mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 22:38:42 GMT -5
You say that now, lonewolf, but your original contention was that nobody who didn't contribute deserved anything. You've got to own that one. I've also asked you more than once what you'd like to do to see that those who are milking the system are removed from the system. How would you go about doing that? You've got to find them, ensure they're able to work and can do something productive (or train them to do something productive), and get them jobs. That takes boots on the streets, suits in the offices, and educators in the field. Then, there must be jobs for them to do, and they must be paid so they can "contribute". I'm still waiting for you to tell us how you propose to get that done. Sorry. I've been posting on a lot of threads and missed your question. I probably did state that we should care for our own, thus relieving the rest of us from caring for them. So what? Isn't that what family and charities are suppose to do? How would I go about removing those who are milking the system? I'd do it slowly and with warning. "You have a certain amount of time to find work or you don't eat." Plain and simple. Why are we responsible for finding these people and ensuring they have jobs? No one found my folks their jobs. Did that answer your questions? Nice. In this economy, where even those who have been working and lost their jobs can't find work, you're going to tell people to get out there and get a job or starve. Ah, well. I suppose some of them can get jobs driving the body wagons to pick up the starved corpses of those who couldn't find anything. We'll need quite a few of those. Corpses left laying around tend to start to stink pretty quickly and that's going to impact you!
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 22:40:11 GMT -5
Where is it written your needs are to be met before someone else's, regardless of who's providing? I've gotta ask, lonewolf ... What would Jesus do?
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 22:43:31 GMT -5
<cringe> This is truly appalling. I'm outa here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2012 22:46:06 GMT -5
...Where is it written that someone else's needs be met before mine, when I am the one providing for those needs? Do you have needs that aren't being met?
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Feb 5, 2012 22:47:38 GMT -5
By the same logic, pensioners could also be given a limit to their pension benefits. Retirees that selfishly cling to life for more than (let's say) seven years bleed any pension system dry! ?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 22:49:34 GMT -5
You say that now, lonewolf, but your original contention was that nobody who didn't contribute deserved anything. You've got to own that one. I've also asked you more than once what you'd like to do to see that those who are milking the system are removed from the system. How would you go about doing that? You've got to find them, ensure they're able to work and can do something productive (or train them to do something productive), and get them jobs. That takes boots on the streets, suits in the offices, and educators in the field. Then, there must be jobs for them to do, and they must be paid so they can "contribute". I'm still waiting for you to tell us how you propose to get that done. Sorry. I've been posting on a lot of threads and missed your question. I probably did state that we should care for our own, thus relieving the rest of us from caring for them. So what? Isn't that what family and charities are suppose to do? i have a question, for you, lone. many people feel that this is ALSO an appropriate role for a NATION- to take care of those that are least among us. i take it you disagree, but WHY? WHY is it not appropriate for a nation such as ours to want to make it part of the purpose of government?? and if the majority believe this, does it really matter what you or i think?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 22:50:14 GMT -5
Run Lone Wolf! You've got more than just the pit bulls chasing you tonight.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 22:50:51 GMT -5
I'm affording both quite nicely, thanks; however, your last sentence raises a question, lonewolf. Whose survival? What makes your survival more important than someone else's survival. I do believe we may have arrived back to that insult again. You remember the one, don't you? The one about Democrats (liberals) being self-serving? The survival of those unable to pay their ever rising taxes.. my taxes have been falling ever since i turned 18. where do you live?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 22:51:23 GMT -5
Run Lone Wolf! You've got more than just the pit bulls chasing you tonight. i am not chasing. i actually LIKE lone wolf. i am just puzzled.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 22:52:54 GMT -5
I'm affording both quite nicely, thanks; however, your last sentence raises a question, lonewolf. Whose survival? What makes your survival more important than someone else's survival. I do believe we may have arrived back to that insult again. You remember the one, don't you? The one about Democrats (liberals) being self-serving? The survival of those unable to pay their ever rising taxes. It's so nice that you can afford to care for yourself and everyone else. Many people can't. Where is it written that someone else's needs be met before mine, when I am the one providing for those needs? lots of places. it has long been understood that those with the means bear a greater responsibility for the health and wellbeing of nations than those without. now, if you are one the bottom of the food chain, you get a pass.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Feb 5, 2012 23:04:41 GMT -5
Throughout History, no matter how large the national debt, there's always seems to be a way to find lots of money to spend on the next war. Curious, isn't it?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2012 23:07:52 GMT -5
Incidentally, a moderator or administrator placed a derogatory/snarky comment about "André Cold Duck" next to my name (ostensibly to humiliate me) and it was allowed... why? Hypocrisy is a Virtue... to Hypocrites. ---------------------------------- was meant as a joke, Antibabble.. a little poke at your name change to Don (rather than DOM) Perignon... was waiting to see if and when you would notice or comment. --------------------------- It was wrong. Mod or not, joke or not, you have NO right to mess with peoples' signatures or change anything under their avatars.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 5, 2012 23:20:58 GMT -5
