djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 12:58:31 GMT -5
any more than squirrels create evolution. Nick Hanauer:
if Obama were 1/10th the class warrior that everyone thinks he is, he would never shut up about this idea.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 6, 2012 12:59:28 GMT -5
Yeah, Joe the ShitMan creates jobs....
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 6, 2012 13:01:02 GMT -5
According to his Highness, The Emperor... if you make over $100,000 per year you are rich....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 13:02:09 GMT -5
Yeah, Joe the ShitMan creates jobs.... if you can't do any better than this, bro- just put me on ignore. please.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 13:03:10 GMT -5
According to his Highness, The Emperor... if you make over $100,000 per year you are rich.... will you please watch the video before you make another inane post? tyia.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 13:46:16 GMT -5
see how popular challenging favored truths is? (crickets)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 6, 2012 13:49:22 GMT -5
LOL, dj! Just consider the source ...
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 6, 2012 14:00:03 GMT -5
Pretty good speech, some merit to the speakers claim.... Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 14:04:37 GMT -5
LOL, dj! Just consider the source ... yeah, i know. i should post under the moniker "Herman Cain".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 14:05:25 GMT -5
Pretty good speech, some merit to the speakers claim.... Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs. it is actually a really important idea. capitalists used to know about it, and talk about it all the time. now they don't want to grow the middle class, they want to tax it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 14:20:52 GMT -5
People who buy goods and services create jobs. I hire people when my goods and services are in demand.... I don't give a frick how much of a break you want to give me on my taxes.... I don't hire people unless my goods and services are in demand.... So i'd much prefer you give people who spend most of their income the tax breaks.... because in the end, THAT is what makes me more money....
What is rich? My definition says having a large quantity of money available.... not this will always be relative, but if you have an AGI of 112K... you are in the top 10% of households in this country... I'm not sure where you want to put the cutoff for 'rich'? .....
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 6, 2012 14:27:11 GMT -5
"People who buy goods and services create jobs. I hire people when my goods and services are in demand.... I don't give a frick how much of a break you want to give me on my taxes.... I don't hire people unless my goods and services are in demand.... So i'd much prefer you give people who spend most of their income the tax breaks.... because in the end, THAT is what makes me more money.... " As the speaker noted in the video, he could not spend enough to create jobs...
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 6, 2012 14:29:04 GMT -5
Henry Ford knew this.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 6, 2012 14:32:06 GMT -5
Yeah, Joe the ShitMan creates jobs.... You are right- he does- and just as important to the economy as you are your highness.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 6, 2012 14:35:11 GMT -5
"Henry Ford knew this."
If only the politicians did....
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 6, 2012 14:42:36 GMT -5
It was either sell 10,000 cars to the people that could afford them and shut down operations or pay people better so demand would rise across the board so he could sell 1,000,000. It is as if the GOP is trying to grind the economy to a halt pampering the rich when they sould be giving more economic power to the people driving it.
Race to the top or to the bottom- we have a clear choice all right.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 14:48:32 GMT -5
"People who buy goods and services create jobs. I hire people when my goods and services are in demand.... I don't give a frick how much of a break you want to give me on my taxes.... I don't hire people unless my goods and services are in demand.... So i'd much prefer you give people who spend most of their income the tax breaks.... because in the end, THAT is what makes me more money.... " As the speaker noted in the video, he could not spend enough to create jobs... i thought that was the most compelling point. he buys a few sets of clothes a year, just like me. how on EARTH is that supposed to grow the economy?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 14:55:40 GMT -5
"Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs."
Which takes more risk and effort: wanting something, or making something that people want?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 14:57:28 GMT -5
People who buy goods and services create jobs. I hire people when my goods and services are in demand.... I don't give a frick how much of a break you want to give me on my taxes.... I don't hire people unless my goods and services are in demand.... So i'd much prefer you give people who spend most of their income the tax breaks.... because in the end, THAT is what makes me more money.... What is rich? My definition says having a large quantity of money available.... not this will always be relative, but if you have an AGI of 112K... you are in the top 10% of households in this country... I'm not sure where you want to put the cutoff for 'rich'? ..... i think that the speaker intentionally leaves that term vague, just like we do when we debate this question in public. everyone has a different standard for rich, and in the context of this discussion, i think that is just fine. but i think it is pretty clear that he means business owners: people in a POSITION to hire.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2012 15:26:48 GMT -5
"Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs." Which takes more risk and effort: wanting something, or making something that people want? "I'll take Non Sequiturs for $200, Alex." No one is saying that business owners shouldn't be compensated for the risk and effort. What they ARE saying is that without people to actually BUY their products, they have no business left to run. And that by building (or allowing to be built) a solid base of consumers they will profit even more. The speaker has it right. I will concede that the rich person may create the first few jobs, but the consumers create all the rest.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 15:40:28 GMT -5
"Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs." Which takes more risk and effort: wanting something, or making something that people want? you can make a whole garage full of stuff that people want, ib. that risk and effort will be completely wasted if nobody can afford it. illustration: if everyone had the same income as the average Chinese worker, who would by the I-Phone 5?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 15:44:32 GMT -5
I will concede that the rich person may create the first few jobs, but the consumers create all the rest. good point. R&D is quite different than production work. and it is SUPER important. if the government really wants to encourage innovation, they can give tax breaks for R&D above and beyond cost.
