handyman2
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 23:56:33 GMT -5
Posts: 3,087
|
Post by handyman2 on Jul 8, 2012 20:21:24 GMT -5
SOME WILL DIE OFF
Sadly that is whats happening in parts of the world to the homo-sapien specie today.
|
|
Don Perignon
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2, 2011 18:46:42 GMT -5
Posts: 2,024
|
Post by Don Perignon on Jul 8, 2012 22:52:26 GMT -5
When the USSR crumbled, a lot of pensioners were left high and dry.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jul 8, 2012 23:03:49 GMT -5
Is this true? I'm not saying it isn't (I really have no idea.) But it occurs to me that I've never see anything to substantiate the claim, and it seems like something at risk of being repeated so often that it's more of a mantra than a proven assumption. :-\ Seriously? It's happening in your own country, but you're unaware of it? If it's happening in Canada, why would you think it isn't happening in the US? We have to import migrant workers to do jobs Canadians refuse to do.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 8, 2012 23:26:37 GMT -5
Is this true? I'm not saying it isn't (I really have no idea.) But it occurs to me that I've never see anything to substantiate the claim, and it seems like something at risk of being repeated so often that it's more of a mantra than a proven assumption. :-\ Seriously? It's happening in your own country, but you're unaware of it? If it's happening in Canada, why would you think it isn't happening in the US? We have to import migrant workers to do jobs Canadians refuse to do. I gathered that earlier from your talk about the "help wanted" signs everywhere in Montreal. However, I shall point out: 1. Canada is not the US and the recession has hit places there far harder than anywhere here. 2. Montreal is not Canada, and Quebec as a whole is infamous for its dependence and lavish social welfare (I trust you're aware of this). The pain of unemployment in Quebec isn't the pain of unemployment in New Jersey. 3. Canada has a tenth of the US's population, over a larger land mass, with a resource-based economy. There might be other reasons we're importing skilled (note: skilled) migrant workers from other countries besides the fact that we just don't want to do certain jobs. 4. As I've argued in other threads, Canada's fertility rate is markedly lower than in the US. The only way we can keep our population relatively stable is through high immigration.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:42:07 GMT -5
As SF points out, consumer spending hasn't been too shabby. The US had a blowout Q4 '11, and the latest consumer deleveraging isn't much to write home about (one of the few instances I disagree with Tyler). With the problem being unsustainable levels of consumption, it's this a bit like asking how we can get more coke into Americans' nostrils? it is not like asking that at all. the point is this, Virgil: if we want to increase employment, if that is our STATED GOAL, the only way you do that is to increase productive need, and the only way to do that is through consumption. so, it really doesn't matter if people have enough, or if they want to pay down their credit cards. those FACTS lead us away from full employment. if you answer is "nothing", i can accept that. that would, of course, lead to an obvious conclusion about unemployment, however.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:43:26 GMT -5
... more like we should find out what industry needs and train people for it starting at grade zero.... Public schools, paid with my tax dollars, should become corporate training facilities from kindergarten on? like it or not, that is precisely what they are. the only question that remains is whether you want them to be really shitty at it, or great at it.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:45:04 GMT -5
Don't forget to add in the shooting of mountain lions in Lonewolf's town. Once again, due to man's intervention, we have created a situation with the cats where it is easier for them to take a penned animal, rather than fend for themselves. I know you guys see the connection. I just don't understand why you don't see the solution. what solution? the "final" one?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:46:04 GMT -5
Zibzanski has the cure-all for the problem-take all the fawns away from the does and adopt them out to the mountain lions. kudo for this. it is probably untrue, but it is awesomely freaky. ;D
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:47:34 GMT -5
Reduce their basic needs? When you reduce the current supplies which they are using to meet their basic needs, those less able to take advantage of the remaining supply will be forced to move in the attempt to fill those basic needs. Some will die as a result. Bill. We have illegal's begging for jobs that no one in this country will take. We have citizens refusing to work, while having no problem living off of those who do. Put it together. if the entire family is made homeless in your "weaning" exercise, are you ok having street urchins stripping the rings from the fingers of debutantes in NYC?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:48:20 GMT -5
Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system. they will take your guns, too, just to make the fight more even.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:49:19 GMT -5
