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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2012 11:47:32 GMT -5
I had labs drawn prior to having my hysterectomy. The local hospital used to have a lab tech onsite at my docs office a couple days a week. When she called my name, with the door open, she loudly said "So, looks like we are trying to decide why you are having hormonal problems today. Possibly a hysterectomy in your future?" When I left the room, everyone there knew why I was at the doctor. Everyone. I mentioned this to the doctor the next time I saw him, because I didn't appreciate an entire room full of strangers, here in our small town, knowing my medical situation. What if I had a job interview with one of them the next week? I would have made a stink like no one's business. I wouldn't have gone to the doctor, but the director of the lab. Doctors have no control over how a lab is run, they only have control over their own office.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2012 11:51:36 GMT -5
Thistalk was given by our hospital's director of compliance, who is a registered nurse/ attorney. Wow. Anyway, she provided examples where the feds have really enforced the law against both the individual person as well as the institution. If a hospital laptop gets lost and it's not encrypted, or the password is written down at home and someone gets into it, that's a $1,500,000 fine to the institution, and all hell breaks loose for the user. Every potential patient that could have been compromised has to be notified by the institution.
OMG! You should see what happens when a laptop of patient data is stolen from work.
My institution is saying that ALL laptops that have patient data on them must be encrypted, even personal laptops.
I have patient data on my laptop and it is not encrypted, but I do not have patient identifiers on it. If there is anything associated with the patient on it that would identify them (I think even birth date), I'd be encrypted.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 22, 2012 11:56:31 GMT -5
The local hospital used to have a lab tech onsite at my docs office a couple days a week. When she called my name, with the door open, she loudly said "So, looks like we are trying to decide why you are having hormonal problems today. Possibly a hysterectomy in your future?"
Geez. I would have been super pissed. You might want to consider registering an official complaint, if you haven't already.
It's like getting arrested for driving drunk. Some people ( not me ) think that the penalties are too stiff, but they are what they are. This is the law, not what we "think" is appropriate. Sorry about the original poster's friend, and I hope that he gets a new job, but that doesn't mean we're " calling him a murderer" or something. It's just the new reality of the medical field, whether you agree with it or not.
To put another spin on this, there are tons of laws we don't always agree with but we have to comply with them because the penalties are stronger than our need to break them. I'm pretty sure most of us would like to go 90 on the freeway from time to time, and could do so completely safely, but we usually don't because we don't want to risk a ticket. And we might feel like that's pretty dumb. But the law is still there and we follow it because we don't want to risk the alternative.
Another example: an 18 year old can be prosecuted for having totally consensual sex with his 17 year old girlfriend. I personally think that's pretty dumb, because it's obviously not "statutory rape" in the same way that a 21 year old having sex with a 13 year old is statutory rape. But you can still get nailed for it, so it's better not to risk it at all. The "dumb" law can still impose some pretty awful penalties for those who break it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 22, 2012 12:45:40 GMT -5
Actually, I would imagine that the institution was looking to avoid being fined. A $1.5 million fine could be difficult to swallow for some instances of breaching HIPAA guidelines and the hospital is trying to sweep it under the carpet ASAP, before the hammer comes down on them.
That's certainly possibly.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 22, 2012 13:06:57 GMT -5
Actually, I would imagine that the institution was looking to avoid being fined. A $1.5 million fine could be difficult to swallow for some instances of breaching HIPAA guidelines and the hospital is trying to sweep it under the carpet ASAP, before the hammer comes down on them.That's certainly possibly. I have no first hand experience, so I'll defer to your judgment, but wouldn't that make it worse for the institution if it comes out later? My thought is always apologize fast and take every step possible to fix what can be fixed. I would think that covering it up would make it that much worse for them down the road.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 22, 2012 13:14:55 GMT -5
I have no first hand experience, so I'll defer to your judgment, but wouldn't that make it worse for the institution if it comes out later? My thought is always apologize fast and take every step possible to fix what can be fixed. I would think that covering it up would make it that much worse for them down the road.
I would think in a situation where a hospital was risking a major suit, it would be to their benefit to try and keep it under wraps and hope the statute of limitations ran out before anyone caught on.
In a perfect world, if someone violated my HIPPA rights I'd prefer they fess up and make amends, but I know it doesn't work that way in our sue-happy society.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 22, 2012 13:21:53 GMT -5
That could be FB. The stress would kill me I think though...
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 22, 2012 13:40:48 GMT -5
I have no first hand experience, so I'll defer to your judgment, but wouldn't that make it worse for the institution if it comes out later? My thought is always apologize fast and take every step possible to fix what can be fixed. I would think that covering it up would make it that much worse for them down the road.
