cleaning out Mom's house, & compared it to my kids records. Holy carp!!! Huge difference.

Kids also don't die from as many diseases as my generation did.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sk you might want to read Thinking in Pictures by Temple Gradin. She has autism and is very active in the community/research. She talks a lot about current research in her biography. It's really an interesting read.

I also own Animals in Translation by her which is one of my all time favorite books. I'm hoping someday she comes around on a lecture tour so I can hear her in person.

[swamp]

Nov 12, 2012 11:44:14 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Thanks for the clarification on the flu shot - I never get them as I never get the flu so I wasn't up on my science. ;D

I don't honestly know what causes autism. I do believe the rates are increasing (vs just more dx) but I'm sure there is some fudging of the actual numbers. For example, in OR to get services through the schools you need a dx of autism, but the SCHOOL gives you the dx. A doctor's dx is meaningless. I can imagine some well-intentioned school officials give out the dx to help a parent get services (even if the child isn't solidly on the spectrum). But OTOH there are A LOT of kids with obvious issues and no, it was not that way when I was a kid. I don't know if the cause is pollution, our diet, vaxes, older parents, a combination off all of the above, etc. but there is SOMETHING going on.

I believe the poster Miss Tequila had this exact situation. Her child is special needs and is definitely not autistic, but was labeled as such for programming purposes.

You'd have to ask her the specifics, though.

[thyme4change]

Given that nobody had even heard the word Autism until the movie rainman, I suspect that diagnosis is up. I might be convinced that rates are increasing AND diagnosis is up - but I won't believe that every case when identified 50 years ago, and there is really that much more occurance now.

[Deleted]

Nuh-uh! The son from St. Elsewhere was the first time I heard of it.


ETA: Actually, I remember seeing a movie about a kid who spun plates and rocked. That would be the first time I heard about Autism.

ETAA: I looked it up and it was a made for TV movie from 1979 called Son-Rise: A Miracle of Love. I can't believe it's stuck with me for 30 something years.

[swamp]

I'm pretty sure my business partner is high functioning autistic, but that label didn't exist in the 1950's when he was in elementary school.

He was just seen as quirky with social issues and an abnormal fascination with baseball and golf.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 12, 2012 11:07:19 GMT -5 telephus44 said:

On the other hand, it just adds to the guilt load of mothers of autistic children. There was a study reported in the last year that if you took prenatal vitamins in the first 6 weeks that reduced your chance of having a child with autism, but not after 6 weeks.

Hell, with DD I didn't even have a clue I was pregnant at 6 weeks. I peed on a stick shortly after that to figure out what was going on. Hell twice, I was still on bcp until then.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 12, 2012 11:44:14 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Thanks for the clarification on the flu shot - I never get them as I never get the flu so I wasn't up on my science. ;D

I don't honestly know what causes autism. I do believe the rates are increasing (vs just more dx) but I'm sure there is some fudging of the actual numbers. For example, in OR to get services through the schools you need a dx of autism, but the SCHOOL gives you the dx. A doctor's dx is meaningless. I can imagine some well-intentioned school officials give out the dx to help a parent get services (even if the child isn't solidly on the spectrum). But OTOH there are A LOT of kids with obvious issues and no, it was not that way when I was a kid. I don't know if the cause is pollution, our diet, vaxes, older parents, a combination off all of the above, etc. but there is SOMETHING going on.

I have yet to see a study that does not take into account the increased cases due to a more complete definition of autism (granted, I have not looked hard). But thinking back in school, there were ALWAYS a couple kids in my classes who were always getting into trouble. You really cannot diagnose retroactively, especially a condition that is not totally clear cut.

Also, back in the 1970s (when I was in school) if you had a disruptive student that caused problems, they were kicked out.

I think it would be an interesting study because there does need to be some normalization of the autism data to determine if it is truly increasing, or a function as to how it is defined and diagnosed.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

My mom and I were talking a bout it and she remembers that back in school in the 1950's that anyone who had problems was usually clumped under the label "retarded" or maybe Down's Syndrome. Temple Gradin mentions the same thing about her mom trying to get her diagnosed as a child.

I don't really swallow the idea just yet that there are "more" cases as in more kids with autism. There didn't use to be an entire autisum spectrum, you had to be pretty severe to get a diganosis of autism back in the day.

[Virgil Showlion]

This drives me nuts! The public media ALWAYS makes more out of studies than what the scientists say......and I can think of a dozen confounders as to why there may be a a link between the flu virus and autism.

Quite frankly, the stats look much better for the link between older fathers and autism than they do for this.

Absolutely correct on both counts.

[thyme4change]

back in school in the 1950's that anyone who had problems was usually clumped under the label "retarded" or maybe Down's Syndrome

I was in school in the 70's - and we really only had 1 word - "retarded." We may have had "Mongoloid" too, but they were a sub-set of retarded.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

We may have had "Mongoloid" too, but they were a sub-set of retarded.

That's the non-PC version of "Down Syndrome". They called it that due to the almond shape of the eyes many Down syndrome patients have.

My MIL called it that recently and I had to explain to her you shouldn't really be using that term anymore.

She used it in reference to her cousin's baby and I thought maybe I should clue that in before MIL used that term to her cousin's face.

[thyme4change]

Yup - exactly. It is just a illustration on how much things have changed. I'm only 43 and the advances in understanding developmental and learning disabilities is astonishing.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

And it's always changing too. With just a quick vote what was once a disability according to the DSM is now no longer a viable diganosis or vice versa.

