Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 0:20:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 21:54:11 GMT -5
“I invented nothing new. I simply assembled the discoveries of other men behind whom were centuries of work. Had I worked fifty or ten or even five years before, I would have failed. So it is with every new thing. Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense.” ~ Henry Ford
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 21:55:32 GMT -5
yes. more particularly, THIS part: M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition. Doesn't bear much relation to argument HERE, does it? ;D well, i am attempting to establish a proposition using a series of connected statements, but i will admit that i am drifting a bit off course with the Python sketch.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 21:59:01 GMT -5
“I invented nothing new. I simply assembled the discoveries of other men behind whom were centuries of work. Had I worked fifty or ten or even five years before, I would have failed. So it is with every new thing. Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense.” ~ Henry Ford there is a series on PBS that covers inventions, and it follows this line of logic perfectly. what the rich have is capital to deploy for projects. and they provide an invaluable service to the rest of us who have no such money. but it is good to remember who the real brains are, and who merely has the cash. it is also good to keep in mind how richly those with money are generally rewarded, and how often, the guy with the idea dies penniless. don't misread this. i have nothing but the deepest respect for both sorts. i just happen to think that there are a LOT of people who deserve credit for bringing products to market, including labor. it is great when we all share proportionately for the achievement. and it really sucks when one of us gets shafted. it hurts "the symbiosis".
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2012 22:00:09 GMT -5
“I invented nothing new. I simply assembled the discoveries of other men behind whom were centuries of work. Had I worked fifty or ten or even five years before, I would have failed. So it is with every new thing. Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense.” ~ Henry Ford So is Henry Ford saying, "(He) didn't build that?" How profound! ;D
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 22:01:09 GMT -5
“I invented nothing new. I simply assembled the discoveries of other men behind whom were centuries of work. Had I worked fifty or ten or even five years before, I would have failed. So it is with every new thing. Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense.” ~ Henry Ford So is Henry Ford saying, "(He) didn't build that?" How profound! ;D like i said earlier in the thread, capitalists used to understand this. dude- have you seen Sabrina? this is how i think. it is fun building things, with the help of bankers and workers. money is a biproduct:
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2012 22:05:53 GMT -5
The movie? And which version?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 6, 2012 22:06:18 GMT -5
The movie? And which version? see edit. Bogart.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Oct 6, 2012 22:13:44 GMT -5
Frankly, susanb, I didn't see the attitude you describe in what dj posted, unless I misread what YOU posted. What I read was two people expressing opinions that differed. That's all I read. And here we have two people disagreeing again. Clearly, I see dj and his posts very differently. There seems to be very little room for any perspective outside the dominant opinion in P and M. I lurk here, but rarely post for precisely that reason. Heh. Yes, susanb, we do disagree. There's plenty of room for differing opinions here in P&M. If there were not, there would only be one person posting (or one opinion posted). Posters disagree every day. If there weren't room for them to do so, they wouldn't do so. Is that not so? Now, if "room for" means global agreement with, you're right. However, that's not what we see here daily, so I'll hazard a guess your assessment is a bit off. There's room for disagreement, but global agreement is about as unlikely as a bird with scales.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2012 22:17:35 GMT -5
So is Henry Ford saying, "(He) didn't build that?" How profound! ;D like i said earlier in the thread, capitalists used to understand this. dude- have you seen Sabrina? this is how i think. money is a biproduct: Yeah, except for way too many people, it isn't. I am not naive enough to suggest that greed has not always been with us, but I do believe it has gotten worse (or at least that we now have a system that promotes it.) We now seemingly have a culture of greed in this country. There used to be more concern for people and the common good. Perhaps it was at least partly because tax rates were higher so greed and exploitation weren't as rewarding.... Who knows?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 0:20:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 22:38:20 GMT -5
Every board here has a different flavor... P&M isn't generally where people come to be convinced of something ... We like to argue our perspective viewpoints. Occasionally we give some minor ground... but I wouldn't bet much money on it... Individual innovation, and risk, are important... but they are not the end all be all... in isolation, they don't accomplish anything... and they should be rewarded... but not to the detriment others/the system... and I don't think it helps anyone to suggest that people do things completely independent of that system, or that a strong economy doesn't rely upon a wide distribution of resources and a strong middle class...
