Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 14, 2012 12:22:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you want us to say Steve. Most of us are whites and seem to get along fine without joining militias.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2012 14:35:49 GMT -5
How about joining the Elks or a group that does good things for others but also have a lodge and comraderie?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2012 14:49:08 GMT -5
Why on earth would I join a group that was strongly Japanese? I'm NOT strongly Japanese. If I felt isolated I might join a group of people with the same interests as me- knitting and video games? This would align with the suggestion of a bowling league or fishing. Everyone has the potential to feel isolated and not part of a group. The idea that white people are super special in their isolatedness is kind of odd. Just because someone visually identifies me as Japanese does NOT mean that has anything to do with my identity. Similarly, stating that "Hispanics have X, Blacks have Y" is really silly. Maybe you should do that genetic testing that's being talked about in another thread, and you'll know what ethnic group you should identify with. Ever go to a high school cafeteria. The students largely segegrate according to race. It is an inherent human condition. Maybe you are more enlightened and don't self identify ethnically or racially. That doesn't change the fact that large numbers do. But I will readily admit you are a much better person then me, more enlightened, wiser etc. Not in my high school, nor my brother's school separated into race.. We separated into interest groups.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 14, 2012 16:18:50 GMT -5
Oh, for heaven's sake! Join a bowling league, a church, the Republican Party or a swinger's club. However, if you want to belong to a white, armed group which hates blacks, gays and Jews and wants to bring down the government, by all means, join a militia, steve. You don't need our approval.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 14, 2012 16:28:30 GMT -5
Militia Madness American militias started to become more popular approximately five years ago when white supremacist Randy Weaver's family was killed at a shoot-out at his compound. The movement grew considerably after the disastrous raid two years ago at Waco and surprisingly the groups have been Oklahoma as a "recruiting bonanza." Militia members are sworn enemies of the U.S. government. They believe the Constitution is a joke. They believe their rights and freedoms are being taken away and that America is run by Zionists, that eventually concentration camps will be set up in the various National Parks, and that when that happens all militia members will be rounded up by U.N.-trained Chinese police in black helicopters. At that point the "alphabet soups" (the ATF, FBI, CIA, and others) will go door-to-door confiscating their weapons and presumably forcing them into slavery. The hard core militia member wears camouflage, carries no personal identification, drives without a license or even license plates. Many renounce their citizenship out-right. Militia members seem to prefer rural hillbilly-like habitation, to hide from modern-day life. Like many conservatives they despise the media and are disgusted with mainstream cultural values. Self styled survivalists, they enjoy outdoor activities such as hunting and fishing. They are also known to be unbelievably paranoid and exceedingly imaginative--able to create complex conspiracies to explain just about anything. After Oklahoma, many militia blamed the U.S. government for the blast contending that it was a tactic to clamp down on their freedom loving activities. Michigan militia spokespeople went one step further--blaming the Japanese for the attack on the Federal building--saying it was revenge for the Tokyo subway gas attacks for which the CIA was responsible. The Michigan militia promptly fired their leaders for proposing such an outlandish idea, apparently wilting under the media's spotlight and derision. peacemagazine.org/archive/v11n4p18.htmYou want to join, go ahead and join. You don't need our permission. Get a Rahowa (Racial holy war) tattoo while you're at it, for good measure.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Oct 14, 2012 18:23:51 GMT -5
I think that the opinions posted here are pretty much mainstream. I have never really cared one way or another about militias or done any research on them, so my opinion is just what was formed by the media. My subconscious image of them is a group of heavily armed white vigilantes patrolling the Mexican border and spending the rest of their time as isolated, paranoid survivalists.
