Genius or Tyrant?

[sheilaincali]

I work for a family owned business. Most of my job is for one company but I still do the bookkeeping for another company. All owned by my dad. My brother is the "Operations Manager" for the company that I just do the bookkeeping for.

He and I do not see eye to eye on most work related things, but I am curious to know what all your opinions are regarding his latest decree.

When I went to the lunchroom today (stand alone building with the employees lockers, lunchroom and bathrooms) I found the door locked. I had to download the time clock data into my hand held data device. One of the more senior (and trusted) employees saw me and came over to unlock the door.

I asked him why it was locked in the middle of the day. He said "your brother decided people were taking too many breaks so now he will unlock it in the morning so people can clock in, for the morning break, lunch, the afternoon break and when they can leave at the end of the day.

So throughout the day the employees have no access to bathrooms, drinking water, etc.

So my question- Is he a genius for effectively cracking down on people wasting company time or is he a tyrant taking away people's right to use the bathroom?

[swamp]

I think he's a tyrant. Deal with the problem employee, don't treat everyone like a child.

[Bluerobin]

Idiot! He should never have allowed it in the first place. He can put in buzzers to remind folks when to start and end breaks, but there will always be the exception he asked to finish a project before work or break. If people start leaving, it was too much.

[milee]

Keeping people from the bathroom will not end well. My prediction is that this will work itself out on it's own without you needing to say a word.

[swamp]

Sept 19, 2012 9:50:09 GMT -5 milee said:

Keeping people from the bathroom will not end well. My prediction is that this will work itself out on it's own without you needing to say a word.

someone's going to get a ticket for peeing in public?

[milee]

Sept 19, 2012 9:51:53 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 19, 2012 9:50:09 GMT -5 milee said:

Keeping people from the bathroom will not end well. My prediction is that this will work itself out on it's own without you needing to say a word.

someone's going to get a ticket for peeing in public?

No need to pee in public. I'm sure the brother's private office has an appropriate receptacle.

[swamp]

Sept 19, 2012 9:52:33 GMT -5 milee said:

Sept 19, 2012 9:51:53 GMT -5 swamp said:

someone's going to get a ticket for peeing in public?

No need to pee in public. I'm sure the brother's private office has an appropriate receptacle.

Like his coffee cup.

[wodehouse]

I would think there would be workplace laws about providing "facilities"

[milee]

Yes. I was thinking desk drawer.

[swamp]

Sept 19, 2012 9:55:01 GMT -5 milee said:

Yes. I was thinking desk drawer.

apparently, I am meaner than milee...........

[milee]

And that is saying a lot.

[Deleted]

Some of us do not have bladders that allow for strategic peeing. It is a fact of life. With this problem, I would never apply to a job where I had to pee at a certain time or ask permission. I also do not object to working on my time occasionally to make up that whole 3 extra minutes a day in the toilet...

We are not in Communist China and you are not running the production line at Ford, then you should let people pee when necessary or I hope they leave for employers that will.

[Deleted]

I am not sure that is legal Sheila. Sounds like he is just an ass.

[zibazinski]

Fire the jerk who is causing the problem. Why does everyone have to suffer because of one person? This reminds me of school where the whole class gets punished because of one or two a-holes. It wasn't right then and it isn't right now. Just easy on the "boss."

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

How is your brother going to get any work done if he's always having to run back and forth buzzing people in and out of the break room?

Or is he going to make everyone come in, leave and take breaks at the exact same time?

[wvugurl26]

He's an idiot! Pretty sure you already knew that. Not saying Jimmy was a great employee but if this is typical of your brother, I could see why he wouldn't want to work for him.

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2012 9:54:59 GMT -5 wodehouse said:

I would think there would be workplace laws about providing "facilities"

I am pretty sure there are. I would speak to your father about this, it can cause a legal issue.

[Deleted]

I don't think that's legal.

Under the general industry sanitation standards 29 CFR 1910.141, employers must provide restrooms for workers and permit reasonable access to toilet facilities when the employee needs to use them. Employers who violate these worker safety standards are subject to fines and penalties. OSHA permits employers to set reasonable limits on restroom usage. For example, in a factory setting where one missing employee can shut down the entire production line, an employee may have to signal for a replacement before using the restroom. However, in cases where the employee had to wait too long for the replacement, OSHA has ruled that the employer is in violation of the standard.

One OSHA compliance letter says that “Certainly any restriction that the employer imposes on bathroom use, such as the ones you describe, would have to be reviewed by an OSHA compliance officer on a case by case basis to determine if it is reasonable and does not interfere with the requirement that employees be allowed to use toilet facilities when they need to do so.” (The added emphasis is ours.)

If employees were permitted restroom access only 3 times per day and didn’t have the option of asking a manager to unlock the restroom, or if the manager sometimes denied access to the toilets, that would almost certainly be a violation of OSHA standards.

[/b]

www.humanresourceblog.com/2008/04/02/is-it-legal-to-restrict-workplace-bathroom-visits-to-a-certian-number-a-day/

Not to mention that treating workers like children doesn't do wonders for morale. Your brother is being an ass.