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 6, 2012 23:07:53 GMT -5
I watched the video and have read the thread. First, 1 million plus on a home creates tons of jobs. 10 million creates 10x more. Rich people don't create all jobs. But you have to have money to start a business.... Celebrities? Shopping on 5th Ave in NYC and countless other places around the globe? 3 cars at 100k+ You see before the Govt got involved and created a massive debt for us all, the reason that guys like Henry Ford raised wages was because of this.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalismWhy would they keep paying more to support their consumer base when the Govt steps in and starts to offer benefits? Now that the great BIG govt experiment is an utter failure, what is happening.. Oh ya.... givingpledge.org/
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 18, 2024 0:20:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 23:16:33 GMT -5
3 cars at 100K creates more jobs than 15 cars at 20K ?? I'm not sure what you are saying ...
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 6, 2012 23:23:08 GMT -5
If a poor person has three cars(unlikely) they will spend 15-30k per car. If a rich person has three cars they will be 50k plus. More money in the economy. What my overall point is that even the guy in the video states that more jobs=more consumer growth. If you think raising taxes at this point(right now) isn't going to kill job growth; I got four more years of slow growth and big deficits for ya. The only way to move forward is to create jobs.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 7, 2012 0:08:13 GMT -5
What my overall point is that even the guy in the video states that more jobs=more consumer growth. If you think raising taxes at this point(right now) isn't going to kill job growth; I got four more years of slow growth and big deficits for ya. The only way to move forward is to create jobs. But you are trying to make a point backwards of what he is saying. Jobs are not created by rich people, or by tax cuts for rich people. His actual words were, "Jobs are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop between customers and businesses." And earlier it was, "A "Circle-of-Life"-like feedback loop." And in that, jobs are the trailing factor. Jobs are created FROM demand. Jobs do not LEAD demand. New hiring is generally the last resort for business, done only after they have squeezed as much productivity out of existing resources as they could.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 0:29:36 GMT -5
I watched the video and have read the thread. First, 1 million plus on a home creates tons of jobs. 10 million creates 10x more. these are just temp jobs tho. they go away when the home is built. there are simply not enough millionaires to create meaningful employment, and that is precisely his point.You see before the Govt got involved and created a massive debt for us all, the reason that guys like Henry Ford raised wages was because of this.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalismWhy would they keep paying more to support their consumer base when the Govt steps in and starts to offer benefits? Now that the great BIG govt experiment is an utter failure, what is happening.. Oh ya.... givingpledge.org/i am not sure it is headed that way, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 0:32:05 GMT -5
What my overall point is that even the guy in the video states that more jobs=more consumer growth. If you think raising taxes at this point(right now) isn't going to kill job growth; I got four more years of slow growth and big deficits for ya. The only way to move forward is to create jobs. But you are trying to make a point backwards of what he is saying. Jobs are not created by rich people, or by tax cuts for rich people. His actual words were, "Jobs are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop between customers and businesses." And earlier it was, "A "Circle-of-Life"-like feedback loop." And in that, jobs are the trailing factor. Jobs are created FROM demand. Jobs do not LEAD demand. New hiring is generally the last resort for business, done only after they have squeezed as much productivity out of existing resources as they could. that is PRECISELY it. as he says in the video, the LAST thing guys like me want to do is HIRE. we will ONLY do it as a last resort. we are not running charities. we are not philanthropists, despite rhetoric to the contrary. we are in businesses for ourselves and our families, and, if we are really smart (imo) our employees and customers. but we will NEVER hire more than we need to hire, and that is ONLY going to happen due to demand.
