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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:41:42 GMT -5
Mental illness is difficult for everyone involved. I did follow the case and always felt Rusty was guilty of negligence, if nothing else. You don't put your kids in the path of the train wreck while it is happening. I have a friend who had schizophrenia. She tried to explain to me what it was like. It is not about being depressed. It was like she was in a show where they trick you into believe that all these strange things are real but they truly believe that it is. Did anyone here ever see A Beautiful Mind? it is not about what any of us would do in a situation. It is about a deeply disturbed mind in an almost impossible place. It is almost impossible to forcibly commit someone who has not done something violent yet. This is going on in NJ where they are trying to change the law to allow people to be forcibly commited and it is not easy. I don't have any answers just great sadness. It is hard to wrap your mind around mental illness unless you have dealt with it as a victim or a loved one of the victim. Black Swan- The movie gives a glimpse into what it is like to be on the inside of mental illness. Very disturbing movie.
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:45:13 GMT -5
More info from Wikipedia: She told Dr. Michael Welner that she waited for her husband to leave for work that morning before filling the bathtub because she knew he would have prevented her from harming the children.[12] After the killings, police found the family dog locked up; Russell Yates advised Welner that the dog had normally been allowed to run free, and was free when he had left the house that morning, leading the psychiatrist to conclude that Andrea locked the dog in a cage to prevent the dog from interfering with her killing the children one by one. She had intent and planning. As do people who commit suicide. Does that mean they aren't depressed or suffering from another mental illness?
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:46:35 GMT -5
And, they had also changed her medication in the prior month to Effexor which has possible effects of "homicidal ideation". Always a risk with mood altering drugs, as well as anti psychotics. Another reason for careful observation and monitoring of the patient.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 15:49:14 GMT -5
Maybe she wants to live as revenge for how her hubby and her religion treated her, Who knows?
So Thyme and Snerd if you were drugged and convinced to commit a murder when you got free of the drugs and you were in your right mind you would commit suicide because you feel its the right thing to do?
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:01:13 GMT -5
Mental illness is difficult for everyone involved. I did follow the case and always felt Rusty was guilty of negligence, if nothing else. You don't put your kids in the path of the train wreck while it is happening. I have a friend who had schizophrenia. She tried to explain to me what it was like. It is not about being depressed. It was like she was in a show where they trick you into believe that all these strange things are real but they truly believe that it is. Did anyone here ever see A Beautiful Mind? it is not about what any of us would do in a situation. It is about a deeply disturbed mind in an almost impossible place. It is almost impossible to forcibly commit someone who has not done something violent yet. This is going on in NJ where they are trying to change the law to allow people to be forcibly committed and it is not easy. I don't have any answers just great sadness. Beach, you have any links to this? I think NJ already has it pretty easy to get people off the street, perhaps this is long term commitment once they are in the hospital? I watched Beautiful Mind and I've read quite a few accounts on Schizophrenia including a couple by authors who felt they were cured. I once spoke to a Schizophrenic teen about computers because the parents thought it would help keep him focused as he was into tech stuff. I remember when he suddenly lost focus and it was like me and his parents weren't even there. It wasn't until I saw the move A Beautiful Mind I really understood what had happened. When the mind gets full of certain chemicals all the normal rules no longer apply. I've read things like people who knew things were hallucinations but were powerless to stop having them. Snerd my guess is you like playing devil's advocate and also you have very little understanding what thinking with severe depression is like.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 16:03:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is directed at me. Did I ever indicate that she should want the death penalty?
But, I can imagine a scenario where I did something horrible because I was crazy and decided to kill myself. I wouldn't do it because it was "right" - I would do it because I wouldn't be strong enough to carry that burden around with me the rest of my life.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 16:04:34 GMT -5
The point is you don't leave a severely depressed person alone. There are lots of depressed people. The world just doesn't suddenly stop. If there is indication that treatment was given and things seemed to be improving, then I doubt there are too many people at home 24/7, especially with 5 kids when one needs to work and provide. And, he did try to provide by having his mother, etc come over. It wasn't perfect but an indication he did consider this. SEVERELY DEPRESSED is not the same as depressed! Now you're just not even bothering to read.