what solution? the "final" one? No, silly. The obvious one. Think about it. Good Night. my head is full of possibilities. either you narrow it down for me, or i will choose the worst one i can think of.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:50:23 GMT -5
Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system. So, what happens (and the time is here) where the deer population has grown so large that there is no longer enough food or water to keep them alive. What then? bring in the high yield farming gear?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:52:17 GMT -5
SOME WILL DIE OFF Sadly that is whats happening in parts of the world to the homo-sapien specie today. it is virtually unknown in the West, where we try to be more civilized than to let people starve to death in the richest countries on Earth. it is, however, sadly common in the shithole we call the third world. it troubles me that some seem to think it is OK to turn the US into a 3rd world nation. however, it does explain why people are comfortable cheering us on, even in areas where we rank 19th, and falling.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:53:37 GMT -5
Is this true? I'm not saying it isn't (I really have no idea.) But it occurs to me that I've never see anything to substantiate the claim, and it seems like something at risk of being repeated so often that it's more of a mantra than a proven assumption. :-\ Immigration raided a strawberry plant grower in our area a few years ago. Even though we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the state, this grower could not find anyone to work his fields. He said he had to fly some of his relatives in from out of state to help him. And didn't we just read about a McDonalds a couple of years ago, that got raided and the owner couldn't find replacements? i think they should all sell crank. there is good money in it, and the market of middle class white kids with jobs seems pretty much bottomless.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 17, 2024 23:03:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 23:53:50 GMT -5
Yep... but then the deer eat the grass... and so we are all connected in the great Circle of Life. Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system. That's what I think too. People are gonna break in and loot; that's the price of being greedy wealthy at the expense of others.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:55:12 GMT -5
Seriously? It's happening in your own country, but you're unaware of it? If it's happening in Canada, why would you think it isn't happening in the US? We have to import migrant workers to do jobs Canadians refuse to do. I gathered that earlier from your talk about the "help wanted" signs everywhere in Montreal. However, I shall point out: 1. Canada is not the US and the recession has hit places there far harder than anywhere here. there are a lot of reasons for that that are worth exploring- but the primary one i would point to is how incredibly well your banking regulations work, and how it made a housing meltdown like we had here virtually impossible.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 23:56:56 GMT -5
Yep... but then the deer eat the grass... and so we are all connected in the great Circle of Life. Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system. That's what I think too. People are gonna break in and loot; that's the price of being greedy wealthy at the expense of others. there was a time when rich people knew this, and would throw a bone to the poor to show what good guys they were. these days, all they can do is gripe about how they can't create jobs if they are taxed. this will come to no good for them if they don't start thinking about how this will all play out.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,512
|
Post by billisonboard on Jul 9, 2012 0:02:30 GMT -5
... Once again, due to man's intervention, we have created a situation with the cats where it is easier for them to take a penned animal, rather than fend for themselves. ... Do you think that cats in an environment without humans puff out their chests and take on the biggest baddest prey they can find or do they pounce on the one with a broken leg?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2012 0:06:36 GMT -5
... Once again, due to man's intervention, we have created a situation with the cats where it is easier for them to take a penned animal, rather than fend for themselves. ... Do you think that cats in an environment without humans puff out their chests and take on the biggest baddest prey they can find or do they pounce on the one with a broken leg? i don't want to live in a society where we measure our behavior against dogs.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 17, 2024 23:03:58 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 0:37:33 GMT -5
there was a time when rich people knew this, and would throw a bone to the poor to show what good guys they were. these days, all they can do is gripe about how they can't create jobs if they are taxed. this will come to no good for them if they don't start thinking about how this will all play out. Yeh, complacency perhaps. The odds are stacked increasingly in their favour though; no need to placate the poor when you have a veritable arsenal of technological, legislative, ideological etc. mechanisms to defend yourself from any endeavours even remotely resembling equalisation from the Great Unwashed. Not that equalisation should be considered desirable, I hasten to add.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,233
