billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 14:12:59 GMT -5
... sorta- except we have "F" trackers that are actually really well suited to running businesses, and "A" trackers who can barely tie their shoes right now. so it is NOT the same thing at all, imo. I am a little confused. You talked about a national standard. I said not all would meet it. You said two tracks. I thought you meant two standards so I said not all would meet either of two. You followed with the above. So I have to fall back and consider that you are referring to developing a system in which kids take course of study based on where they should eventually fall within the adult job market. Is that correct? If so, four questions before I would want to comment further: 1) At what age do multiple tracks begin? 2) Are kids involuntarily assigned a track? 3) If so, who assigns them to a track? 4) Also if so, what happens if a student fails to satisfy the requirements of the track to which they are assigned? (i.e. If the current "F" tracker suited to be the business manager continues to decide to simply be a "F-up")
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 14:25:57 GMT -5
Both, the end result, either way, will be the same. If we continue to supply either with food and water, they will never have a need to forage on their own and will eventually over populate and bust through your fence. Just as I am sure you will not provide extra water when you see more deer carcasses along the sides of the roadways around your house because you are no longer supplying them water, I am saying that we will need to harden ourselves to the carcasses we will see if we start to dry up the welfare "watering hole".
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 14:34:38 GMT -5
You honest believe that there will not be casualties when you dry up the deer's safe water supply?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 8, 2012 14:39:49 GMT -5
As SF points out, consumer spending hasn't been too shabby. The US had a blowout Q4 '11, and the latest consumer deleveraging isn't much to write home about (one of the few instances I disagree with Tyler). With the problem being unsustainable levels of consumption, it's this a bit like asking how we can get more coke into Americans' nostrils?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 14:42:35 GMT -5
... sorta- except we have "F" trackers that are actually really well suited to running businesses, and "A" trackers who can barely tie their shoes right now. so it is NOT the same thing at all, imo. I am a little confused. You talked about a national standard. I said not all would meet it. You said two tracks. I thought you meant two standards so I said not all would meet either of two. You followed with the above. that was in reply to "aren't we already doing that?" (which is how i read your response). that was my way of saying NO, we are not.So I have to fall back and consider that you are referring to developing a system in which kids take course of study based on where they should eventually fall within the adult job market. Is that correct? more like we should find out what industry needs and train people for it starting at grade zero.If so, four questions before I would want to comment further: 1) At what age do multiple tracks begin? kindergarden2) Are kids involuntarily assigned a track? no3) If so, who assigns them to a track? 4) Also if so, what happens if a student fails to satisfy the requirements of the track to which they are assigned? (i.e. If the current "F" tracker suited to be the business manager continues to decide to simply be a "F-up") they can go for whatever track they please. but if they are getting F's in the A track and A's in the F track, it will be pretty obvious which track they are qualified for.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 8, 2012 14:43:25 GMT -5
Just as I am sure you will not provide extra water when you see more deer carcasses along the sides of the roadways around your house because you are no longer supplying them water, I am saying that we will need to harden ourselves to the carcasses we will see if we start to dry up the welfare "watering hole". If done right and slowly, there should be no carcasses. we could always wait for starving people to eat the carcasses, i guess.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 14:48:06 GMT -5
I am a little confused. You talked about a national standard. I said not all would meet it. You said two tracks. I thought you meant two standards so I said not all would meet either of two. You followed with the above. that was in reply to "aren't we already doing that?" (which is how i read your response). that was my way of saying NO, we are not.So I have to fall back and consider that you are referring to developing a system in which kids take course of study based on where they should eventually fall within the adult job market. Is that correct? more like we should find out what industry needs and train people for it starting at grade zero.If so, four questions before I would want to comment further: 1) At what age do multiple tracks begin? kindergarden2) Are kids involuntarily assigned a track? no3) If so, who assigns them to a track? 4) Also if so, what happens if a student fails to satisfy the requirements of the track to which they are assigned? (i.e. If the current "F" tracker suited to be the business manager continues to decide to simply be a "F-up") they can go for whatever track they please. but if they are getting F's in the A track and A's in the F track, it will be pretty obvious which track they are qualified for. There are already tracks, unlabeled and unofficial, but tracks none the less in schools. Should they be formalized? Why?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 14:50:49 GMT -5
... more like we should find out what industry needs and train people for it starting at grade zero.... Public schools, paid with my tax dollars, should become corporate training facilities from kindergarten on?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 15:04:20 GMT -5
You honest believe that there will not be casualties when you dry up the deer's safe water supply? Our herd has all the food and water they need, 5 miles up on the mountain. They have simply become too tame, fat and lazy and too accustomed to eating goodies to climb up and get it. By slowly taking away the water and goodies, they will, in order to survive, learn to adapt. ... The herd has become so over populated that they have consumed all of our un-fenced plants, along with their natural habitat. They are now attempting to break into our fenced areas. .... Maybe they will get better in their attempts to break into your fenced areas. EDIT: Wait, are we talking about the deer or people.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 15:25:36 GMT -5
I think you are going to find a deer carcass tangled up in your fence one of these days.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 15:56:51 GMT -5
I think you are going to find a deer carcass tangled up in your fence one of these days. LOL!!! Maybe and I will blame myself for having created the problem to begin with, one I should have rectified years ago. The deer/people will still be dead but if it makes you feel better to blame yourself, go for it. They won't be any deader.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:17:53 GMT -5