Mean while back to the question of why they vote Democrat or Republican for that matter. For the average person out there it goes like this. My parents and grandparents were Democrat or Republican so I am what they are. My parents and grandparents are of a certain religion so I am of that same religion. There is more of that philosophy in the general public than you might think.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 23:30:42 GMT -5
Throughout History, no matter how large the national debt, there's always seems to be a way to find lots of money to spend on the next war. Curious, isn't it? it is. i consider this an "upper level argument". if we accept that we have X amount of money to spend, how much better is it to spend on the 20% of children who live below the poverty line, and have little hope for a decent future, than bombing the shit out of some nation that never meant us any harm?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 23:31:49 GMT -5
Mean while back to the question of why they vote Democrat or Republican for that matter. For the average person out there it goes like this. My parents and grandparents were Democrat or Republican so I am what they are. My parents and grandparents are of a certain religion so I am of that same religion. There is more of that philosophy in the general public than you might think. there are people out there that vote reliably "X" simply because it simplifies their lives to do so. they are not really part of the equation, if you know what i mean.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 6, 2012 3:41:46 GMT -5
"While we do not benefit from these programs directly, they do impact us. Is a social safety net a good use of our tax dollars is a very valid question for the middle class to ask. My answer is yes, but clearly that is not a universal position."
And higher taxes on the wealthy will impact the middle class too, in the form of higher prices and possibly fewer jobs. Thinking that changes on policy that don't affect your socioeconomic class won't have an effect on you is incorrect.
"With regards to the second part of your post, you are not now, nor will you ever be, privy to the inner workings of my vagina."
*shrugs* the answer to the question doesn't matter, I was trying to make a point. But clearly you suport pro choice. let's make it more general, can someone support pro choice laws when they've never had an abortion? Can a man support pro choice laws? The point is the same.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 6, 2012 3:44:34 GMT -5
I haven't ever seen anyone, ever, on these boards claim on getting rid of ALL social programs, and often say it should go to the truely needy/disabled.
But to me, giving an abled body person money, or the equivilant of money in the form of food stamps, section 8 housing and the like, is just a temporary solution at best. The system needs to be set up to get people self sufficient. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I'm fine with giving people a hand up when they're down. But everyone should only get so many chances.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 6, 2012 3:48:15 GMT -5
The fundamental problem with liberals isn't that they want to help the poor, but that they want to take other people's money to do it.
They fail to realize that a government powerful enough to give you everything you want is powerful enough to take everything you have. And will likely begin encorching on your civil liberties and freedoms (which is what is happening now).
I fail to see how demanding we raise taxes on people so we can provide more help to poor any different from grabbing a gun and mugging people, then turning around giving it to a homeless shelter.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 6, 2012 5:14:27 GMT -5
Really? So you are going to equate people talking about raising taxes with an actual mugging? Since you can't see the difference why don't you go file a report down at the police station and tell them someone was demanding tax increases and you felt mugged. Report back.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 6, 2012 9:43:55 GMT -5
Lets just take a little trip down memory lane... This country and the way it was structured was primarily because of an oppressive government that was hell bent on raising taxes against the will of many of the people. They apparently felt "mugged" by it and many of our forefathers sacrificed their limbs and lives to create our own government and made ever effort to form it in a way that their children would not have to deal with the same problem. However even they were aware of human tendencies and large governments tend to move away from center pretty quickly if not controlled and held accountable to the populous. It would have to be heart wrenching for them to see this country revert right back to the same type of government that they so bravely fought to get away from.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 6, 2012 9:44:35 GMT -5
Really? So you are going to equate people talking about raising taxes with an actual mugging? Since you can't see the difference why don't you go file a report down at the police station and tell them someone was demanding tax increases and you felt mugged. Report back. It's not a mugging for one very important reason: In 39 states you can shoot back at a mugger.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 6, 2012 9:49:25 GMT -5
Lets just take a little trip down memory lane... This country and the way it was structured was primarily because of an oppressive government that was hell bent on raising taxes against the will of many of the people. They apparently felt "mugged" by it and many of our forefathers sacrificed their limbs and lives to create our own government and made ever effort to form it in a way that their children would not have to deal with the same problem. However even they were aware of human tendencies and large governments tend to move away from center pretty quickly if not controlled and held accountable to the populous. It would have to be heart wrenching for them to see this country revert right back to the same type of government that they so bravely fought to get away from. Reading "Ameritopia"? A study of "Leviathan" explains why some simply don't get these arguments. They have accepted the premise of the government as a "sovereign" that cannot be challenged because we've surrendered all our rights and we have to check with our sovereign to see what our rights are: www.gradesaver.com/leviathan/study-guide/section4/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2012 10:23:00 GMT -5
"And higher taxes on the wealthy will impact the middle class too, in the form of higher prices and possibly fewer jobs."