[Tiny]

Wow. He's a tyrant or a bully. Since good old human nature makes us (more or less) reflect back to other people their emotions or behavior his childish behavior (treating his employees like children) will simply make them behave even more like children. I expect he's in for a world of new and unpleasant misbehavior. I suspect his employees will find new and creative ways to 'slack' - especially since they now will feel they are 'sticking it to the man' and that they 'deserve' to slack off since they are being treated so poorly.

I would have thought a general 'rah rah lets go team! with some reminders about the rules/expectations' speech to all the employees would have been in order. If after that there's a few slackers they need to be dealt with separately.

[sheilaincali]

FWIW - I fall on the side of thinking he is a tyrant. He is pretty much your classic bully- picks on anyone he sees as weaker than him and avoids anyone stronger than him. As a manager quite frankly he sucks. This is why he and I disagree on pretty much everything when it comes to business situations. I have been warning my dad for years that his idiot son is going to get the company sued.

Its entirely a problem of his own creation. We are insanely busy this year- like record breaking year so we have had to hire new people like crazy. The conference room is right across the hall from my office so I can overhear all the interviews. It's pretty much a "you have a pulse and you filled out an application? Perfect- you can start tomorrow" He doesn't ask them any questions, verify any information, check references, etc. We have horrible turnover this year. So people will work for a few hours, take a lunch and never come back. Some will work for a couple of days and quit. Etc. I know for a fact that the employees see him as a tyrant and it really only takes one person to stand and file a report.

Going to have to print out Anne's information and show him that he can't lock them out of the bathroom facilities like that. To make matters worse- the first aid kit is in there.

I hate to bother my dad because he is out of town this week at a jobsite for other company I work for. But if BB (Boy Blunder) doesn't unlock the door I'll have no choice.

[sheilaincali]

BTW_ Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

[wvugurl26]

I understand not wanting to bother your dad but your brother is putting all of your livelihoods at risk by being an idiot.

[midjd]

If he doesn't cooperate, point out that now that management is aware that what he is doing is illegal, he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on if an employee decides to sue. Most employment lawyers take cases on contingency, so any disgruntled employee can file a lawsuit and keep you guys busy for a while.

[Deleted]

www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=22932

What's interesting is that restricting bathroom usage can be considered discrimination against women and disabled people, since they have a higher frequency of bathroom usage.

[PK Bucko]

There's a legality issue here. For sure.

But, he'll learn his lesson when somebody gets an extreme case of explosive diarrhea and wrecks the place because they can't get into the bathroom....

I can hear the lawyers dancing into the courtroom now.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Sept 19, 2012 10:44:29 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=22932

What's interesting is that restricting bathroom usage can be considered discrimination against women and disabled people, since they have a higher frequency of bathroom usage.

And the absolute last thing you want to do is to get OSHA on your tail. All it's going to do is to take a disgruntled employee who can't get to the bathroom and the business is going to wind up being fined.

How's that going to go over?

[Taxman10]

Sept 19, 2012 10:06:44 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I don't think that's legal.

Under the general industry sanitation standards 29 CFR 1910.141, employers must provide restrooms for workers and permit reasonable access to toilet facilities when the employee needs to use them. Employers who violate these worker safety standards are subject to fines and penalties. OSHA permits employers to set reasonable limits on restroom usage. For example, in a factory setting where one missing employee can shut down the entire production line, an employee may have to signal for a replacement before using the restroom. However, in cases where the employee had to wait too long for the replacement, OSHA has ruled that the employer is in violation of the standard.

One OSHA compliance letter says that “Certainly any restriction that the employer imposes on bathroom use, such as the ones you describe, would have to be reviewed by an OSHA compliance officer on a case by case basis to determine if it is reasonable and does not interfere with the requirement that employees be allowed to use toilet facilities when they need to do so.” (The added emphasis is ours.)

If employees were permitted restroom access only 3 times per day and didn’t have the option of asking a manager to unlock the restroom, or if the manager sometimes denied access to the toilets, that would almost certainly be a violation of OSHA standards.

[/b]

www.humanresourceblog.com/2008/04/02/is-it-legal-to-restrict-workplace-bathroom-visits-to-a-certian-number-a-day/

Not to mention that treating workers like children doesn't do wonders for morale. Your brother is being an ass.[/quote]

It doesn't sound unreasonable or illegal.

If the worker work 8-4 30 with 1/2 hour lunch. The bathrooms are probably available:

8 am

10 am break

12-12 30 pm lunch

2 30 pm break

4 30 pm leave

so at no point does anyone have to "hold it" for more than 2 hours. JFC, who can't wait 2 hrs between pees??

your brother is a genius, and efficiency is probably way up in the shop.

Now if he could just limit your web-surfing, maybe the office would be just as efficient.

[Deleted]

JFC, who can't wait 2 hrs between pees??

Pregnant women, people with diabetes, people who take certain medications, people with kidney/bladder infections, people with IBS . . .

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

so at no point does anyone have to "hold it" for more than 2 hours. JFC, who can't wait 2 hrs between pees??

So you've got the entire company trying to get into the bathroom to pee during their 30 minute lunch or 15 minute break.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense.....

[busymom]

After having my kids, no I wouldn't be able to wait until breaktime, or lunch to use the bathroom. My bladder can't wait that long.


I'm just waiting for someone to pee in his office! ;D