Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,495
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2012 11:00:47 GMT -5
"As you know, I firmly believe the US (indeed, all of North America) is inexorably headed for massive, unprecedented doses of all three."
We will just have to deal with that should it arise. I don't believe North Americans will cower like defenseless Afghans or Pakistanis in areas under Taliban control. And yes, I do see similarities between some militias and the Taliban.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 11:29:23 GMT -5
So do I. Human motivations aren't always complicated, and we're all human. ...except for Scottish_Lassie and Sugilite, who are half-human, half-snow-leopard beastwomen. blocked due to malware warnings/smilies/imgs/disdain/disdain002_2.gif[/img]
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Oct 15, 2012 12:47:58 GMT -5
*cough* FLQ *cough* ---------------- What about them? I never gave them a pass. They were horrible, horrible people.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 1:34:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 13:50:03 GMT -5
In the thread on Muslims,posters were telling me it was wrong to judge all Muslims by the acts of a few. I wonder if those same people would think it wrong to judge all militia members by the acts of a few? Posters here are including neo-Nazis as militia members, which isn't necessarily true. Your comparison is not a valid comparison. A vlaid comparison would be all whites being judged for the actions of those in the militia or all members of al-qaeda being judged on the actions of some (most) members of the group they chose to belong to.
|
|
Bluerobin
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:24:30 GMT -5
Posts: 17,345
Location: NEPA
|
Post by Bluerobin on Oct 15, 2012 14:12:24 GMT -5
yeah, they're not bragging about "doing a 187 on an undercover cop"... Ok, so they are smart enough NOT to brag. Just still not smart. To be effective, they should be a tad more stealthy, and have some leaders that actually have teeth and have finished 8th grade.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2012 15:17:52 GMT -5
Black people got black power, the NAACP, rap. Hispanics got Spanish, the immigrant thing, mexican food. White guys got nothing. That's why they join militias. They want to belong to a group. True, or stupid? Stupid. First if we are going to say black people have rap, then you might as well say white people have country. Second, rap is way more of a generational/location thing than a race thing anymore. People tend to cluster with people they have things in common with, which goes a lot deeper than just race (which is different than ethnicity, you seem to confuse the two). So, people that like guns & feel this country is out of control will have stuff in common with militia members & be more likely to join. They don't join just because they are white & therefore fit it, they join because they hold the same ideologies as those in the group (which often happen to be bigoted ideologies). If you hold similar ideologies, then it makes sense to join, but to make it purely about white men wanting their own thing is stupid. It is kind of like saying if you joined a bowling league happened to be mostly/all white you did it to have your own white thing. You probably did it because you liked bowling. And if you are trying to defend bigoted groups like some militias by making it just "wanting their own white thing" that is equally stupid. Although the NAACP was created to help the black people & black communities, they can & do have white members. They are not looking to put down or destroy another race, they are seeking equality. The racist militia groups are not similar at all in that aspect.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 15:25:09 GMT -5
*cough* FLQ *cough* ---------------- What about them? I never gave them a pass. They were horrible, horrible people. Fair enough. I was curious because the FLQ was another example of a contemporary white militia. People have a tendency to dissociate the militias they like from the militias they don't like, but your position is consistent.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2012 16:16:45 GMT -5
Your comparison is not a valid comparison. A vlaid comparison would be all whites being judged for the actions of those in the militia or all members of al-qaeda being judged on the actions of some (most) members of the group they chose to belong to. My comparison makes sense to me. I didn't really expect many here to admit it though. Sorry, it is a very poor comparison.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2012 16:55:45 GMT -5
Sorry, it is a very poor comparison. How so? Followers of Islam and militias are large groups. A small number of each group does terrible things and are not representative of the larger group. I don't understand why it is not a perfect analogy. Well first, there are well over 1 billion muslims in the world, militia probably less than 50,000, they certainly aren't comparable sized groups. Second, for the most part islam is something you are born into, joining a militia is much more of a lifestyle choice. So you have the muslim statement - you shouldn't judge a massive group (over 1 billion) of people many of whom were born into the religion, for the few zealots who become terrorists. To make an apt comparison you need a much larger size group of people with many that aren't necessarily choosing to be a part of that group, but were born into it. The number of militia members is around 50K (maybe) & most of them joined later in life, they weren't born into the group. So the whole analogy kind of falls apart there. So a better comparison would be to not judge all christians or all white people for the actions of a few terrorists (aka militia members). Or conversely, change the initial phrase to not judge all muslim extremist groups by the actions of a few. This is probably the best comparison. You are comparing smaller groups & then the members of those groups that commit violent acts. Although then it loses your point that you think militias shouldn't be judged because most of us judge all muslim extremists. But, then I think you initial point is incorrect. If you are forming a militia, you are doing so with a purpose similar to other militias - why else form a militia at all? Sure maybe you don't plan on being violent, but you certainly are a little crazy & feel the need for a lot of guns & you will be judged for that.
|
|
Nazgul Girl
Junior Associate
Babysitting our new grandbaby 3 days a week !