Wow - a trickle down man, I see. I didn't think anyone still bought that line. We used to charge a much higher tax rate for capital gains - and the "job creators" did just fine.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 6, 2012 11:01:49 GMT -5
"And higher taxes on the wealthy will impact the middle class too, in the form of higher prices and possibly fewer jobs." Wow - a trickle down man, I see. I didn't think anyone still bought that line. We used to charge a much higher tax rate for capital gains - and the "job creators" did just fine. i am really getting tired of getting trickled on.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 6, 2012 11:06:32 GMT -5
I fail to see how demanding we raise taxes on people so we can provide more help to poor any different from grabbing a gun and mugging people, then turning around giving it to a homeless shelter. then you need to review something called the social contract. you can start with Rousseau. it is fundamental to the idea of a democratic republic. governments are enabled to provide for important societal purposes by the electorate. they are also enabled to create funding mechanisms for that purpose. it is really odd that so few people understand these basic ideas these days. must be a failure of public education.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 6, 2012 11:08:30 GMT -5
However even they were aware of human tendencies and large governments tend to move away from center pretty quickly if not controlled and held accountable to the populous. It would have to be heart wrenching for them to see this country revert right back to the same type of government that they so bravely fought to get away from. sorry- how is it that our government doesn't represent us? how is it that we are not allowed religious and speech rights? how is it that we don't have economic freedom? seriously, your post is ringing off the hyperbole scale for me, bro.
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TD2K
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Post by TD2K on Feb 6, 2012 11:08:57 GMT -5
"And higher taxes on the wealthy will impact the middle class too, in the form of higher prices and possibly fewer jobs." Wow - a trickle down man, I see. I didn't think anyone still bought that line. We used to charge a much higher tax rate for capital gains - and the "job creators" did just fine. i am really getting tired of getting trickled on. But it's nice and warm. For a bit
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 6, 2012 11:40:37 GMT -5
Lets just take a little trip down memory lane... This country and the way it was structured was primarily because of an oppressive government that was hell bent on raising taxes against the will of many of the people. They apparently felt "mugged" by it and many of our forefathers sacrificed their limbs and lives to create our own government and made ever effort to form it in a way that their children would not have to deal with the same problem. However even they were aware of human tendencies and large governments tend to move away from center pretty quickly if not controlled and held accountable to the populous. It would have to be heart wrenching for them to see this country revert right back to the same type of government that they so bravely fought to get away from. The Whiskey Rebellion www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/duel/peopleevents/pande22.html
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 6, 2012 11:42:57 GMT -5
I've generally voted democrat because the national republican candidates seem way too interested in what's happening in my bedroom and uterus and neglecting what's happening to my wallet. I do not vote party line, though. Just told that to DH yesterday. Oh, and I don't like the canditates the republicans have out there at all.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 6, 2012 11:43:47 GMT -5
Really? So you are going to equate people talking about raising taxes with an actual mugging? Since you can't see the difference why don't you go file a report down at the police station and tell them someone was demanding tax increases and you felt mugged. Report back. It's not a mugging for one very important reason: In 39 states you can shoot back at a mugger. It's not like a mugging because talking about something is not doing. Talking about raising taxes is different from actually raising taxes. I'm surprised you missed the difference between talk and actual physical action.
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