Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:06:54 GMT -5
This is from Wike so who knows how accurate it is...but I don't have time (or inclination) to research further: In July 1999, Yates succumbed to a nervous breakdown, which culminated in two suicide attempts and two psychiatric hospitalizations that summer. She was diagnosed with postpartum depression and psychosis. She was successfully treated and discharged in January 2000. Her first psychiatrist, Dr. Eileen Starbranch, testified that she urged the couple not to have more children, as it would "guarantee future psychotic depression". The Yateses conceived their fifth child one month after her discharge. Yates' mental illness resurfaced in March 2001, three months after the birth of her fifth child. Her illness was further exacerbated by the death of her father in mid-March 2001. Two weeks later, she became so incapacitated that she required immediate hospitalization. On April 1, 2001 she came under the care of Dr. Mohammed Saeed. She was treated and released. On May 3, 2001, she degenerated back into a "near catatonic" state and suspiciously drew a bath in the middle of the day for no apparent reason. Andrea was hospitalized the the next day after a scheduled doctor visit. Her psychiatrist determined she was probably suicidal and had drawn the tub to drown herself. Andrea Based on the above, someone should have intervened and taken those babies away. I still think she should be drowned, but now i think the doctor and possibly the husband should drown along with her.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:07:26 GMT -5
I've actually thought this before. Thinking that your wife will chase down your 7 and 5 year old children, drag them into the bathtub and hold them under water until they die is pretty off the wall. I understand shaken baby syndrome, or even some of the other crazy stuff that happens to toddlers, but I couldn't understand the blantent violence of killing the older ones. But, thinking that is it possible that your wife would harm herself or neglect the children to the point of danger isn't a big leap. It doesn't take much thought, expense, effort or even craziness to think it would be okay to take "just a couple" of over the counter sleeping pills while the kids are watching tv. I could probably come up with 10 or 15 other scenarios that would be unhealthy and very likely if she was really having a hard time.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:07:57 GMT -5
She should not have been left alone with the children, even for an hour. Agreed. Sounds like she was totally f'd up and no one intervened like they should have. I geuss it was so long ago that I forgot the details of her case (I was 8 months pregnant when it happened and just couldn't handle reading much about it at the time
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:12:10 GMT -5
Mental illness is difficult for everyone involved. I did follow the case and always felt Rusty was guilty of negligence, if nothing else. You don't put your kids in the path of the train wreck while it is happening.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:12:29 GMT -5
are you really that naive? How often do people igore the doctor's orders? A lot! This is no different. And don't even get me started on how many people slip through the cracks in the mental health system.
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:14:00 GMT -5
If the physicians, who are trained to deal with this, did not commit her, remove her from her home or children, or put CPS, etc on alert, then did they do their job? Her husband is a lay person. If the doctors told them she was getting appropriate treatment what else was he supposed to do? And, he had to work to support his family so I am sure he would have been resoundly criticized if he would have quit work. Also, being a suicidal danger to yourself does not mean you are going to become homicidal. I don't think we need to blame the father who apparently loved his wife and children. How do we know he loved her? Wanting more kids when she had a history or post partum? Moving her around the country - crowded into trailers and motor homes?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:14:20 GMT -5
Mental illness is difficult for everyone involved. I did follow the case and always felt Rusty was guilty of negligence, if nothing else. You don't put your kids in the path of the train wreck while it is happening. exactly. Putting your kids in the care of someone who is that unhinged is tantamount to reckless endangerment, which is punishable by law.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:14:30 GMT -5
If the physicians, who are trained to deal with this, did not commit her, remove her from her home or children, or put CPS, etc on alert, then did they do their job? Her husband is a lay person. If the doctors told them she was getting appropriate treatment what else was he supposed to do? And, he had to work to support his family so I am sure he would have been resoundly criticized if he would have quit work. Also, being a suicidal danger to yourself does not mean you are going to become homicidal. I don't think we need to blame the father who apparently loved his wife and children. Now I have to disagree (even though I was agreeing earlier)...if a psychiatrist told me that my husband was unstable and needed around the clock supervision, I sure as shit wouldn't leave him alone with my children, some of whom were just babies....even if I would never think he would kill the children. If he killed himself while he was alone with the children, there would be significant risk to the children since they were so young.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:15:57 GMT -5
Okay - I wrote that and then got sidetracked, and you guys posted all that detail, and then I hit post - so I sounds a little out of touch.