... It is your opinion that they will be dead. I don't see it that way. Animals situated in a safe environment in which all their basic needs are constantly met have a higher survival rate than animals in a more exposed environment in which all their basic needs might or might not be met at any given time. Are you arguing that is untrue?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 8, 2012 16:18:20 GMT -5
Our herd has all the food and water they need, 5 miles up on the mountain. They have simply become too tame, fat and lazy and too accustomed to eating goodies to climb up and get it. ---------------- Too tame? Really? I wonder it could have anything to do with you feeding them?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:27:29 GMT -5
Our herd has all the food and water they need, 5 miles up on the mountain. They have simply become too tame, fat and lazy and too accustomed to eating goodies to climb up and get it. ---------------- Too tame? Really? I wonder it could have anything to do with you feeding them? That is the argument being made. It is an analogy for welfare. The deer do not leave the area that they are surviving in and go some where else. This means that the deer are "too tame" because that safe environment is provided by a human being. If it were a well protected valley provided by nature, the deer would be in paradise. For some reason, lonewolf has determined that it will be better for the deer to slowly remove their means of survival that she has control over and send them out to attempt to find some other area in which they may or may not survive as well.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 8, 2012 16:35:36 GMT -5
Don't forget to add in the shooting of mountain lions in Lonewolf's town.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:39:05 GMT -5
Don't forget to add in the shooting of mountain lions in Lonewolf's town. Was it in town or 5 miles up on the mountain?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:41:18 GMT -5
Don't forget to add in the shooting of mountain lions in Lonewolf's town. Once again, due to man's intervention, we have created a situation with the cats where it is easier for them to take a penned animal, rather than fend for themselves. I know you guys see the connection. I just don't understand why you don't see the solution. I have no trouble seeing the solution that you propose. Stop feeding the animals and the herd will be thinned. I just don't understand how you don't see the bloody consequences.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 8, 2012 16:45:04 GMT -5
Zibzanski has the cure-all for the problem-take all the fawns away from the does and adopt them out to the mountain lions.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:50:34 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 16:56:06 GMT -5
Animals situated in a safe environment in which all their basic needs are constantly met have a higher survival rate than animals in a more exposed environment in which all their basic needs might or might not be met at any given time. Are you arguing that is untrue? True. This is why their basic needs must be reduced gradually. Reduce their basic needs? When you reduce the current supplies which they are using to meet their basic needs, those less able to take advantage of the remaining supply will be forced to move in the attempt to fill those basic needs. Some will die as a result.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 8, 2012 17:25:50 GMT -5
I can see most here do not understand wild creatures like deer. You feed a herd of deer and they will become genetically inbred and desease will set in. When they have to forage they spread out and keep a stronger genetic code. Or a bear. You start feeding a bear and he will lose his instenct to hunt for food and when you stop feeding him he will starve to death. Much like people. You change their instinct to self survival and nothing good comes of it.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 8, 2012 17:27:07 GMT -5
Zibzanski has the cure-all for the problem-take all the fawns away from the does and adopt them out to the mountain lions. Zibzanski believes the children of parents on welfare should be adopted out or put into foster homes. So why not fawns of does living off of public handouts?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 17:43:13 GMT -5
... when you stop feeding him he will starve to death. Much like people. ... yep, dead.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 8, 2012 18:30:16 GMT -5
Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 18:34:53 GMT -5
Not sure what article you were linking me to. But, basically you're believing that if I don't hand over the apples and supply the water, it will be taken from me by force? You indicated that they were going for the fence.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 18:38:57 GMT -5
Reduce their basic needs? When you reduce the current supplies which they are using to meet their basic needs, those less able to take advantage of the remaining supply will be forced to move in the attempt to fill those basic needs. Some will die as a result. Bill. We have illegal's begging for jobs that no one in this country will take. We have citizens refusing to work, while having no problem living off of those who do. Put it together. If you think we need to thin the herd, get politicians elected who will enact the policies. Just don't claim that it can be done bloodlessly.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Jul 8, 2012 19:07:06 GMT -5
So... If the DNR of any state allows the public to feed deer until the herd is expanded beyond its carrying capacity, the habitat is over browsed, the animals are infected with disease would it make sense to acknowledge the long term consequences caused from the failed policy and make the necessary changes or would you pass a law demanding requiring the public to feed more? Like it or not decision have consequences both short term and long term. Unfortunately most do not even try to understand the long term effect of what appears to be generosity today.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 8, 2012 19:54:31 GMT -5
Set the mountain lions on 'em.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 8, 2012 20:01:57 GMT -5
Yes. The deer will break into your home to take your money and food. So the system continuing as it has been will help prevent that even if some deer are just working the system. So, what happens (and the time is here) where the deer population has grown so large that there is no longer enough food or water to keep them alive. What then? Some will die off.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 8, 2012 20:20:36 GMT -5
Is this true?
I'm not saying it isn't (I really have no idea.) But it occurs to me that I've never see anything to substantiate the claim, and it seems like something at risk of being repeated so often that it's more of a mantra than a proven assumption. :-\
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