usaone
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Post by usaone on Feb 5, 2012 13:42:14 GMT -5
Welfare spending on people who don't really need it is less than 1% of our total Federal budget.
Yet we spend so much energy talking about it. We as Republicans need to focus on other matters if we want to win this election.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Feb 5, 2012 14:24:38 GMT -5
Yes, just as it's right for you to ask ME to pay for programs that YOU want to provide. That is the nature of a democratic society. I don't support any program that allows some to live off of the sweat of others. Are you against "marriage"? How about "Parenthood"? Are you against the institution of Capitalism itself? Do you plant and harvest your own wheat, mill the grain into flour, and bake your bread in an oven fired by fuel you gather personally? I don't think so. As far as I know, the incidence of authentic self-sustaining independent eremites/hermits is VERY small.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 5, 2012 14:33:19 GMT -5
I was talking about Sweden in my post but my tax rate is pretty high...much higher than most peoples in this country.
Then again, my future tax rate is going to have to be up around 50% to make up for the reckless spending in DC.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 5, 2012 15:17:51 GMT -5
"You'd be surprised how many folks with an effective federal tax rate under 15% that think a flat tax is a great idea. The people with no savings to pass to their heirs who oppose a "death tax." The people of only moderate wealth who oppose the Buffett rule."
You claim middle class conservatives oppose these ideas when it is against their financial best interest.
I don't see the connection. True, those issues wouldn't affect them directly, but neither would increasing welfare or foodstamps, which middle class liberals support. Why should middle class and wealthy liberals support increaes in food stamps? After all it won't affect them directly.
It's entirely reasonable to assume someone can oppose something on purely ideological grounds
Have you had an abortion? I presume you are pro choice, so how can you be that way if you've never had to exercise that option? If you never have an abortion, then it shouldn't matter if abortion is illegal right?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 5, 2012 15:29:42 GMT -5
Don't let them get to you lonewolf.
They don't understand that there are people who abuse the system, and social programs have created an atmoshere of dependancy. They don't understand that a society can't function where you reward the unproductive and punish the successful. They don't understand that the programs are set up to create generations of poor and indignant. They don't understand just giving people money doesn't fix their problems.
And because they can't acknowledge the fraud, waste, and abuse, true reform won't happen.
And they don't acknowledge that human society managed to survive for thousands of years without medicaide. The U.S survived for a long time too.
Personally, I think massive government social programs will be a cutionairy tale in far future, recognized as a great mistake that bankrupted powerful nations.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2012 15:37:57 GMT -5
... And they don't acknowledge that human society managed to survive for thousands of years without medicaide. The U.S survived for a long time too. ... Human society "managed to survive" without a hell of a lot that we have today.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 15:46:25 GMT -5
Don't let them get to you lonewolf. They don't understand that there are people who abuse the system, and social programs have created an atmoshere of dependancy. They don't understand that a society can't function where you reward the unproductive and punish the successful. They don't understand that the programs are set up to create generations of poor and indignant. They don't understand just giving people money doesn't fix their problems. And because they can't acknowledge the fraud, waste, and abuse, true reform won't happen. And they don't acknowledge that human society managed to survive for thousands of years without medicaide. The U.S survived for a long time too. Personally, I think massive government social programs will be a cutionairy tale in far future, recognized as a great mistake that bankrupted powerful nations. I see the waste and fraud, and it does annoy me, but I don't let it consume me. I also don't see how you can make a fraud proof system. And yes, humanity managed to "survive" but it wasn't pretty. I'm not willing to let kids starve or people to die in the streets because hospitals turn them away.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 15:52:40 GMT -5
did you bother to point out to her that welfare is only good for a couple of years, takes weeks or months to be approved, and is a degrading and humiliating experience? but moreover, what kind of person demands the sort of work schedule that deprives him or her of benefits? No arms are getting twisted to do this work, which has few benefits. This is an intelligent woman who is more than capable of getting the education needed to further herself. She's been living off of others for years and fully knows the welfare ropes. California is suppose to have a 60 month lifetime welfare cap for adults, but I know adults who have been receiving welfare for longer. i don't. and nobody i know who has taken welfare abused it. it just goes to show how one's personal experience shapes their outlook.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 15:53:27 GMT -5