Sorry - sue me for "assuming" that her husband should have done more than leave her alone with the kids. He was given instructions to supervise her around the clock. He did not. They were given instructions to not have kids. They did. (This is where I have problems with some religious ideologies.) This wasn't a situation where she was "seemingly normal" and then snapped. He could have reasonably assumed something bad was going to happen. She had multiple suicide attempts under her belt. He should have at least assumed she was going to kill herself with her 7 year old standing there watching, or being left to find her body. That alone is enough to want to rally for your kids.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 2, 2011 15:16:28 GMT -5
If the physicians, who are trained to deal with this, did not commit her, remove her from her home or children, or put CPS, etc on alert, then did they do their job? Her husband is a lay person. If the doctors told them she was getting appropriate treatment what else was he supposed to do? And, he had to work to support his family so I am sure he would have been resoundly criticized if he would have quit work. Also, being a suicidal danger to yourself does not mean you are going to become homicidal. I don't think we need to blame the father who apparently loved his wife and children. How do we know he loved her? Wanting more kids when she had a history or post partum? Moving her around the country - crowded into trailers and motor homes? I don't have a link for this, but I think I remember reading that he also insisted the children be homeschooled.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 15:17:03 GMT -5
My guess is the doctor gave those round the clock instructions based on the fact the husband was unwilling to comply with more intervention than that. Look at the evidence of the pregnancy after the first doctor's warning, etc. IMO, the husband wanted what he wanted more than he cared about his wife or his existing children.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:18:22 GMT -5
So, you think a great thing to do to your kids is to let them watch their mother kill herself while there is no other adult present to help you take care of your infant siblings?
I blame him - he knew something was going to go wrong. Sure, he didn't think she would kill the kids. But, whatever she was going to do was going to mess them up something awful.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:19:08 GMT -5
Okay - I wrote that and then got sidetracked, and you guys posted all that detail, and then I hit post - so I sounds a little out of touch. Sorry - sue me for "assuming" that her husband should have done more than leave her alone with the kids. He was given instructions to supervise her around the clock. He did not. They were given instructions to not have kids. They did. (This is where I have problems with some religious ideologies.) This wasn't a situation where she was "seemingly normal" and then snapped. He could have reasonably assumed something bad was going to happen. She had multiple suicide attempts under her belt. He should have at least assumed she was going to kill herself with her 7 year old standing there watching, or being left to find her body. That alone is enough to want to rally for your kids. I agree. I would never believe my spouse capable of killing our children, but if he had already attempted suicide and the psychiatrist believed him to be capable of another attempt, I wouldn't leave him alone, let alone with my children.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:20:27 GMT -5
So what? Lots of people moved around. She and she alone held those kids under water to the point of their deaths. She and she alone held her older kids under as they scratched and clawed trying to gasp for air. She could have called 911 when she had those feelings. She could have called mental health services or a hotline. She could have called 911 after the first child or fled the house. She could have done many other things, but she CHOOSE not too. Her spouse was not the one holding them underwater. And I normally agree with statements like that...however, in this case he was warned that she was unstable and not to leave her alone. He might not be guilty of murder, but he sure as hell is guilty of neglect.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:20:41 GMT -5
I think the thing that was a huge factor in all this was the Yates's socioeconomic status. In terms of regular healthcare, even poor people can get the care they need. It may be more difficult, but it's possible. Psychiatric care for the poor is subpar to say the least. The Yates's were poor, otherwise they would be able to afford either a live-in healthcare worker for Andrea or to have a full-time nanny while Andrea was admitted full-time to a psych ward.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 2, 2011 15:21:07 GMT -5