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 0:37:52 GMT -5
I'm saying his point is wrong and laughable really. Do the rich create all jobs? No. But in a system of consumers, rich people spending billions on extras goes a long way. I don't think that tax breaks on the rich create jobs, I will give him that. However, Prez Obama had nothing to really come back with the other night when Mitt was talking about the extra taxes on small biz because of health care. In this economy if you start taxing people more, it WILL cut consumer spending, if you tax business more it WILL slow hiring down. This is just basic economics really, you are free to believe what you want in our society though. However, my math says that in this economy.. more taxes=bad news. It's going to take a long time to recover either way, and a policy that could potentially kill jobs almost guarantees a mild recession next year in the USA. It really has to come down to finding a way to keep tax revenues the same while increasing hiring. At this point from the debate it pretty clear who actually has a plan, JMO.
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 0:40:01 GMT -5
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 0:50:16 GMT -5
And yet some of the Ultra rich bad guys are doing this..... Hmmm... givingpledge.org/that's nice, but it has nothing to do with creating middle class employment (the subject of this thread).i consider myself rich, and i am not bad. i know lots of guys that are richer than me and they are not bad. this is not about bad and good. this is about how the mechanisms work in modern nation states to create sustainable futures for ALL their citizens. you are not taking any of this right, ahambuger. this is NOT about demonizing the rich- it is about giving appropriate credit to the contributions of the 99%.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 0:56:49 GMT -5
i think several people have taken this as a bitchslap of the rich. it actually isn't.
the guy in the OP is rich. he is not insulting himself. what he is saying is that he could not have got where he was without consumers, and that consumers are getting eaten alive in this economy. if we don't do something about it, it will not just affect consumers. it is a threat to our entire economic system.
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 0:57:07 GMT -5
That's not what I got from the video and I'm middle class. The only way it's sustainable is if the ultra rich put cash into the bottom, not through the govt. They have done NOTHING man. Look at the debt... Right now if I'm an american citizen and a business owner I'm going to Mr. Buffet, Mr. Gates and all the 100+ others that are part of this giving pledge and saying things like. "We know 10 billion can help revive a nice chunk of Detroit city, ect, ect... Let's start putting this cash to work now big guys/gals. We want to see the projects HERE in THIS country now, when we need it." That's just me though, later.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 0:59:49 GMT -5
That's not what I got from the video and I'm middle class. The only way it's sustainable is if the ultra rich put cash into the bottom, not through the govt. They have done NOTHING man. Look at the debt... not following you here. who are "they"?Right now if I'm an american citizen and a business owner I'm going to Mr. Buffet, Mr. Gates and all the 100+ others that are part of this giving pledge and saying things like. "We know 10 billion can help revive a nice chunk of Detroit city, ect, ect... Let's start putting this cash to work now big guys/gals. We want to see the projects HERE in THIS country now, when we need it." That's just me though, later. still not following you. philanthropy is lovely, but it is not what i am talking about, here.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 7, 2012 1:01:23 GMT -5
... if you tax business more it WILL slow hiring down. This is just basic economics really, you are free to believe what you want in our society though. However, my math says that in this economy.. more taxes=bad news. It's going to take a long time to recover either way, and a policy that could potentially kill jobs almost guarantees a mild recession next year in the USA. It really has to come down to finding a way to keep tax revenues the same while increasing hiring. At this point from the debate it pretty clear who actually has a plan, JMO. Basic economics is that hiring is only done to increase revenue. A change in the tax rate will have little effect on hiring because you will be making more anyway. I wish I were paying millions in taxes, because that would mean I was keeping way more than that. I am on record that general tax increases during recession are not a good idea. But that is not what we are talking about here. And if you believe Romney truly has a plan for everyone you are likely deluded.
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 1:02:57 GMT -5
No, I understand what you're saying. If you think that new taxes won't kill growth, more power too ya, seriously now though, later.. ;D
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 1:03:58 GMT -5
... if you tax business more it WILL slow hiring down. This is just basic economics really, you are free to believe what you want in our society though. However, my math says that in this economy.. more taxes=bad news. It's going to take a long time to recover either way, and a policy that could potentially kill jobs almost guarantees a mild recession next year in the USA. It really has to come down to finding a way to keep tax revenues the same while increasing hiring. At this point from the debate it pretty clear who actually has a plan, JMO. Basic economics is that hiring is only done to increase revenue. A change in the tax rate will have little effect on hiring because you will be making more anyway. I wish I were paying millions in taxes, because that would mean I was keeping way more than that. bingo. when i say that i am "happy" in years that i owe taxes, this is precisely what i mean. i don't love paying them. nobody does. but i am making money when i do. and i DO love that. roughly speaking, the more i pay, the better i am doing.