You would think so, but hospitals rarely admit problems. It's entirely possible that no one but the health professionals recognize the breach of confidentiality and they're not about to squeal on themselves.
Interesting study done at the VA about a decade ago concerning errors by physicians. If a doctor admits that there's a screw up at the beginning, the family of the patient is far less willing to sue as long as the issue is made right.
There was a huge article about this in the local paper, but as far as I can tell, it still is given little consideration.
In a perfect world, if someone violated my HIPPA rights I'd prefer they fess up and make amends, but I know it doesn't work that way in our sue-happy society.
How would you know, unless you had repercussions (like the loss of a job)? I don't know if the patient whose confidentiality that was breached would benefit from the fines imposed. I doubt it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 22, 2012 13:51:38 GMT -5
How would you know, unless you had repercussions (like the loss of a job)? I don't know if the patient whose confidentiality that was breached would benefit from the fines imposed. I doubt it.
Well, that's the point. I wouldn't know UNLESS there were repercussions, but I would still like to know that my rights were violated and X action was taken against the person who violated them. I realize that's unrealistic - but me personally, if the company was upfront with me and apologized and told me the action they'd taken, I probably wouldn't sue (assuming I suffered no consequences from the violation). But if I found out later somehow, THEN I would sue just because they hid it.
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Catseye
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Post by Catseye on May 22, 2012 15:27:33 GMT -5
I work in an industry where following HIPAA regulations is mandatory. If I were to violate HIPAA policy, even accidentally, I'd lose my job so fast, it would make my head spin. You better believe I toe the line when it comes to HIPAA! It doesn't matter how I feel about the policy, I have to respect it. The law is the law is the law. I can't understand anyone who can't wrap their head around that fact. Especially anyone with an advanced degree.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 18:04:42 GMT -5
I think the drunk driving analogy on the previous page was a good one.
If you drive drunk, even if nothing happens, the penalty is steep because you could have killed someone.
If you violate HIPAA, the penalty is steep because you could have killed someone. (We were talking before about a pregnancy that was revealed against the patient's wishes. Look at the spike in murder rates for women who are pregnant - there really are women for whom revealing that information could cost them their life)
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Post by Firebird on May 22, 2012 18:18:32 GMT -5
If you violate HIPAA, the penalty is steep because you could have killed someone. (We were talking before about a pregnancy that was revealed against the patient's wishes. Look at the spike in murder rates for women who are pregnant - there really are women for whom revealing that information could cost them their life)
Good explanation, sarah. There are all kinds of reasons why violating HIPPA could be devastating for people.
And even if it would "only" embarrass someone for their supervisor, mother, spouse, or whoever to find out that they had an ovarian cyst, what right does anyone have to determine whether or not that potential embarrassment is reason enough to keep someone's private info private?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 22:28:53 GMT -5
I am not taking Hippa lightly at all. He lost his job. If he violated Hippa, then there are consequences to doing so including losing your job. I have said that like 100x. It is over, a done deal. I am in no way saying that he should have kept his job. I am trying to address the "what now". And, again, the "how could you be so stupid, you stupid, idiot, moron, loser, bad, terrible person, let's beat you up some more for your transgression until we extract out pound of flesh" crowd doesn't seem to be very helpful advice to me.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 22:33:57 GMT -5
I had labs drawn prior to having my hysterectomy. The local hospital used to have a lab tech onsite at my docs office a couple days a week. When she called my name, with the door open, she loudly said "So, looks like we are trying to decide why you are having hormonal problems today. Possibly a hysterectomy in your future?" When I left the room, everyone there knew why I was at the doctor. Everyone. I mentioned this to the doctor the next time I saw him, because I didn't appreciate an entire room full of strangers, here in our small town, knowing my medical situation. What if I had a job interview with one of them the next week? Hippa does not necessarily apply in those kinds of situations. When you are in the ER, in the hospital, in a bed, etc, you might not be in a private room or there is no private areas for doctors to talk to you. When i was in the hospital, it was a semiprivate room. And, a team of doctors came in and pulled the curtain and proceeded to tell this woman in the next bed that she had terminal cancer and on and on . It was very disconcerting as i lay there with my own illness hearing every medical detail of that woman's life. I complained to the staff but they were unsympathetic and said that is the way it goes with semi private rooms. I would not have liked having all my information put out there either. If we really want true privacy, we are going to have to make changes throughout the healthcare system to do so.