If I were looking for a group to join to express my white heritage, it wouldn't even cross my mind to join a militia. I would probably join a quilting group or volunteer with the Appalachian Trail preservationists. I might hook up with some of the history re-enactment people in the area that do the wagon trains for the westward settlement. I think if the militias are looking to fill that category, then they really need to do some marketing and change their image to the general public. From the quotes in this thread, it sounds like some of them are big enough to be able to swing a media communications director.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 14, 2012 18:26:23 GMT -5
Personally I don't have an issue if people want to form an all white club or something like that. We have a constitutional right to peaceful assembly. Others may not be so forgiving but they can't really stop anyone from doing it. Maybe there are good militias out there, and maybe it's a classic case of a few bad apples spoiling the barrel. But for militias, they have a shady past, and their own image is on them. If they want a more positive image they'll have to work to create one.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 14, 2012 19:07:56 GMT -5
Personally, I think it's way more complicated than that, and to be honest, I think you're making a lot of broad assumptions about huge swaths of people who don't fall into your basic cliches. Can you elaborate? People want to belong to a group. Most militias are made up of lower middle class white guys. They don't belong to a ethnic or racial group that has a unique culture. Anything they want to claim as their own they get called bigots for claiming it. Wouldn't you have to analyze the statistical makeup of "militias" (whatever you deemed those to be) and compare that with the white population by percentage. If a militia springs up in an area where 95% of the population is white, I would expect the militia would have similar makeup. If militias are family-based, it makes sense that they'll consist largely or entirely of the same race of people. What militias are you talking about specifically?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 14, 2012 20:11:34 GMT -5
Because whites are still the racial majority in the US. Until fairly recently, US television/entertainment/culture was extremely anglocentric. This is why these other groups were formed - so they'd have some solidarity in an almost entirely white culture. In many parts of the country, whites have been a minority for generations. In many occupations whites have been the minority for a long time. Thirty years ago there were few minorities in northwest arkansas. Today probably 90% of construction workers are hispanic. There is certainly a lot of spanish language radio played on job sites. People in many parts of the country have seen their culture slide away. I've been thinking about this post and thought about looking to see if I could get a population breakdown to see if what you say is true or just perception. Its true the construction industry has become more Hispanic and it was largely non Hispanic people who hired them that made it become that way. The only way to really stop the trend is to choose to become a construction company owner yourself and hire mostly non Hispanics. I am sympathetic. People from India have overrun IT in most corporate settings to the point that older people and women have concerns about getting jobs because they aren't Indian. I found a link that shows some demographic information by state and by county for Arkansas. Unfortunately you have to do it one at a time so I don't have the patience to see which county contains the most Hispanics. Overall Arkansas has fewer Hispanics than average compared to the average US state. I did find that Benton County however had a higher percentage of Hispanics, just under 16%, but non Hispanic whites were still a clear majority of the population. quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/05/05007.htmlYes the homogeneous America you grew up with is no longer. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Your culture is not sliding away it is just not on display 24x7 everywhere you look. Its a global world and that's something I think its useful for all of us to adjust to. I like diversity and different foods, music so for the most part I find it interesting. When I go on break at my per Diem job on the weekends I am most likely to sit with the kitchen, maintenance, and/or housekeeping staff. The kitchen staff is mostly Hispanic and black, and housekeeping/maintenance almost entirely Spanish speaking. I'm thinking of learning Spanish to be more effective.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 14, 2012 20:11:52 GMT -5
"What militias are you talking about specifically?" Join the Shriners. You can be part of the Shriners Clown Militia and be in parades and stuff.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 14, 2012 20:26:58 GMT -5
Weren't militias a "good thing" back in pre-independence America?
Let's face it, people who wanted to stick it to the British moved down to or stayed down in the US, and people who didn't mind British rule enough to revolt either moved up to or stayed up in Canada—or back to Britain.
The same revolutionary blood runs through Americans today, to an extent. You're a guns n' flags kind of people. In many ways, the underrepresentation of the US lower classes is beginning to mirror the conditions that precipitated the independence war. People aren't stupid, and they know darn well their leaders are beholden to powerful interests.