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Jul 9, 2012 0:51:13 GMT -5
there was a time when rich people knew this, and would throw a bone to the poor to show what good guys they were. these days, all they can do is gripe about how they can't create jobs if they are taxed. this will come to no good for them if they don't start thinking about how this will all play out. Yeh, complacency perhaps. The odds are stacked increasingly in their favour though; no need to placate the poor when you have a veritable arsenal of technological, legislative, ideological etc. mechanisms to defend yourself from any endeavours even remotely resembling equalisation from the Great Unwashed. Not that equalisation should be considered desirable, I hasten to add. i think if the 99% feel enough pain, it won't matter what grand illusions they present to explain it all. as lone pointed out, when our bellies take over, action will follow. it is just not likely going to be the kind of action that the 1% will want to see.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 9, 2012 1:49:30 GMT -5
Let me see if I have this right. I want to buy a new car, but, I don't trust the government, so I don't buy a new car? OOOOKAY! Fearing new taxes, job losses, an unbelievable deficit, and our out-of-control government, I sure wouldn't be spending money on a new car. I think I'd be better off spending my money on raising chickens. I'll give you job losses...but I do not think the average person spends too much time worrying about the deficit or govt spending. I wish they did more, but they don't. Even Dick Cheney said deficits don't matter.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jul 9, 2012 1:50:31 GMT -5
Canada has a tenth of the US's population, over a larger land mass, with a resource-based economy. There might be other reasons we're importing skilled (note: skilled) migrant workers from other countries besides the fact that we just don't want to do certain jobs. ------------------ I'm not talking about skilled migrant workers...we call those citizens-in-waiting who will have virtually no problem in being granted citizenship. I'm talking about migrant workers from Mexico and South America who will do jobs Canadians absolutely refuse to do....working in onion fields, orchards and Christmas tree farms. We import those by the thousands, and yes, we send them back. The fact remains that there ARE jobs that Canadians, as well as Americans, just will not do. You can argue that it's anecdotal or a myth as much as you want, but it's still a fact. Look it up.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jul 9, 2012 2:07:46 GMT -5
Is this true? I'm not saying it isn't (I really have no idea.) But it occurs to me that I've never see anything to substantiate the claim, and it seems like something at risk of being repeated so often that it's more of a mantra than a proven assumption. :-\ Potato farmer Keith Smith saw most of his immigrant workers leave after Alabama's tough immigration law took effect, so he hired Americans. It hasn't worked out: most show up late, work slower than seasoned farm hands and are ready to call it a day after lunch or by midafternoon. Some quit after a single day. In Alabama and other parts of the country, farmers must look beyond the nation's borders for labour because many Americans simply don't want the backbreaking, low-paying jobs immigrants are willing to take. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051690/Americans-refuse-immigrant-jobs-open-Alabama.html#ixzz206fvshFiIt's a dirty job - and no one in New York wants to do it. Or so say the stable owners at Belmont Park, who are battling the feds for the right to import foreign workers to take care of their Thoroughbreds, says the New York Daily News. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services officials have said nay to the Long Island race track's request for temporary visas to let in nearly 100 grooms, hotwalkers and exercise riders. The New York Thoroughbred Horsemen's Association has asked a judge to overturn the agency's ruling, claiming the move threatens to wreak havoc on the racing season. New Yorkers, the association says, have failed to respond to help-wanted ads. And the stable hands who work at Belmont say they know why. thefederalist-gary.blogspot.ca/2011/10/new-yorkers-refuse-to-do-dirty-jobs.html
|
|
zipity
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 0:32:17 GMT -5
Posts: 1,101
|
Post by zipity on Jul 9, 2012 7:35:26 GMT -5
And the stable hands who work at Belmont say they know why.Interesting article, one piece of information that they didn't offer was how much Belmont is willing to pay their handlers. The Federalist points to the reason being that Americans are lazy and in the article "SHOCK: Americans are lazy bastards" thefederalist-gary.blogspot.com/2011/09/shock-americans-are-lazy-bastards.html they point to what they call a radical thought "If you don't work you don't eat." They then show a couple picture of farms from the days when Americans weren't such lazy bastards: Just a thought but maybe it's not the American farm workers who are lazy bastards but perhaps it's the American farmer. If you don't work you don't eat makes a lot more sense when you own the farm. Advertising today, work at our wages and you still won't eat doesn't seem to be attracting the talent farmers need. Instead of bailing them out with guest worker programs, let today's HUGE farms be split back up into smaller family farms and you might see a new generation of farmers who actually enjoy farming.