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 23:25:02 GMT -5
Posts: 5,913
Today's Mood: excellent
|
Post by Nazgul Girl on Oct 15, 2012 17:41:25 GMT -5
Your comparison is not a valid comparison. A vlaid comparison would be all whites being judged for the actions of those in the militia or all members of al-qaeda being judged on the actions of some (most) members of the group they chose to belong to. My comparison makes sense to me. I didn't really expect many here to admit it though. No, I can freely admit right here, right now that your comparison made sense to you. No doubt about it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 1:34:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 18:13:31 GMT -5
Your comparison is not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be all whites being judged for the actions of those in the militia or all members of al-qaeda being judged on the actions of some (most) members of the group they chose to belong to. My comparison makes sense to me. I didn't really expect many here to admit it though. I understand that the comparison made sense to you, that however, does not make it a valid comparison. I already explained why.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 2, 2024 1:34:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 19:13:50 GMT -5
I understand that the comparison made sense to you, that however, does not make it a valid comparison. I already explained why. Actually you did not explain why. You just said it was wrong and another comparison was better. The argument in the Muslim thread was a person shouldn't judge a whole group by the actions of a few members. I make the argument here, a person shouldn't judge a whole group by the actions of a few members. It is the same argument. No, you should not judge a large group, like a race or religion which has other identifying markers by those in the group that are extremists or violent. You can judge a group whose mission statements include violence. I included a more proper comparison, so you could understand, I assumed, wrongly, obviously, that you could extrapolate. My apologies. Angel explained more clearly and I have attempted to add in the explanation on why judging a religion on members who chose violence (when that is not the religion's mission statements) is different from judging a group that whose mission statements includes violence.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,553
|
Post by chiver78 on Oct 15, 2012 19:35:18 GMT -5
steve, you're giving me a headache over these 5 pages. just need to get that out before I make a couple points.
1. Muslims follow the teachings of a specific religion. as best I can tell, militias do not offer religious services as part of their "camaraderie". 2. the Qur'an prescribes violence, yes. the Bible and Torah prescribe a lot of things that are not followed in today's society, too. if you're going to cherry-pick the violence out of the Qur'an, I'd like you to address those items in the Bible and Torah that aren't current anymore. as a recovering Catholic, I can offer up some Bible verses for example, but I can't offer anything concrete from the Torah. you'll have to do your own research, if you don't mind. I don't think you will, since you seem to have already done so with the Qur'an.
ETA: 3. the Holy Book of the religion of Islam is the Qur'an, not the mission statement.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,553
|
Post by chiver78 on Oct 15, 2012 19:46:25 GMT -5
no, I don't want you to quit posting. your comments are just baffling to me, among others.
as I can't figure out what you're thinking, would you mind replying to the points I've made? I really don't know what else to say.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2012 20:31:12 GMT -5
While I'm not sure I agree with your OP, I do (or think I do) understand what you were trying to state with your comparison, Steve.
You don't think it's fair for any group/race/religion/club/sect/whateverwordyouwanttouse to be judged by the misbehavior of a few of their members. I would imagine you chose the example you did because it was something fresh in your mind from another thread.
You are correct, in my opinion. It has nothing to do with numbers, who they worship or don't worship or anything else. It's a simple premise. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 22:05:37 GMT -5
Militias do have some uses.
Patrolling the Arizona border for illegals, for instance.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2012 22:08:37 GMT -5
You are in trouble now.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Oct 15, 2012 23:54:12 GMT -5
Sorry for causing the headache, if you like I can quit posting here. I am pretty much the only one on my side.
I absolutely don't understand why the analogy isn't a good analogy --------------- Well, I suppose I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 16, 2012 9:34:59 GMT -5
Steve, I'm sure you can find a very good way to bond with those who think like you do, other than a militia. If you can't, so be it.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2012 11:37:34 GMT -5
This is the fate for non-believers: 2 Chronicles 15:13 Thanks, I knew there was a better verse.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,495
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 16, 2012 11:40:29 GMT -5
Angel-I didn't post the actual verses because I didn't want this thread moved to the buried Religion board.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,714
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Oct 16, 2012 11:47:43 GMT -5
Pumpkinist wrote: But if push comes to shove they know they are expected to be violent for the group and cause they joined forIf push come to shove, you want to be part of an organization. And depending on the shove you might want that organization to be armed. All righty then. Optimist adds another reason to why to avoid Arkansas.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2012 11:54:47 GMT -5
Angel-I didn't post the actual verses because I didn't want this thread moved to the buried Religion board. Gotcha, I can delete them.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 16, 2012 11:55:44 GMT -5
Are some posts missing? It appears my posts are missing from this thread.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Oct 16, 2012 11:56:43 GMT -5
Yes, apparently I didn't need to go back & delete the verses. Someone made them go poof.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 16, 2012 11:57:27 GMT -5
I see. Probably best. It was a bit off-topic. So sorry.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 16, 2012 11:58:28 GMT -5
GEL, I exported the discussion to the Religious board so that you could continue it there. It's not allowed here, and there is a more appropriate venue anyway.
The thread is called "On the Qur'an and the Bible".
- Virgil (Asst. Mod)
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 16, 2012 11:59:18 GMT -5
My fault, Virgil. As I've said before, I don't ever know what board I'm posting in, but ignorance is no excuse.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 16, 2012 12:01:51 GMT -5
My fault, Virgil. As I've said before, I don't ever know what board I'm posting in, but ignorance is no excuse. It's no big deal. Just continue your discussion over there. The new thread should still be among the "New Topics". Just click on "New Topics" in the menu, find it, and you're off to the races.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 16, 2012 12:02:55 GMT -5
Eh...not into "heavy" today. Maybe tomorrow!!
|
|