Some people take this to the next level and mix it together with other elements. It gives them a sense of purpose and power in a world where the average man is becoming increasingly purposeless and powerless.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 14, 2012 21:03:35 GMT -5
Virgil-maybe these militias, right-wing extremists and other anti-government groups need to put on a better face for the public. Here's one very local example of the Sovereign Citizens movement and the great impression the Kanes left on all of us local citizens. abcnews.go.com/WN/deadly-arkansas-shooting-sovereign-citizens-jerry-kane-joseph/story?id=11065285#.UHtsxKq3PMIFeel free to view the video of one of the officers being killed. His patrol car dash cam caught it for the world to see. There is also video fotage of the police shootout where the father and son are shot dead. A bit too graphic I suppose to post here. Then we have this on-going story (one of many actually): Ga. prosecutor seeks death penalty for 3 soldiersProsecutors in southeast Georgia have charged five more men in connection with an anti-government militia that authorities say was led by Army soldiers from Fort Stewart. Atlantic Judicial Circuit District Attorney Tom Durden said Tuesday the men are accused of committing thefts, burglaries and auto break-ins to fund the militia group. The new charges come after prosecutors last month announced four Fort Stewart soldiers charged with killing two people in December belonged to a militia group they say planned to bomb the Forsyth Park fountain in Savannah, overtake Fort Stewart, assassinate President Barack Obama, poison apple crops in Washington state, and overthrow the U.S. government. Authorities say they spent at least $87,000 on weapons. Durden says he's been told none of the five latest suspects currently serve in the Army, but at least three of them are former soldiers. m.savannahnow.com/latest-news/2012-09-11/5-more-charged-fort-stewart-milita-plot-targeted-obama-savannahThese types of stories are a dime a dozen down here. So if there are negative opinions of militias and right-wing extremists, there is a darn good reason.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 15, 2012 1:53:11 GMT -5
People want to belong to a group. Most militias are made up of lower middle class white guys. They don't belong to a ethnic or racial group that has a unique culture. Anything they want to claim as their own they get called bigots for claiming it --------------- Why would anyone want to belong to a group that has as members, nutjobs who open fire on innocent people in a Sikh temple? Oh wait.....it's folks who feel their white culture is threatened.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 9:17:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying militias should be more popular, or that I approve of their tactics, or even that I approve of their ideals.
But back in pre-revolutionary America, the law (redcoats) were at war with the militiamen (revolutionaries). There was bloodshed, starting with small incidents not unlike the one captured in that video. The difference being that in 18th century America, revolutionary spirit rapidly grew to the point where an estimated 5-10% of the colonial male population had taken up arms against the establishment, while we assume that today no such critical mass can or will occur.
We're looking at this from the perspective of the British. We understand that the US government is corrupt and ineffectual (and becoming more so by the day it would seem) but when a shootout occurs we still root emphatically for the police—the established law and order. The current system is still salvageable, as far as we're concerned.
My point above was more along the philosophical arc that "police good; militias bad" is not an established law, physically or morally. Throughout much of American history, you're rooting for the militias.
I don't know how much of the modern militia is lunacy and how much is principled disestablishmentarianism. If the movement continues to grow in size, the probability that all of it is explainable in terms of the former approaches zero. Hence: how big will it grow? What will be the ultimate result?
*cough* FLQ *cough*
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 9:30:54 GMT -5
what is "white culture"? Because when I think of "white culture", images of J. Crew/Tommy Hilfiger ads, frat parties, and Jersey Shore come to mind. And the militias I've seen/heard of do NOT embody that whatsoever.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 9:38:49 GMT -5
There really isn't such a thing, just as there's no such thing as "black culture" or "Asian culture" if you extend the "culture" to extend to all members of the race.
In the context of this discussion, "white culture" would comprise fierce American patriotism, (I would imagine) some nominal devotion to protestant Christianity, libertarian extremism, mistrust for authority, an appreciation for self-sufficiency, and mullets of varying lengths and varieties.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2012 9:42:55 GMT -5
Virgil-Militias and other right-wing type groups simply don't have a very good reputation with the average citizen in the U.S. They are perceived to be a paranoid group of folks who often make front page news for murders, thefts, plotting to kill political figures, members of the justice system, law enforcement members and others.
In my opinion they are a far bigger threat to the United States than our own government. Our military has been infiltrated by young militia and right-wing extremist members to learn how to conduct warfare and recruit others to their paranoid causes.
And you really cannot compare militias of the middle and late 1700s to today. There are almost 3 million active and reserves military members. In 1790, the U.S. population of states was approximately 3,929,000.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 9:48:40 GMT -5
There really isn't such a thing, just as there's no such thing as "black culture" or "Asian culture" if you extend the "culture" to extend to all members of the race. In the context of this discussion, "white culture" would comprise fierce American patriotism, (I would imagine) some nominal devotion to protestant Christianity, libertarian extremism, mistrust for authority, an appreciation for self-sufficiency, and mullets of varying lengths and varieties. don't forget xenophobia, drinking bad beer, and wearing t-shirts with wolves on them.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 15, 2012 9:49:51 GMT -5
There really isn't such a thing, just as there's no such thing as "black culture" or "Asian culture" if you extend the "culture" to extend to all members of the race. In the context of this discussion, "white culture" would comprise fierce American patriotism, (I would imagine) some nominal devotion to protestant Christianity, libertarian extremism, mistrust for authority, an appreciation for self-sufficiency, and mullets of varying lengths and varieties. don't forget xenophobia, drinking bad beer, and wearing t-shirts with wolves on them. and black velvet pictures of dogs playing poker.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2012 9:54:40 GMT -5
And Elvis.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 10:01:51 GMT -5
This is the public sentiment portrayed by the news media.