Don't let them get to you lonewolf. They don't understand that there are people who abuse the system, horse.....fucking.....shit. and i disagree with the rest of your post. the system is not "set up" to create welfare mamas. it is set up to help people. the fact that people abuse it is sad, but it doesn't mean that it is intrinsically bad to try to help folks.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 15:58:14 GMT -5
... And they don't acknowledge that human society managed to survive for thousands of years without medicaide. The U.S survived for a long time too. ... Human society "managed to survive" without a hell of a lot that we have today. They also managed to survive by putting their elderly and disabled out in the forest to die.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 15:59:02 GMT -5
I see the waste and fraud, and it does annoy me, but I don't let it consume me. I also don't see how you can make a fraud proof system. And yes, humanity managed to "survive" but it wasn't pretty. I'm not willing to let kids starve or people to die in the streets because hospitals turn them away. Before the entitlement programs people took care of their own and we had many charities that handled those who had no one to care for them. We would have as many charities now if the government wasn't robbing the givers. My thought is, why give to charity when "that's what the government is doing." because the government doesn't help save the bats. ;D
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 15:59:22 GMT -5
My thought is: why not do both?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2012 15:59:33 GMT -5
Human society "managed to survive" without a hell of a lot that we have today. They also managed to survive by putting their elderly and disabled out in the forest to die. they managed to survived to age 35.......
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 16:15:17 GMT -5
My mother lives with me, lonewolf. Does that mean every family can do the same? No. It doesn't. My life isn't everyone's life, and neither is yours.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2012 16:15:42 GMT -5
The govt decided it wanted to be the father to babies whose mothers decided to have them without getting married or educated to support them. Then the govt decided to get involved in health care. Then education and policing the world. Anything the govt touches, it destroys.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 16:18:34 GMT -5
Human society "managed to survive" without a hell of a lot that we have today. They also managed to survive by putting their elderly and disabled out in the forest to die. The people with extreme developmental disabilities didnt survive. Also medical care consisted of a leech and some whiskey to kill the pain. I'll take modern medicine, thanks
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 16:19:50 GMT -5
they managed to survived to age 35....... Back then, my family took care of the sick and elderly. We didn't hear people complaining about losing their privacy when grandma came to live. And many of my elders lived long healthy lives. Gramma also died before she developed extensive complications from diabetes, advanced Alzheimer's, etc
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2012 16:34:30 GMT -5
You know what? I'd want to die rather than exist with those diseases.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 16:36:12 GMT -5
Gramma also died before she developed extensive complications from diabetes, advanced Alzheimer's, etc Grandparents on both my sides lived into their late 80's. Yeah mine did too. One had congestive heart failure and we have no idea why she lived so long. Another had crippling arthritis and had to go to a nursing home because nobody was able to physically assist him. He lived with my aunt for several years nut she got so she couldn't do it anymore.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 16:37:00 GMT -5
You're also not talking about that long ago, lonewolf. Social Security was there for the elderly, as were various other programs to help, if needed. Families also lived much closer to one another than they do today. Ours is a very mobile world, and quite different than it was even as few decades ago as you're highlighting.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 16:37:30 GMT -5
You know what? I'd want to die rather than exist with those diseases. I would too, but it's not socially acceptable to kill off old people when they become inconvenient. We need to help them out, and I'm ok with it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 5, 2012 16:38:34 GMT -5
You're also not talking about that long ago, lonewolf. Social Security was there for the elderly, as were various other programs to help, if needed. Families also lived much closer to one another than they do today. Ours is a very mobile world, and quite different than it was even as few decades ago as you're highlighting. And most of the elderly died shortly after retirement.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2012 16:39:05 GMT -5
I'm okay with it IF they wish it but if not, why should it be forced upon them?