So what? Lots of people moved around. She and she alone held those kids under water to the point of their deaths. She and she alone held her older kids under as they scratched and clawed trying to gasp for air. She could have called 911 when she had those feelings. She could have called mental health services or a hotline. She could have called 911 after the first child or fled the house. She could have done many other things, but she CHOOSE not too. Her spouse was not the one holding them underwater. If you've had some experience with suffering from clinical depression, you might change you tune............. It's a tragedy all around, dad had his head up his ass and didn't protect his kids. Mom was to ill to protect them and as a result we've got 5 dead kids and mom in prison for the rest of her life. It's where she belongs, but it didnt' have to turn out like that. I actually was involved in prosecuting a mom who killed her baby. It was awful and I'll spare you the details. She was "not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" which means she spends the rest of her life in a secure mental facility. I'd rather be in jail, thanks. And in this case, the family and the mental health system failed mom.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 2, 2011 15:21:28 GMT -5
based on the fact the husband was unwilling to comply with more intervention than that Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fun&action=display&thread=2677&page=3#ixzz1CpoVJzK2OK, because you don't particularly care for him and who does anyway, you want to spin that? Why? As for having another child, that is a 2 way street, she may have literally begged him to have another child as well. YOu don't know so why don't we stick to the facts. And, how about blaming the crime on the person that actually committed the crime? So what if she begged him to have more? The doctor told them not to have anymore because of her depression....again, I don't care what my husband did or said, I would not put him or my children at risk by having more.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 2, 2011 15:22:25 GMT -5
I think the thing that was a huge factor in all this was the Yates's socioeconomic status. In terms of regular healthcare, even poor people can get the care they need. It may be more difficult, but it's possible. Psychiatric care for the poor is subpar to say the least. The Yates's were poor, otherwise they would be able to afford either a live-in healthcare worker for Andrea or to have a full-time nanny while Andrea was admitted full-time to a psych ward. I thought he was an engineer with NASA. Not poor.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 2, 2011 15:21:47 GMT -5
Mental illness is difficult for everyone involved. I did follow the case and always felt Rusty was guilty of negligence, if nothing else. You don't put your kids in the path of the train wreck while it is happening. I have a friend who had schizophrenia. She tried to explain to me what it was like. It is not about being depressed. It was like she was in a show where they trick you into believe that all these strange things are real but they truly believe that it is. Did anyone here ever see A Beautiful Mind? it is not about what any of us would do in a situation. It is about a deeply disturbed mind in an almost impossible place. It is almost impossible to forcibly commit someone who has not done something violent yet. This is going on in NJ where they are trying to change the law to allow people to be forcibly commited and it is not easy. I don't have any answers just great sadness.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:22:56 GMT -5
Snerd, if you're just trying to play Devil's Advocate, you need to at least come up with some decent reasoning behind your arguments. Mentally ill people rarely "choose" to do anything - only people of sound mind have choices.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:25:05 GMT -5
I think the thing that was a huge factor in all this was the Yates's socioeconomic status. In terms of regular healthcare, even poor people can get the care they need. It may be more difficult, but it's possible. Psychiatric care for the poor is subpar to say the least. The Yates's were poor, otherwise they would be able to afford either a live-in healthcare worker for Andrea or to have a full-time nanny while Andrea was admitted full-time to a psych ward. I thought he was an engineer with NASA. Not poor. Okay, maybe they were not poor. But I can see how one person working to support a family of 7 may strain the budget a little bit. If they could really afford to give her proper care, what's the real story? Did the husband really not care at all?
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:26:07 GMT -5
based on the fact the husband was unwilling to comply with more intervention than that Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fun&action=display&thread=2677&page=3#ixzz1CpoVJzK2OK, because you don't particularly care for him and who does anyway, you want to spin that? Why? As for having another child, that is a 2 way street, she may have literally begged him to have another child as well. YOu don't know so why don't we stick to the facts. And, how about blaming the crime on the person that actually committed the crime? Someone has to be the grown up and realize that the mentally ill person is not always capable of making the right choices. Mental illness can cloud a person's judgment. That is part of the reason it is called mental illness.