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Post by Firebird on May 22, 2012 22:40:23 GMT -5
I am not taking Hippa lightly at all. He lost his job. If he violated Hippa, then there are consequences to doing so including losing your job. I have said that like 100x. It is over, a done deal. I am in no way saying that he should have kept his job. I am trying to address the "what now". And, again, the "how could you be so stupid, you stupid, idiot, moron, loser, bad, terrible person, let's beat you up some more for your transgression until we extract out pound of flesh" crowd doesn't seem to be very helpful advice to me. And I haven't seen anyone saying anything like that.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 22:44:17 GMT -5
I had labs drawn prior to having my hysterectomy. The local hospital used to have a lab tech onsite at my docs office a couple days a week. When she called my name, with the door open, she loudly said "So, looks like we are trying to decide why you are having hormonal problems today. Possibly a hysterectomy in your future?" When I left the room, everyone there knew why I was at the doctor. Everyone. I mentioned this to the doctor the next time I saw him, because I didn't appreciate an entire room full of strangers, here in our small town, knowing my medical situation. What if I had a job interview with one of them the next week? Hippa does not necessarily apply in those kinds of situations. When you are in the ER, in the hospital, in a bed, etc, you might not be in a private room or there is no private areas for doctors to talk to you. When i was in the hospital, it was a semiprivate room. And, a team of doctors came in and pulled the curtain and proceeded to tell this woman in the next bed that she had terminal cancer and on and on . It was very disconcerting as i lay there with my own illness hearing every medical detail of that woman's life. I complained to the staff but they were unsympathetic and said that is the way it goes with semi private rooms. I would not have liked having all my information put out there either. If we really want true privacy, we are going to have to make changes throughout the healthcare system to do so. Yes it most certainly does apply. The problem is, that if you consent to your information being public, or semi-public, then they are ok under HIPAA. So by the woman not saying that she wants the discussion in a private room, the doctor is safe.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2012 22:46:26 GMT -5
When i was in the hospital, it was a semiprivate room. And, a team of doctors came in and pulled the curtain and proceeded to tell this woman in the next bed that she had terminal cancer and on and on . It was very disconcerting as i lay there with my own illness hearing every medical detail of that woman's life. I complained to the staff but they were unsympathetic ------------------------ Wow. How terrible for YOU.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 22:53:27 GMT -5
It was awful. It was very upsetting. If a nurse or someone would have simply come to my room and taken me to a lounge or something , i would have gladly gotten up and left for awhile. It was extremely uncomfortable to have to listen to that. I certainly didn't want to listen to that. I was in with chest pain and that certainly didn't help!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 5:57:09 GMT -5
And, my point is that there are still confidentiality issues and that the way hospitals are designed and ERs and so forth, that pulling simply pulling a curtain doesn't block the sound from transmitting.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 23, 2012 10:25:50 GMT -5
I had labs drawn prior to having my hysterectomy. The local hospital used to have a lab tech onsite at my docs office a couple days a week. When she called my name, with the door open, she loudly said "So, looks like we are trying to decide why you are having hormonal problems today. Possibly a hysterectomy in your future?" When I left the room, everyone there knew why I was at the doctor. Everyone. I mentioned this to the doctor the next time I saw him, because I didn't appreciate an entire room full of strangers, here in our small town, knowing my medical situation. What if I had a job interview with one of them the next week? Hippa does not necessarily apply in those kinds of situations. When you are in the ER, in the hospital, in a bed, etc, you might not be in a private room or there is no private areas for doctors to talk to you. When i was in the hospital, it was a semiprivate room. And, a team of doctors came in and pulled the curtain and proceeded to tell this woman in the next bed that she had terminal cancer and on and on . It was very disconcerting as i lay there with my own illness hearing every medical detail of that woman's life. I complained to the staff but they were unsympathetic and said that is the way it goes with semi private rooms. I would not have liked having all my information put out there either. If we really want true privacy, we are going to have to make changes throughout the healthcare system to do so. Actually, yes it does. How long ago were you in the hospital? HIPAA got bite in 2009, where a lot more attention was paid to this. What happened to Shasta should never have happened. From 2003-2009, the act has gotten more stringent with regards to what constitutes an infraction and penalties.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2012 11:07:30 GMT -5
Shooby is focused on the "now what" for this individual. we don't even know what the violation was or anything. All the recriminations isn't going to help them. They owe 200k for their education - they need to find a new start, and i'd give it good odds that they are not going to violate hippa again when/if they get this chance.
I've seen a lot of posts talking about "what now" and none of them are based on recriminations. The only reason a few people keep reiterating the gravity of his actions is because a few other people keep insisting it wasn't that big of a deal and he shouldn't have to have his whole life ruined over a simple mistake. People try to explain that it was more than "a simple mistake" and the debate continues.