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 16:07:06 GMT -5
I had a neighbor - lovely woman. She was a stained glass artist. She tried to kill herself a couple of times. The last time, medical intervention stopped her immediate death, but she succumbed, two days later, to the damage she had done to her liver and kidneys. Talking to her, you would not have known she battled such demons.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:10:55 GMT -5
Snerd, if you're just trying to play Devil's Advocate, you need to at least come up with some decent reasoning behind your arguments. Mentally ill people rarely "choose" to do anything - only people of sound mind have choices. I believe mentally ill people do choose to do things its just their reasoning is affected by what they are experiencing. Think of it this way, a well-fed person and a starving person are going to make different food choices if spoiled or just sweet food is put before them. If the starving person thinks they might die of starvation if they don't eat the spoiled food, they may chance it. The well fed person knows they can afford to avoid it. Unless MoneyJenny you meant the quality of a mentally ill person's choices are different just like children are believed to have less understanding of certain consequences unless they are adults. There are reasons mentally affected people act and choose what they do. Its not just random. Its an intersection of their beliefs, their understanding of the world, interactions with chemicals out of whack, interactions with medications which can go from beneficial to hurtful very quickly.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:16:00 GMT -5
Thyme I included you with Snerd because Snerd wrote:
"If I were her, I would beg and plead for the death penalty. "
And your post following that one was:
"She is insane - so who knows why she doesn't want that. "
Maybe I misread yours, not good with double negatives but it seemed to me you agreed with Snerd she shouldn't want to get released and live, she should beg to be killed.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:20:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is directed at me. Did I ever indicate that she should want the death penalty? But, I can imagine a scenario where I did something horrible because I was crazy and decided to kill myself. I wouldn't do it because it was "right" - I would do it because I wouldn't be strong enough to carry that burden around with me the rest of my life. Thyme, thanks for clarifying. I think that's what few people understand. A woman with severe postpartum depression will likely feel like harming her kids and/or killing herself. They feel they are not strong enough to carry the burden of living, of enduring the children that caused their situation. Its the nature of the beast when its really, really bad.
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 2, 2011 16:21:53 GMT -5
TRENTON – A bill sponsored by Senate President Richard J. Codey (D-Essex) that would create an Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) program in the State of New Jersey was approved by the full Senate today by a vote of 37 to 0. “This bill will create an entirely new mechanism to get much-needed help to the portion of our population that often gets overlooked,” said Codey. “Our goal is to minimize time in the hospital and keep patients in the least restrictive environment that will help foster their recovery.” Bill S735 would amend the state’s civil commitment law to allow involuntary commitment to treatment in an outpatient setting as an alternative to current law which allows for involuntary inpatient commitment for people who are established to be dangerous in the reasonably foreseeable future to themselves, others, or property. Sen. Codey noted that two recent homicides have renewed the urgency for this bill. One incident occurred in August of 2008, when a schizophrenic man from Galloway Township who had refused treatment, attacked and killed his mother and one of his 12 year-old twin nieces and seriously injured his other twin niece. A separate incident occurred in September of 2008 when a schizophrenic man from Jersey City, whose parents had been fighting for years to get him treatment, fatally stabbed a commuter at the light rail train station in Jersey City. “Without the option of outpatient commitment, those that go untreated are likely to pose a serious danger to themselves or others,” added Sen. Codey. “At the very least, they will be utilizing other state resources such as the hospital or jail, which end up costing taxpayers far more money. With our mental health infrastructure ranking fourth in the nation, it makes far more sense to try and get patients the treatment they need in an outpatient setting.” Studies have shown that IOC has been highly successful in helping patients comply with their medication needs, reducing their hospital stays and helping patients along on the path to recovery and productivity. Sen. Codey’s bill is modeled after Kendra’s Law which was passed in New York in 1999. A study published by the State of New York five years after Kendra’s Law was implemented showed that among individuals in the program:- 74 percent fewer experienced homelessness;- 77 percent fewer experienced psychiatric hospitalization;- 83 percent fewer experienced arrest; and- 87 percent fewer experienced incarceration The legislation would provide for involuntary outpatient treatment, sometimes known as Assisted Outpatient Treatment, for people who refuse mental health treatment despite their need for it, as long as they would not pose a threat to themselves or others in an outpatient setting. Currently, 42 other states have laws for assisted outpatient treatment. The bill would use the following uniform standard for determining the need for involuntary commitment:a) an adult with mental illness; b) whose mental illness causes the person to be dangerous to self or to others or property; c) who is unwilling to accept appropriate treatment voluntarily after it has been offered; andd) needs outpatient treatment or inpatient care at a short-term care or psychiatric facility or special psychiatric hospital because other services are not appropriate or available.
This is the best description I could find quickly. It does contain the bill number and such.
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 16:26:47 GMT -5
I think my point was that she isn't a rational thinker. I don't believe people kill their 5 children in a rational manner. I believe she is so unscrewed that she will never really have rational thought. So, snerd saying that begging for the death penalty makes sense sparked my response of "How could we ever understand what makes sense to this lady?"
However, if she thinks she is just going to "get better" and walk around the earth - she is sadly mistaken. Even if they do treat her, there is a very, very good chance she will never leave a state facility. I don't think we have any current methods that could guarantee a proven violent homocidal person could overcome this type of insanity and function in society. I'm also not totally sure on what our laws are capable of, either theoretical or in reality. Maybe we can release her on the condition that she stays in a medical professional's care, and continues to take medications - but in reality, are we going to hunt her down and test her every 3 months? Cheaper and safer to just keep her locked up.
