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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:16:38 GMT -5
I think parents should certainly have the right if they choose to do so, but my conerns about homeschooling are the same as the OP's. I think some parents can overcome them, like seeking tutors or groups in subject areas they are weak, and seeking social activities outside the home to improve socialization. But the reality is not every homeschooling parent will be good at it, and it does a disservice to the kid. Just in my experience, home schooled kids grew up to be good at studying independently, but had substandard knowledge in certain fields, like math and science. If the children do the exams given by the state and they pass I see no reason for alarm. Where I live there are exams given and the children are monitored by the education system. If the parents can't manage it the children will be placed in school.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 9, 2012 12:16:50 GMT -5
"Home schooling is far superior to public schooling."
Such a broad, sweeping generalization can't be true. Each situation is different, and homeschooling isn't for every family or every kid. Some kids hate it, some love it. Some won't do well, others thrive. And not every public school is dismal, some are quite good. The quality of home school depends largely on the parents and how motivated they are.
It's worth pointing out that, as a group, homeschooling famlies are more affluent than the general public. They have to be to have two parents and one of them doesn't have to work. It's not an option for many famlies that need two incomes, or for parents who don't have the drive and desire to do a good job.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Feb 9, 2012 12:17:46 GMT -5
I believe this can be said about any type of education option. There is not one single approach that works for all children. The awkward exceptions stick out like a sore thumb, but I venture to guess you encounter more home schooled people than you might realize. Trust me, at the public school I went to, there were more kids with "socialization" issues than the home school kids I knew And don't even get me started on the private "schools" that some religious groups start. Terrifying. Parents need to have the freedom to do what they feel is best for their individual child. I also support yearly testing (or at least at the end of elementary & hs) to ensure a basic level of education for all citizens no matter which education route they happened to choose.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:19:28 GMT -5
"Home schooling is far superior to public schooling." Such a broad, sweeping generalization can't be true. Each situation is different, and homeschooling isn't for every family or every kid. Some kids hate it, some love it. Some won't do well, others thrive. And not every public school is dismal, some are quite good. The quality of home school depends largely on the parents and how motivated they are. It's worth pointing out that, as a group, homeschooling famlies are more affluent than the general public. They have to be to have two parents and one of them doesn't have to work. It's not an option for many famlies that need two incomes, or for parents who don't have the drive and desire to do a good job. That is a generalization but it does have merrit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 9, 2012 12:19:41 GMT -5
"And the drop out rate is worse now than ever before."
Not true, the high school graduation rate has never been higher. Wheather or not they deserve to graduate is another matter.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Feb 9, 2012 12:22:11 GMT -5
Looking a little closer into Santorum after Tuesday’s hat trick, I learned that his wife has/is homeschooling all of their seven children. This apparently stands him in good stead with the majority of the evangelical types. Obviously, parents should have the option of home schooling their kids. Having said that, personally I think it is a mistake and a disservice to those kids more often than it is a benefit. Off the top, there are a number of arguments that I can think of, against it. 1. Lack of socialization. It could impede the development of the necessary social and inter-personal skills necessary to function and succeed in the broader society. 2. Not all parents are qualified, even remotely, to teach young children let alone older ones in all the subject areas they need to be proficient in. 3. No separation of home and work. This may seem trifle to some but the living room or kitchen or… should be just that, and not a makeshift classroom. 4. The matter of appropriate discipline: mom, and usually it is the mom, may end up being too strict or too lackadaisical and forgiving. 5. The few people that I know who were homeschooled as kids are all awkward geeks. Any thoughts? We home-schooled from mid-3rd grade through 8th grade. We did it because we lived in an isolated po-dunk town where the public schools were not very good and the private alternatives were few and not much better (we went private from K-mid 3rd grade). Concern #1: DS was a social animal before being homeschooled and continued to be so. He participated in youth sports and other activities and had a lot of friends (both homeschooled and non-homeschooled). Concern #2: I am college educated, so this was not a problem for me. Another issue that is along this same line is that some people are just not cut out to teach....including some public school teachers. Concern #3: Most of our homeschooling took place in the office. Concern #4: This is what I think is the BIGGEST concern. I tended to err on the strict side, but I encountered many homeschoolers who were not that concerned because their schooling was too closely tied to their faith and the idea that God would take care of everything. It was not uncommon for many women to leave their kids at home to teach themselves while they went off to Bible study. Condern #5: Awkward geeks are found in all types of schooling situations; I don't think that homeschoolers have a monopoly on this personality type. Our DS was/is anything but a geek. We honestly felt that homeschooling was our only alternative short of driving 120 miles a day to shuttle DS to an out-of-town private school.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 9, 2012 12:23:42 GMT -5
"That is a generalization but it does have merit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks."