[Deleted]

My grandma used to use mongoloid and colored.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 12, 2012 11:47:34 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Yes, the vaccine/autism thoughts are still alive and well.
My thoughts. If they can connect autism with an immune response due to the mother's flu, why can't there be a connection with an immune response due to a vaccine? Wouldn't that be the same?
Another question...with autism rising to epidemic rates, does that mean that more and more pregnant mothers are getting the flu?
Why would that happen if more and more pregnant mothers are getting flu shots?
Shouldn't fewer mothers be getting the flu, thus less autism?
I keep thinking the cause is swelling in the baby's brain, due to an immune response from either the vaccine or now the mother having flu.

Correlation does not equal causation, Lonewolf. The study says there is a correlation (and a very weak one at that).

As I said, I can think of a dozen confounders from this study that were not accounted for, any one of which can explain the results.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 12, 2012 12:02:49 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Yup - exactly. It is just a illustration on how much things have changed. I'm only 43 and the advances in understanding developmental and learning disabilities is astonishing.

That is my point. They are trying to draw results on a moving target. The ONLY way you can determine if the number of cases is increasing is if there is a record review that uses the EXACT same definition of diagnosis from the time that autism was first defined, today.

[Phoenix84]

Nov 12, 2012 9:29:11 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 12, 2012 9:24:19 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I think they're worried that autism rates are skyrocketing and scientists have no idea why.

I don't think the rates are skyrocketing, the labeling is.

I agree with Swamp. i think autism was always around and there, and the levels have remained consistant, but now it's labled. In the "good old days" people were just considered eccentric, werid, or not right in the head, or just dumb. People with ADHD were just scatterbrained or energentic.

Personally I think it's simple genetics. It's just passed on from one generation to the next, or may lie dormant between generations like some things do.

[Deleted]

I think there has been a true increase in incidence above and beyond the increase in diagnoses, but I imagine we'll never really know the magnitude of either.

And because I believe ther has been an increase in incidence, I'd like to see an increase in targeted research to find the cause(s) and an increase in research to improve services for kids with ASD. I'm sick of spending more and more money on debunking vaccine myths because the general public doesn't understand the scientific method.

[Deleted]

My nephew has been diagnosed with Asperger's. After being there for all of his testing my sister believes she probably has high-functioning Aspeger's too. Perhaps he inherited it from her?

[swamp]

I blame it on online dating. It's allowed the older and formerly single quirky people to find a mate.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Also back in the day mental handicaps were a source of embarassment for the family. You didn't go out and seek a diganosis and then go to the school seeking help for your kid. You kept that at home or worse, instutionalized them.

So is it that there is a rise or is it that people are now much more open about seeking diganosis and help?

Temple Gradin talks a lot about how it was an uphill battle to even get diganosed as a child, let alone recieve actual help/assistance.

In those days it was often considered the fault of bad parenting (mainly the mother's fault of course), not an actual physical process. "Refridgerator moms" was the term often used to describe mothers of kids with autism. The thought process was you weren't loving/nurting enough therefore you screwed up your kid, not that there was something phsyiologically wrong with your kid.

[swamp]

IT was also believed that these "cold moms" caused schizophrenia.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'm sick of spending more and more money on debunking vaccine myths because the general public doesn't understand the scientific method

It's not so much that, it is the very entrenched "old boys" network. Peopel are very very reluctant to let go of something that has been so fruitful as far as grant money like vaccinations vs autism.

There needs to be a restructuring at the top on down. The people who give out the money need to stop giving so much of it to these people and start giving it to people exploring other hypothesis.

It happens in all areas of research. One gene in particular has been the golden boy in my former PI's research but over the years it is being shown that it is not the golden boy everyone thought it was.

Yet millions still get poured into research because those that have funding, get funding (kinda like credit) and those that give funding tend to have their favorites.

I remember reading on MSN how the chair of one of the major autism foundations was forced to resign because he called for donation money to start being funneled away from vaccine research and nobody else wanted to do that.

[thyme4change]

improve services for kids with ASD

I think we should improve services for kids in the middle. If we can spend more resources getting the kids in the middle that are around average or a little bit better than average to become really great citizens, I think the resources would be better spent than to help the kids with the most problems deal with them. Maybe asperger's isn't the best example of this - but Down's syndrome...I'm sure they are all lovely people, but let's put our money behind people with a better potential ROI.

[Phoenix84]

Nov 12, 2012 12:14:24 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

My nephew has been diagnosed with Asperger's. After being there for all of his testing my sister believes she probably has high-functioning Aspeger's too. Perhaps he inherited it from her?

Well, I have Asperger's, and I'm high functioning, and my dad does too, though he won't admit it. My uncle and cousin both have some form of mental retardation. So at least my family's case, there's a clear genetic link.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 12, 2012 12:23:53 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Nov 12, 2012 12:14:24 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

My nephew has been diagnosed with Asperger's. After being there for all of his testing my sister believes she probably has high-functioning Aspeger's too. Perhaps he inherited it from her?

Well, I have Asperger's, and I'm high functioning, and my dad does too, though he won't admit it. My uncle and cousin both have some form of mental retardation. So at least my family's case, there's a clear genetic link.

It would be interesting to do a genetic pedigree on you, Phoenix.....usually it takes a couple of families with a clear cut genetic mutation to track down which gene it is. I believe this was how the breast cancer gene was first found.

[formerroomate99]

I remember reading an article on SLATE a few years ago that found a correlation between the available of cable (more children's programming on TV) and an increase in autism rates.

[Deleted]

Poor, maligned TV. Don't worry,I will still watch you!! ;D