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:27:38 GMT -5
It was after the birth of Luke, her fourth son, that Andrea became depressed. Her condition may have been brought on by the extremist sermons of Michael Peter Woroniecki, the preacher who sold them their bus. Andrea’s family was concerned by the way that Andrea was so captivated by the minister’s words.[6]
On June 16, 1999, Rusty found Andrea shaking and chewing her fingers. The next day, she attempted to commit suicide by overdosing on pills. She was admitted to the hospital, and prescribed antidepressants. Soon after her release, she begged her husband to let her die as she held a knife up to her neck. Once again hospitalized, she was given a mixture of medications including Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug. Her condition improved immediately, and she was prescribed Haldol on her release. After that, Rusty moved the family into a small house for the sake of Andrea’s health. Things were going very well.[6] In July 1999, Yates succumbed to a nervous breakdown, which culminated in two suicide attempts and two psychiatric hospitalizations that summer. She was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.[7]
If true- expecting another attempt wasn't much of a leap.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:29:00 GMT -5
I believe there is enough blame to go around. 5 kids, violent murders - it can be her fault AND his fault. I don't believe he was completely inculpable.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 15:30:37 GMT -5
based on the fact the husband was unwilling to comply with more intervention than that Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fun&action=display&thread=2677&page=3#ixzz1CpoVJzK2OK, because you don't particularly care for him and who does anyway, you want to spin that? Why? As for having another child, that is a 2 way street, she may have literally begged him to have another child as well. You don't know so why don't we stick to the facts. And, how about blaming the crime on the person that actually committed the crime? This is one of the cases I wish I could put your head chemically in the same place she was. I wish she would have been able to find another way but I totally understand why she might not have. Blaming her for the crime for me is close to the level of blaming a parent for stealing medicine to save their child's life that they couldn't obtain any other way. Are they crimes? Yes. Maybe one of these days I can make a film illuminating how it feels to be the person who has postpartum depression like a Beautiful Mind attempted to show schizophrenia. Maybe more people would have compassion and understand why these things happen the way they do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 15:35:19 GMT -5
Why am I playing "Devil's Advocate" ? Because I don't believe we should dogpile the husband and inflict further pain on a father who has lost off his children? He might actually be a feeling human being too. And, he may have made mistakes in his marriage or in helping her deal with her illness, who hasn't? But it is easy to just toss someone else under the bus I guess. He is a feeling human being too. That doesn't mean that he didn't have enough red flags to fill his small house that he intentionally ignored. He made serious enough mistakes that his wife and children are dead. Can't really toss someone under the bus who intentionally walked there, can you? (Here, let me drag you out so I can throw you back under. )
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Post by marjar on Feb 2, 2011 15:35:36 GMT -5
Yes, she might not have been able to pull herself out. But, neither can a family member simply pull a relative out of schizophrenia either. You are asking her husband to do something that nobody else can or could have done. Curing her mental illness - no, he could not have. Protecting his children and keeping them out of harm's way - I think he could have done more.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:36:11 GMT -5
Well, she is appealing her conviction. Maybe she will luck out and be released.
Good ol Russell has moved on - remarried and is having children and raising them in a solid Christian household.
And the 5 dead kids - well at least they got away from their messed up childhood.
See, it all works out for everyone.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 2, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5
She is insane - so who knows why she doesn't want that.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 2, 2011 15:39:00 GMT -5
Yes, she might not have been able to pull herself out. But, neither can a family member simply pull a relative out of schizophrenia either. You are asking her husband to do something that nobody else can or could have done. Its impossible for her to pull herself out. The point is you don't leave a severely depressed person alone. You don't leave a person with severe postpartum depression alone with children. Its really that simple.
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