I think the reason home schooling is "Superior" isn't because homeschooling is necessarily a better method of teaching. But instead, it's a self selecting group of parents who are interested in their child's education, willing to go to a great deal of effort to educate their kids, and be involved in their lives. Those qualities would make it such that those kids would likely excel in public school as well, compared to the general population.
It's similar to saying the average P&M poster is more politically aware compared to the general population.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:27:34 GMT -5
"That is a generalization but it does have merit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks." I think the reason home schooling is "Superior" isn't because homeschooling is necessarily a better method of teaching. But instead, it's a self selecting group of parents who are interested in their child's education, willing to go to a great deal of effort to educate their kids, and be involved in their lives. Those qualities would make it such that those kids would likely excel in public school as well, compared to the general population. It's similar to saying the average P&M poster is more politically aware compared to the general population. Perhaps I am being naive but for what other reason would parents wish to homeschool other than to give their children a better education?
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Feb 9, 2012 12:27:39 GMT -5
"That is a generalization but it does have merit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks." I think the reason home schooling is "Superior" isn't because homeschooling is necessarily a better method of teaching. But instead, it's a self selecting group of parents who are interested in their child's education, willing to go to a great deal of effort to educate their kids, and be involved in their lives. Those qualities would make it such that those kids would likely excel in public school as well, compared to the general population. It's similar to saying the average P&M poster is more politically aware compared to the general population. The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:27:55 GMT -5
"Home schooling is far superior to public schooling." Such a broad, sweeping generalization can't be true. Each situation is different, and homeschooling isn't for every family or every kid. Some kids hate it, some love it. Some won't do well, others thrive. And not every public school is dismal, some are quite good. The quality of home school depends largely on the parents and how motivated they are. It's worth pointing out that, as a group, homeschooling famlies are more affluent than the general public. They have to be to have two parents and one of them doesn't have to work. It's not an option for many famlies that need two incomes, or for parents who don't have the drive and desire to do a good job. That is a generalization but it does have merrit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks. In theory yes, but if the kids are being taught by a parent who is a complete idiot, they probably won't do so well.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:28:51 GMT -5
"That is a generalization but it does have merit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks." I think the reason home schooling is "Superior" isn't because homeschooling is necessarily a better method of teaching. But instead, it's a self selecting group of parents who are interested in their child's education, willing to go to a great deal of effort to educate their kids, and be involved in their lives. Those qualities would make it such that those kids would likely excel in public school as well, compared to the general population. It's similar to saying the average P&M poster is more politically aware compared to the general population. The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think. Most of the homeschoolers around me do it for religious reasons, and frankly, some of those people have no business home schooling their kids. Their level of devotion to their religion borders on cultish.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Feb 9, 2012 12:30:01 GMT -5
The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think. Most of the homeschoolers around me do it for religious reasons, and frankly, some of those people have no business home schooling their kids. Their level of devotion to their religion borders on cultish. I completely agree and witnessed it first-hand.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:30:24 GMT -5
"That is a generalization but it does have merit. Surely when a child receives one on one education rather than one teacher to 30 + children the child would, in theory achieve better marks." I think the reason home schooling is "Superior" isn't because homeschooling is necessarily a better method of teaching. But instead, it's a self selecting group of parents who are interested in their child's education, willing to go to a great deal of effort to educate their kids, and be involved in their lives. Those qualities would make it such that those kids would likely excel in public school as well, compared to the general population. It's similar to saying the average P&M poster is more politically aware compared to the general population. The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think. ahhh.. okay I see so you are saying the religious people who home school due to religion and not a desire to have their children excel are less than stellar in their teaching skills?