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 1:04:23 GMT -5
... if you tax business more it WILL slow hiring down. This is just basic economics really, you are free to believe what you want in our society though. However, my math says that in this economy.. more taxes=bad news. It's going to take a long time to recover either way, and a policy that could potentially kill jobs almost guarantees a mild recession next year in the USA. It really has to come down to finding a way to keep tax revenues the same while increasing hiring. At this point from the debate it pretty clear who actually has a plan, JMO. Basic economics is that hiring is only done to increase revenue. A change in the tax rate will have little effect on hiring because you will be making more anyway. I wish I were paying millions in taxes, because that would mean I was keeping way more than that. I am on record that general tax increases during recession are not a good idea. But that is not what we are talking about here. And if you believe Romney truly has a plan for everyone you are likely deluded. Believe what you want. Later.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,193
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 7, 2012 1:09:55 GMT -5
Basic economics is that hiring is only done to increase revenue. A change in the tax rate will have little effect on hiring because you will be making more anyway. I wish I were paying millions in taxes, because that would mean I was keeping way more than that. I am on record that general tax increases during recession are not a good idea. But that is not what we are talking about here. And if you believe Romney truly has a plan for everyone you are likely deluded. Believe what you want. Later. Really?? You're disagreeing with that? You think tax increases during a recession are a GOOD idea? Are you completely denying what you wrote previously or do you just have lousy reading comprehension?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 1:46:14 GMT -5
No, I understand what you're saying. If you think that new taxes won't kill growth, more power too ya, seriously now though, later.. ;D in the (5) years following the three largest tax decreases since WW2, GDP grew by 15.9%. in the (5) years following the three largest tax increases since WW2, GDP grew by......15.9%. you could literally not get a sheet of paper between those statistics. what i think is irrelevant. this is how it is. sometimes conventional wisdom is more conventional than it is wisdom.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2012 1:55:11 GMT -5
I'm saying his point is wrong and laughable really. Do the rich create all jobs? No. well, that is most of his point, so you must not be laughing very hard.But in a system of consumers, rich people spending billions on extras goes a long way. I don't think that tax breaks on the rich create jobs, I will give him that. the rich don't spend billions. even Mitt doesn't. if they did, then this whole thing would be a non-issue.However, my math says that in this economy.. more taxes=bad news. It's going to take a long time to recover either way, and a policy that could potentially kill jobs almost guarantees a mild recession next year in the USA. there is absolutely no evidence that higher taxes kill jobs. so, as you say, you can believe whatever you like. but the data to support this particular belief is simply not there.It really has to come down to finding a way to keep tax revenues the same while increasing hiring. At this point from the debate it pretty clear who actually has a plan, JMO. were you aware that the CBO predicted that the economy will add 12M new jobs over the next (4) years without ANY plan? it is kinda like my plan for tomorrow: i plan to have the sun rise and set. you like it?
|
|
Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
|
Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Oct 7, 2012 1:57:17 GMT -5
I think you might miss the point tallguy. When Prez Obama had nothing to come back with when Mitt brought up the point that small business are going to be taxed extra because of healthcare, that means that taxes are going to go up on small business. When you talk about increased taxes on the rich, taxes go up. This will hurt consumer spending, across the board, as the rich have been keeping consumer spending alive during this downturn. 50% of household have stocks, so we're talking about extra taxes on half the population here, not just the ultra rich. So do you really believe that raising taxes in times like these are a bad idea, or are you just blindly supporting a plan because of politics? The fact that the title of this thread and the premise of the video is that the rich don't create jobs is laughable to me. In fact I have laid out a plan above here to help create jobs using money that the ultra rich want to give away to the middle and lower class. But apparently that isn't the point of the thread. Good-night.
|
|