I said earlier on this thread that I read an article about how people getting the insanity plea are usually locked up for longer than their sentence, and very often they are never released. Andrea Yates will hopefully never walk free. If she wants to live or die - that is up to her. As I said, I would want to die - but not because it is some sort of justice, but more because it would make my pain go away.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:36:17 GMT -5
Thanks Beach, I'll have to look into it. I wonder if they feel there will be more compliance because the patients will be forced to spend less money on outpatient services as compared to being obligated to spend funds at in hospital rates.
I personally think its a travesty that people due to their situation or genetics get forced into paying significant medical bills because the state wants them to, but if you commit a crime its all free. I wonder what the incidence is for bankruptcy among those diagnosed mentally ill?
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:43:48 GMT -5
"I believe she is so unscrewed that she will never really have rational thought."
Here we disagree. I am a survivor of clinical depression and its been over twenty years since I had the one and only occurrence. I know that if those depression chemicals get out of her system and she learns how to re-frame how she thinks she could be a contributing member of society and fine for the rest of her life.
Since she had postpartum depression if she undertook voluntary sterilization and never had kids again I believe the risk of her hurting children hers or otherwise is almost zero. Hurting herself, slightly riskier than the general population, however its her not others so I think an acceptable risk all and all.
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 2, 2011 16:51:21 GMT -5
Opt4Life, I know that the law passed but was challanged in court and I think it is still there. As I remember it the problem is it is one thing to commit someone to a hospital because they are violent. But to force medical treatment on someone who isn't so they don't become violent is a slippery slope. The people knew the family member could become violent and tried like mad to get them help but, they couldn't force him and the authorities wouldn't without proof. And these people it was their family member. They wanted them well with all there heart. The other thing that gets lost in this is that the vast majority of severely mentally ill people never hurt anyone. A few hurt themselves but only very rarely hurt anyone else. One person said once in my area that if we could take the mentally ill out of the criminal Justice system and treat them we almost wouldn't need one. He said that the vast majority of people in jails are mentally ill. They "self medicate" to try and make themselves feel better. But then when they are caught we punish them and put them in jail which makes them go downhill even faster. I know every act has consequences but it would be nice if we would pay for preventative treatment before something happens instead of paying for jails and prosecutors after.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 16:55:22 GMT -5
I think part of this tragedy is stigmatizing families of mentally ill. In assuming that the families of the mentally ill can detect, treat, prevent and predict any and all behavior and then casting blame on the devastated family members who often didn't know what to do, the best way to deal with things or understand a warning signs or a worsening situation. I fail to see this type of stigmatization helps anybody. I don't see that I've done that. He was warned to keep her supervised round the clock how can it get any clearer than that? Per what was written in the press, he got decent advice and ignored that. Do I think he should have absolutely positively been able to predict she would kill her kids in a one hour window of opportunity? No. Do I think he should have acted as if it were a real possibility. Absolutely! If you aren't willing to pay the price of being wrong, don't risk it. Knowing it was possible isn't rocket science. As a different example, it turns out significantly retarded people sometimes do some scary self harm things which is why they are closely supervised when in a state situation. A frustrated retarded person chopping vegetables may suddenly decide to slit their wrists after a staff member refuses a simple request like "May I watch TV after dinner?" Does it always happen? No. But once you know these things are possible, you manage the situation appropriately like have medical kits close by in case and calling 911 ASAP.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 17:00:20 GMT -5
"I know every act has consequences but it would be nice if we would pay for preventative treatment before something happens instead of paying for jails and prosecutors after. "
Ooooooh, I like that. I'd even help run the program.
Beach my greatest worry about all these laws is they tend to penalize the majority for the sake of the minority.
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 17:02:33 GMT -5
I don't think she had a run-of-the mill or even severe depression. She was on anti-hallucinogenics. Wasn't she also diagnosed with schizophrenia? Her illness went much further than most. I'm not saying that if you have any form of mental illness you are doomed to be a crack-pot forever. However, Andrea Yate's illness was quite deep. Even if she could have been pulled back from the brink into some kind of normal, the amount of healing she would need to do from overcoming the fact that she drown her own 5 children only adds to the fact that this particular person will probably never be normal and healthy.
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 17:06:57 GMT -5
The problem was already detected and it was being treated - apparantly without much success. But whatever - we aren't asking good ol Russ to do that.
Predicting that Andrea was going to do something slightly crazy wasn't something that you would need to call the pshyic hotline for - she had made multiple attempts at suicide and the doctor recommended she shouldn't be alone. Prevention was in this man's reach. He chose to ignore common sense and doctor's orders.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 17:07:05 GMT -5
"But to force medical treatment on someone who isn't so they don't become violent is a slippery slope. The people knew the family member could become violent and tried like mad to get them help but, they couldn't force him and the authorities wouldn't without proof."