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teppe2
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Post by teppe2 on Feb 9, 2012 12:32:30 GMT -5
We have just decided to pull our remaining 3 children out of the public education system, our oldest has been attending school overseas since 3rd grade.
We have a number of reasons, the to us low academic standard is only one (and we are in one of the highest rated districts in CA, the schools our children currently attend have a close to 900 API score and our kiddos are A with a couple of B's sprinkled in students testing above proficient in all categories). Compared to what our oldest is doing, the younger three are far behind but there are only so many hours in the day for us to play catch up.
More important than that though is the atmosphere and the rules of the schools. Children can be searched at any time for no reason at all for "safety". Our youngest son was told by his principal that it is his responsibility to not let anybody bully him. Someone wrote a hate message to our daughter on the bathroom wall. Wasn't informed about that by the school, the school also did not inform me that our son lost consciousness during class but did remember our phone number to tell us that our daughter has not yet "donated" the required $25 for a teacher present (there are 27 children in the class) and our son's decision to not participate in a gift swap for Valentine's Day was not acceptable. He did not have to accept the present but was still required to bring in a present valued at least $10.00. Lunch prices were raised to $4.50 to make up for loss in revenue from those on free or reduced lunch. Our children have been taking lunch this past year as we refuse to subsidize those on free and reduced lunch anymore. When I approached the school about making families on reduced lunch pay their bills I was told they can't do that.
On the academic side, homeschooling allows us to access college classes for our middle schooler, art and music are taught regularly by professionals (the elementary school only offers art and music as a private program for 1 hour every other month so we have paid out of our pocket ta make sure our children receive regular art and music instruction plus being involved in sports. P.E. was paid for by the PTA for the last two years but they cannot continue to do so and thus P.E. is on the chopping block for next year). In 4th grade our youngest son did not receive a science grade as not enough hours were taught. The time was used for reading instruction to prepare for the STAR test to make sure ESL students and other subgroups would test proficient. Have so far not seen much science instruction this year for either of our kids but they already had at least four pizza parties for which parents were asked to pay for. No school offers foreign language classes (both of us are multilingual so we have been working on that for a few years).
Anyways, hubby is an engineer with 4 master degrees two of which are from MIT, I have a science background and we will teach in conjunction with the local university and a charter school. I have no doubt our children will come out ahead in more ways than one. Hey, we can even teach religion (and neither my husband nor I are particularly religious but we consider knowing the basic tenets of at least the major religions part of a general education).
On a side note, we have a lot of home schooled children in this area, almost 90% are white and from well off households (median income is around $130,000), of the around 20 families I know only 1 homeschools for religious reasons. The rest do it either because they consider academic standards too low and/or like us are fed up with the administrative rules in the schools. Most private schools here are either based on religion or are all girl schools.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Feb 9, 2012 12:35:07 GMT -5
The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think. ahhh.. okay I see so you are saying the religious people who home school due to religion and not a desire to have thier children excell are less than stellar in their teaching skills? No, I would not go so far as to make that kind of sweeping generalization. I'm sure there are many who have stellar teaching skills AND decided on homeschooling due to their religion. I witnessed some who took both very seriously and some who were homeschooling more to inulate their kids from "the world" than to actually give them a good education.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:35:30 GMT -5
The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think. ahhh.. okay I see so you are saying the religious people who home school due to religion and not a desire to have their children excel are less than stellar in their teaching skills? No, I'm saying that people who teach their kids that cavemen rode dinosaurs and the only book they use is the Bible have no business homeschooling their kids. ETA: I do know some homeschoolers who have done it for religious reasons and have done a good job. They don't refuse to teach science.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 9, 2012 12:38:36 GMT -5
"The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think."
Yes, that's one of my main concerns as well. Sort of going along with the discipline issue.
Even as a Christian, I still believe in a balanced, well rounded, and secular education. While I think many home school parents do a good job, I fear that many who do it for religious reasons might be doing a disservice to their kids. Not teaching about science, for example, or God will take care of everything, or just non Bible topics in general.