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Feb 5, 2012 16:44:07 GMT -5
You are, Specifically, "It's a Good Life" where your opponents are sent to the corn field, and in your case, they're made into strawman to fit your argument. "Off to the corn field, libs!" Would thy majesty like any other impossible thing before breakfast? I think you can ask for nine more. Number of problems sanctmonious platitudes solved: 0 And if hate OUR government doing it so much, a one way ticket to Somalia should be to your liking. How did that "let them eat cake" society work out? Crystal balling, cross bearing crap. By having no system at all. The Conservatives' solution is to just let the emperor remain naked, that way you pay less in taxes, and isn't all that really matters? Wahhh! We're miserable and we hatez taxes!!!1!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 17:12:09 GMT -5
"You'd be surprised how many folks with an effective federal tax rate under 15% that think a flat tax is a great idea. The people with no savings to pass to their heirs who oppose a "death tax." The people of only moderate wealth who oppose the Buffett rule." You claim middle class conservatives oppose these ideas when it is against their financial best interest. I don't see the connection. True, those issues wouldn't affect them directly, but neither would increasing welfare or foodstamps, which middle class liberals support. Why should middle class and wealthy liberals support increaes in food stamps? After all it won't affect them directly. It's entirely reasonable to assume someone can oppose something on purely ideological grounds Have you had an abortion? I presume you are pro choice, so how can you be that way if you've never had to exercise that option? If you never have an abortion, then it shouldn't matter if abortion is illegal right? With regards to the first part of this post, you analogy doesn't hold water. As members of the middle class, we subsidize programs like welfare and SNAP (food stamps) through our tax dollars. While we do not benefit from these programs directly, they do impact us. Is a social safety net a good use of our tax dollars is a very valid question for the middle class to ask. My answer is yes, but clearly that is not a universal position. Raising the capital gains tax, on the other hand, would help alleviate the federal deficit. Provide revenue for needed federal programs and infrastructure, and not cost me a damn penny. Again, it's not a program that doesn't impact me - in this case, it is one from which I would benefit without personal cost. With regards to the second part of your post, you are not now, nor will you ever be, privy to the inner workings of my vagina.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 17:30:17 GMT -5
Additionally, Phoenix, not everybody is "all about me". Just because it does't impact me directly doesn't mean I don't care about those it does impact.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 17:33:53 GMT -5
mkitty, I'm not going to remove your post at this time because I'd like you to read it again to identify the problem areas. It may be removed later, however. What I am going to do is tell you clearly, it's time to stop with the snark. You can make your points without putting others down, making fun of others, or making smart remarks. Present ideas, not snark. Enough.
mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2012 17:41:34 GMT -5
The people with extreme developmental disabilities didnt survive.
Also medical care consisted of a leech and some whiskey to kill the pain. ------------------- Nonsense! It also consisted of bloodletting and trepanning. A lot of people died from these practices.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 5, 2012 17:47:38 GMT -5
Because people vote on a variety of issues. Democrats support programs and ideas that hispanics and african-americans find appealing like liberal immigration policies, welfare, medicaid and affirmative action. Yes, self serving policies that others must pay for. Try better, programs that help those who need help , for what ever reason. Granted some are probably taking advantage of ..but the majority are in need and have done thye best they can..and those liberals who feel that they want these folks to get help even if it is costing $ out of THEIR pocket..they have no problem with that..
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 5, 2012 17:51:04 GMT -5
The people with extreme developmental disabilities didnt survive. Also medical care consisted of a leech and some whiskey to kill the pain. ------------------- Nonsense! It also consisted of bloodletting and trepanning. A lot of people died from these practices. Actually, leeching is making a comeback. Not for bloodletting, it's not. Leeches are used to increase arterial circulation.
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