Its also a slippery slope because of medications and how they interact differently in different people. Someone can legally be forced to take medications that cause them to be suicidal and/or homicidal.
I need to stop thinking about this issue as I wish I could teach people how to think so this wouldn't happen and develop safer drugs and protocols for those change your thinking change you life isn't quite enough.
Back to cover letters.
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 17:20:05 GMT -5
"But to force medical treatment on someone who isn't so they don't become violent is a slippery slope. The people knew the family member could become violent and tried like mad to get them help but, they couldn't force him and the authorities wouldn't without proof." Its also a slippery slope because of medications and how they interact differently in different people. Someone can legally be forced to take medications that cause them to be suicidal and/or homicidal. I need to stop thinking about this issue as I wish I could teach people how to think so this wouldn't happen and develop safer drugs and protocols for those change your thinking change you life isn't quite enough. Back to cover letters. During my divorce, I was on anti anxiety meds. I didn't realize it, neither did my doctor, but my daughter put two and two to together and recognized that the drug made me psychotic. Looking back, on how I felt and what I thought, she was correct. While taking the medication, I thought I was "normal." I had no idea my behavior or thoughts were so out of whack, until I went off the drug. My view of reality was very distorted while taking the medication. In many cases, it is the reverse. Until they are on medication, some fail to realize how out of it they are.
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 2, 2011 17:32:03 GMT -5
She wasn't schizophrenic at all. She had Postpartum Psychosis. Although it looks the same to us on the outside they are completely different. It is more of a situational disorder than a regular mental illness. After the postpartum hormones and chemicals go back to normal she should return to normal. I believe that breast feeding keeps it going also. And of course having another baby normally makes it come bank and normally worse, unfortunately.
She probably doesn't even remember any of what happened either. A normal person this would drive them nuts for the rest of their life. But for someone with this type of disorder she probably only knows what others have said not actual true memories.
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 17:38:31 GMT -5
So, you believe she should skip off into the sunset because she doesn't really remember - and she will have no further mental health problems, and can just "get over" her own actions because she wasn't really there, but only heard the story?
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 18:04:40 GMT -5
So, you believe she should skip off into the sunset because she doesn't really remember - and she will have no further mental health problems, and can just "get over" her own actions because she wasn't really there, but only heard the story? It is possible to get over and survive almost anything. She's been paying for her crimes and was living in her own personal hell before that. Are you willing to foot the bill to keep her in jail? Do you really think its a wise use of taxpayer resources when the odds of recurrence if she doesn't get pregnant is virtually nil?
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 18:06:01 GMT -5
I honestly don't care what the circumstances were. She killed her children in cold blood. She killed her son in the car on the way to soccer practice. She shot her daughter in the head while she was on the computer. There was NO confrontation... and there was absolutely pre-meditation in her actions. I don't care if voices in her head told her to do it.. she did it. Period. It's despicable and I don't think anyone who has gotten to this point will ever be "normal" and should NOT be allowed back in society. MM, this situation is different. We got off onto the tangent of Andrea Yates.
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 18:21:56 GMT -5
I was under the impression that postpartum pshycosis is heavily tied to prior emotional disorders, like bi-polar and depression. If not in the person, in the family history. I don't really know enough about it - but her actions were so aggregious, I guess I don't think I would ever feel safe with her wandering around the world. I would rather foot the bill for her to stay in an institution or jail, because it is likely she is just going to get out and go on the public dole anyway.
Besides, our jail system is not about public safety, it is about punishment.
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 18:48:19 GMT -5
"I don't really know enough about it - but her actions were so aggregious, I guess I don't think I would ever feel safe with her wandering around the world."
Exactly you are having a knee jerk reaction instead of a logical reasoned reaction. I personally wouldn't pay the extra money to keep her in jail if it were up to me.
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 19:45:30 GMT -5
So, you believe she should skip off into the sunset because she doesn't really remember - and she will have no further mental health problems, and can just "get over" her own actions because she wasn't really there, but only heard the story? It is possible to get over and survive almost anything. She's been paying for her crimes and was living in her own personal hell before that. Are you willing to foot the bill to keep her in jail? Do you really think its a wise use of taxpayer resources when the odds of recurrence if she doesn't get pregnant is virtually nil? No, I don't think housing her for the rest of her life is the best use of taxpayer funds...yet another reason to let her husband drown her sorry ass
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 19:45:59 GMT -5
"I don't really know enough about it - but her actions were so aggregious, I guess I don't think I would ever feel safe with her wandering around the world." Exactly you are having a knee jerk reaction instead of a logical reasoned reaction. I personally wouldn't pay the extra money to keep her in jail if it were up to me. So we agree...so, should we shoot her or drown her
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