It's also no secret that US trust in the news media is plumbing new depths almost monthly, especially in regions where militias are most active.
Polls of public sentiment (by actual polling firms) that are not connected to any specific event or tragedy would still be a reliable gauge.
Conversely, newspaper articles describing "public outrage" or even covering demonstrations of anti-militia outrage should be considered extremely thin evidence. They fall into the same trap as PalmBeachPaul on election fraud: extrapolating a small sample into assumptions about a much larger whole. The truth of the matter is that pro-militia sentiment could be substantial—even in your home state of Tennessee—and you'd have no way of knowing it.
And regardless of whether it's presently popular, if history has taught us anything, it's that the popularity of an idea can change for better or for worse extremely quickly.
Logistically, no.
Ideologically...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2012 10:11:15 GMT -5
Virgil-I have seen what these folks are capable of doing. Did you not view the trooper's vehicle dash cam video I provided in reply #100?
We all saw what folks like Timothy McVeigh can do.
I don't need newspapers to influence my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 10:18:02 GMT -5
White guys got nothing. That's why they join militias. They want to belong to a group. Whadya mean they got nothing…they got Bud, Jack Daniels, chicken wings, cheeseburgers, mac and cheese, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Ford F150 pickups, the Tea Party and Jesus. I’d say their plates are quite full.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 10:23:02 GMT -5
I'm saying that your opinion doesn't prove that the statement "They are perceived to be a paranoid group of folks who..." holds for all Tennesseers (lit.) or even most of them. Nationalist sentiment is a powerful thing.
Some percentage—maybe 0.5%, or 5%, or 15%—of your countrymen are going to watch that video and think: What was that officer (redcoat) doing? Pulling an American citizen over for driving too fast on "the man's" roads? Arresting him for hate crimes because he speaks out as foreigners take over the nation? Locking him up because he refuses to pay taxes to a government that has sold us into corporate slavery? Well then, a man has a right to defend himself. That's what our forefathers did.
Reading news editorials, or talking to your friends, or any of the conventional means you have of collecting information are not going to give you a reliable read on how many people think this way. My point.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2012 10:33:47 GMT -5
"Some percentage—maybe 0.5%, or 5%, or 15%—of your countrymen are going to watch that video and think: What was that officer (redcoat) doing? Pulling an American citizen over for driving too fast on "the man's" roads?"
Okay......and 85%, 95%, or 99.5% rest of the population is going to see this as senseless killings by paranoid miscreants who need to be contained for public safety.
The militias of today are not as welcomed and supported by their fellow citizens as they were by the citizens of 1790.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 10:41:01 GMT -5
White guys got nothing. That's why they join militias. They want to belong to a group. Whadya mean they got nothing…they got Bud, Jack Daniels, chicken wings, cheeseburgers, mac and cheese, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Ford F150 pickups, the Tea Party and Jesus. I’d say their plates are quite full.literally and figuratively.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 10:43:01 GMT -5
...I forgot NASCAR
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Oct 15, 2012 10:50:06 GMT -5
White guys call their gangs Militias, others prefer crips, bloods and ms 13. What's the difference?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 15, 2012 10:51:36 GMT -5
With that I agree. But like I say, don't take this as free license to assume the problem can't or won't grow quickly. The national socialists in pre-war Germany grew from a drunken rabble to a nation-wide movement in just over four years. Nationalist sentiment thrives in hardship, poverty, and chaos. As you know, I firmly believe the US (indeed, all of North America) is inexorably headed for massive, unprecedented doses of all three. "Four-oh be all up onna block, y'all." isn't militia parlance yet?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 10:57:50 GMT -5
yeah, they're not bragging about "doing a 187 on an undercover cop"...
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