|
|
workpublic
Junior Associate
Catch and release please
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 14:01:48 GMT -5
Posts: 5,551
Favorite Drink: Heineken
|
Post by workpublic on Jul 9, 2012 7:51:45 GMT -5
agree.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,512
|
Post by billisonboard on Jul 9, 2012 8:31:20 GMT -5
There are certainly plenty of Mexicans who are too lazy to take the jobs that Americans don't want to do. They just stay in Mexico. There are certainly plenty of Americans not too lazy to take the jobs that illegals take. They are just too busy doing different jobs.
|
|
Driftr
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 10, 2011 13:08:15 GMT -5
Posts: 3,478
|
Post by Driftr on Jul 9, 2012 8:31:48 GMT -5
the policies are not helping the individual get over this. that is where the problem lies. we are encouraging more consumption in an atmosphere where people are reducing debt. it is 180 degrees the opposite of how we should be thinking, from a policy standpoint. the question is: how do we get people to stop spending on credit? what incentives could we put on the consumer credit system that would allow people to pay down debt AND spend? Sorry. Late to the thread, but I didn't see these fundamental questions addressed. You get people to stop spending on credit by allowing interest rates to normalize. Given the insane debt levels that people are carrying today, I cannot think of a way that people can pay down their debt and spend at the same time without wage increases. The only way I can think of to increase wages that much without attendant inflation increases is to drastically improve efficiency. I cannot think of the next great thing that will make that possible.
|
|
zipity
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 0:32:17 GMT -5
Posts: 1,101
|
Post by zipity on Jul 9, 2012 9:01:15 GMT -5
You get people to stop spending on credit by allowing interest rates to normalize.
Absolutely. What's the incentive to put money away when with rates sitting where they are. It's a different situation if you have enough cash to invest in something with a decent return but without that initial investment you're typically stuck with bank savings accounts. Today's savings account will usually return a negative value once you factor in bank fees.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 9, 2012 9:19:24 GMT -5
I found this article, noting three things: - it is about Canada; not the US
- the SAWP employs 26,000 seasonal migrant workers according to the article. This is approximately 0.2% of our workforce. If our U3 unemployment was a full percentage point higher (in line with the US's), and if even one in five of these additional 1% were willing to take on the jobs, there would be no SAWP program
- the existence of the SAWP program doesn't preclude Canadian workers from wanting the jobs. Consider that if an employer has a legal, established labour pool of migrant workers already in place from "the good times", why throw out this system to hire locally during a downturn? Personally, I'd consider the migrant workers "my employees" and give them preference when re-hiring. Would you not?
- the article clearly indicates that the SAWP program is affected by the problem of "off-periods when their main employer has no work for them"
I'm saying: look at the numbers. The very existence of the SAWP is proof that a labour shortage existed at one time, and Canada being Canada, I agree with you that we're still experiencing a labour shortage. But without exaggerating I can say the SAWP program is a drop in the bucket. Looking to a country like the US—much higher population density, higher unemployment, higher growth and fertility—assuming they have no legal migrant worker program that is their equivalent "drop in the bucket", is it not reasonable to question whether their slack is already used up? Incidentally, the US does have a legal migrant worker system, and I've yet to find an article that says anything positive about it.
|
|