I also think that some parents might use it as a mask for abusive or neglectful situations.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 9, 2012 12:43:05 GMT -5
"Home schooling is far superior to public schooling." Such a broad, sweeping generalization can't be true. Each situation is different, and homeschooling isn't for every family or every kid. Some kids hate it, some love it. Some won't do well, others thrive. And not every public school is dismal, some are quite good. The quality of home school depends largely on the parents and how motivated they are. It's worth pointing out that, as a group, homeschooling famlies are more affluent than the general public. They have to be to have two parents and one of them doesn't have to work. It's not an option for many famlies that need two incomes, or for parents who don't have the drive and desire to do a good job. I was talking from a learning and moral point of view. I went to a school that was ranked in the higher percentage out of high schools in the state. Drugs, alcohol and sex were happening between all the social groups, along with crazy amounts of bullying and peer pressure. There were a few groups that had some straight up kids, like the geeks and band(few in the band lol, the girls were freaks....). Ultimately I think the demoralization of our race stems from the parents, but public school is a hindrance on the parents abilities to keep children in check. I can't say that it was like that years before my time, but I think the social networking is making it even worse(especially the bullying). At least at home you can slowly introduce reality into your child's life and keep better discipline which is not needed as much since you don't have the major influence of peer pressure working against you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:43:35 GMT -5
"The exception are those parents who are more concerned about religion than education. I am not trying to make a sweeping generalization, but my experience was that it happens more than some might think." Yes, that's one of my main concerns as well. Sort of going along with the discipline issue. Even as a Christian, I still believe in a balanced, well rounded, and secular education. While I think many home school parents do a good job, I fear that many who do it for religious reasons might be doing a disservice to their kids. Not teaching about science, for example, or God will take care of everything, or just non Bible topics in general. I also think that some parents might use it as a mask for abusive or neglectful situations. Surely annual exams by the state would quickly show which children are not thriving by being home schooled? The children still have to follow and pass the curriculum for that state.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 9, 2012 12:46:30 GMT -5
I don't think all states require that you have to take exams or follow any type of state approved ciriculum in order to homeschool, but don't quote me on that.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 9, 2012 12:47:27 GMT -5
Yes, but don't you know that these things are an essential part of a child's development, and any parent that doesn't want to expose their children to these things are either neglectful or religious nutcases?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Feb 9, 2012 12:50:53 GMT -5
Just Apple - state exams are not required in MO, where we are. My parents always paid for us to take them though while we were being home schooled, so it could be part of our records should we need to transfer into another school. They also used them as proof that we were actually learning.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:51:01 GMT -5
I don't think all states require that you have to take exams or follow any type of state approved curriculum in order to home school, but don't quote me on that. They should, if they don't. I can't imagine why they wouldn't. How does a child get their GPA etc should they wish to attend university or college? The education system must track these children somehow.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 9, 2012 12:52:03 GMT -5
My son would have loved not spending the first six or more weeks at the beginning of every school year going over the same stuff he learned last year. Times how many years is a lot of wasted time when he could have been learning.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:52:50 GMT -5
Yes, but don't you know that these things are an essential part of a child's development, and any parent that doesn't want to expose their children to these things are either neglectful or religious nutcases? But isn't learning how to say "no" an important part of development? At some point, you have to let your kids loose to navigate the world. Not that I want my preteen kids having to say no to sex and drugs.............it's a tough balancing act..............
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Feb 9, 2012 12:52:58 GMT -5
JA - home school kids either use an accredited curriculum and take the required tests, or they take the GED.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 9, 2012 12:54:25 GMT -5
I do believe if the kids want to go to college in those cases then they need to take the test to get their GED.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 9, 2012 12:55:36 GMT -5
Frankly, idiot parents breed idiot children and the school isn't going to fix that.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:55:58 GMT -5
I do believe if the kids want to go to college in those cases then they need to take the test to get their GED. And take the SAT/ACT.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 9, 2012 12:57:00 GMT -5
Frankly, idiot parents breed idiot children and the school isn't going to fix that. Usually, but sometimes kids of idiot parents get the mentoring they need in school.
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