Some mistakes are simply professional suicide, and this is one of them. I liken it to a lawyer violating lawyer-client confidentiality. You might have had a darn good reason or you might have simply slipped but either way you can be disbarred, sued, etc. and there's a decent chance you won't be able to practice law anymore.
It's hard to know exactly how this guy should move forward without knowing the specifics of his situation. Personally, I would move and start over somewhere else - especially if I didn't have kids or a family. The school loans would suck for sure, but what could I do except find a way to pay them off? Perhaps a hospital would hire me to do some kind of administration that didn't involve patient records and I could at least be earning some money while I figured out what I wanted my new career to be.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 23, 2012 11:17:21 GMT -5
As far as "what now," I responded on the second or third page - well before we got into the HIPAA violations are no big deal conversation. I still think that, depending on the mistake, he needs to step back and evaluate how it happened, WHY it happened, and what he is going to do to keep it from happening again. He doesn't have to (and probably shouldn't) share the results of this with future employers, but rushing into a new job without addressing what went wrong at the old job is never a good idea.
And depending on the size of his community, he probably will need to move. I come from a small town (10K or so) and live an hour away now, and there are people HERE who know the reputations of some of the doctors in my old community. Word definitely gets around.
Yes, that's prohably the most accurate comparison. And confidentiality is drilled into our heads from Day 1, too. You can tell all the stories about weird diseases or weird legal problems you want, so long as everything you say is either 1) a matter of public record; 2) OR there is no concievable way to identify the person about whom you're speaking. It takes a little practice, but it's not that difficult.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 11:44:07 GMT -5
Hippa does not necessarily apply in those kinds of situations. When you are in the ER, in the hospital, in a bed, etc, you might not be in a private room or there is no private areas for doctors to talk to you. When i was in the hospital, it was a semiprivate room. And, a team of doctors came in and pulled the curtain and proceeded to tell this woman in the next bed that she had terminal cancer and on and on . It was very disconcerting as i lay there with my own illness hearing every medical detail of that woman's life. I complained to the staff but they were unsympathetic and said that is the way it goes with semi private rooms. I would not have liked having all my information put out there either. If we really want true privacy, we are going to have to make changes throughout the healthcare system to do so. Actually, yes it does. How long ago were you in the hospital? HIPAA got bite in 2009, where a lot more attention was paid to this. What happened to Shasta should never have happened. From 2003-2009, the act has gotten more stringent with regards to what constitutes an infraction and penalties. I am well aware of how hospitals and clinics function. In many instances you are interviewed or medical information is discussed in an room with simply a curtain separating you from others. If you want to pretend that isn't reality, fine.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2012 12:10:12 GMT -5
I think inside a hospital/clinic is one thing. If you have a shared room and the doctor needs info fast, what are they supposed to do - kick out the roommate?
But a waiting room is a whole different story. People could be in there for anything. I ran into a colleague at one of my early prenatal appointments - this particular center was OB/GYN so she was not there for the same reason I was, and she had no reason to assume that I was there for a prenatal visit.
So I would have been absolutely incensed if the receptionist had said something like, "Okay [Firebird] you're here for your ten-week ultrasound, good for you!!" loudly enough for my coworker to hear what she would otherwise never know. It's a very small waiting room and their staff must be well trained because they've never said anything aloud about the nature of my visits at all.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 12:19:30 GMT -5
Well, here's an idea. Next time you go into the hospital, put on a shroud and have someone drive you in in an unmarked car. Then, only go by an # or letter, like Patient X or something. And, we will also have a device to alter your voice like Darth Vader.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2012 12:22:55 GMT -5
Even for mammos now, they tag you and the lady walks around quietly looking for you. Your name is not just hollered out for the whole world to hear.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 12:25:55 GMT -5
Of course, there should be precautions in place and respect for the confidentiality and privacy of everyone. My point is that there is no absolute and total privacy.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 12:36:31 GMT -5
As far as the OP, can he look for something where his education would be valuable, but it's a different setting from the one he was in? Does that make sense? Surely some people have the education and knowledge to be a doctor but they don't make their living as a practicing physician. I know it wasn't stated that he's a doctor, just an example. What else can he do with his education?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 12:38:34 GMT -5
Why can't he attempt to continue on his chosen career if he can find another job doing so?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 12:42:31 GMT -5
Why can't he attempt to continue on his chosen career if he can find another job doing so? I didn't say he couldn't. He can. It was just an idea to consider other options if there are any. IIRC, she said the guy was feeling desperate and didn't seem to be thinking to clearly. Maybe he'd feel a bit better if he figured out possibilities besides the chosen career.
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