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Oct 6, 2012 16:01:59 GMT -5
Tax breaks for the rich creates jobs, tax breaks on the poor creates jobs, tax breaks on the middle class creates jobs. Tax increase on the rich reduces jobs, tax increases on the poor reduces jobs, tax increases on the middle class reduces jobs. Reduced jobs creates dependency and dependency creates government power.
It is not a zero sum game, and it is sad that we spend so much time arguing as though one party wants to raise taxes on one group and reduce taxes on another and vice versa. If one party wants to reduce taxes on one group our economy (us) will be the benefactor. If this guy wants to eliminate taxes on anyone making less than $250k, without raising taxes on the rich, I'd vote for him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 16:02:50 GMT -5
Government does a lot of R&D... or sponsors it with grants, etc.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 16:04:40 GMT -5
Government does a lot of R&D... or sponsors it with grants, etc. precisely. and i think this is totally appropriate, by the way. but it is a separate matter.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 6, 2012 16:09:13 GMT -5
"Businesses need someone to buy their products, buying those products leads to the creation of jobs." Which takes more risk and effort: wanting something, or making something that people want? you can make a whole garage full of stuff that people want, ib. that risk and effort will be completely wasted if nobody can afford it. Reminds me of a story I heard about a company that locates a factory on a small island- after a short time all of the native workers had amassed enough for their basic needs and no longer had a reason to work- so the company had a plan- they gave catalogues of their products to the natives and soon after they had employees again. Factories would never be possible if not for demand- the demand of the consumer and power to purchase supersedes the value of investment.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 16:12:23 GMT -5
Tax breaks for the rich creates jobs, tax breaks on the poor creates jobs, tax breaks on the middle class creates jobs. Tax increase on the rich reduces jobs, tax increases on the poor reduces jobs, tax increases on the middle class reduces jobs. nobody is talking about raising rates for the middle and lower class. if we isolate the discussion to the top 2% or so, i can say without hesitation that tax breaks or tax increases for that group has no impact on employment. edit: i think everyone will agree that economic growth and employment are closely related. here is a study on tax rates and economic growth that was recently completed: www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/tax-cuts-dont-lead-to-economic-growth-a-new-65-year-study-finds/262438/there is no basis for the claim that higher taxes stifle economic growth, even though that well known Marxist Obama repeats this canard all the time. this idea is so widely accepted that it is a taboo to discuss it openly- which is probably why my first two responses fell along the same lines of people yelling HERETIC when ancient astronomers suggested that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
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Post by susanb on Oct 6, 2012 17:07:31 GMT -5
Of course, demand from consumers is needed for a business to survive. To discount that would be foolish.
The most successful businesses were founded on innovation. The business owner invented and idea or a process that changed things. To discount the inventiveness, drive and organizational skills required for a business to survive is equally foolish.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Oct 6, 2012 17:25:45 GMT -5
Tax breaks for the rich creates jobs, tax breaks on the poor creates jobs, tax breaks on the middle class creates jobs. Tax increase on the rich reduces jobs, tax increases on the poor reduces jobs, tax increases on the middle class reduces jobs. nobody is talking about raising rates for the middle and lower class. if we isolate the discussion to the top 2% or so, i can say without hesitation that tax breaks or tax increases for that group has no impact on employment.edit: i think everyone will agree that economic growth and employment are closely related. here is a study on tax rates and economic growth that was recently completed: www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/tax-cuts-dont-lead-to-economic-growth-a-new-65-year-study-finds/262438/You can say that without hesitation, but saying something doesn't make it true or accurate. DH and I own an LLC. Since an LLC is a pass through entity and cannot retain earnings, all of our net profits for 2011 were taxed, even though we only put 20% of net profits into our personal accounts. We re-invested 80% of our profits from 2011 and used them to fund our business in 2012. We had to pay individual taxes on that money, all of that money, even the 80% we re-invested. The amount our business made put us in the top 1%, but we didn't collect or keep anywhere near that amount in salaries. We will spend every penny of that money in 2012 buying services and making payroll. Every penny we are taxed is one less penny we have to employ people or purchase. Many small business are LLC's whose owners are deceptively in the top 1% of wage earners. Their businesses are realizing the profits, but the owners pay taxes as individuals because of the pass through nature of an LLC. Unless you have the data on what percentage of the top 2% own LLC's and how many people those LLC's are employing and how much money in services those businesses are consuming, you can't really make accurate statements about the interaction between increasing taxes on that group and employment.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2012 17:26:41 GMT -5
Of course, demand from consumers is needed for a business to survive. To discount that would be foolish. The most successful businesses were founded on innovation. The business owner invented and idea or a process that changed things. To discount the inventiveness, drive and organizational skills required for a business to survive is equally foolish. And again, I don't think anyone is doing that. But to illustrate, just this morning I saw an article about twelve great products that no one bought, or something like that. Better products, with better technology, that failed in the marketplace. They failed for whatever reason (marketing, corporate backing, whatever.) The bottom line is that people didn't buy them and they no longer exist. Even though they were great ideas. That is the point. Without the consumer, the business has nothing, no matter how inventive or driven the owners. Now take that example of a populace that chose not to buy those products, and extrapolate from there to a populace that cannot buy those products. It is exponentially worse. And that is why it is an absolute truism that America does not thrive without a thriving middle class.
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