Why wouldn't you give your kids

[Deleted]

every options/advantages there is in this world if you can?

I came home to my wife watching this show on TLC called "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" that follows Irish Travellers living in Great Britain.


Some of the things that I wondered about was :

- the parents taking the kids out of school at a young age (11-13) to work if they are boys or help keeping the house clean / cooking / taking care of younger siblings if they are girls.

- Girls are raised/groomed to be housewives and nothing else (marriage at a young age is encouraged)

My wife and I saw poverty in Haiti and while in many cases the parents were dirt poor, couldn't afford to feed their kids, the last very last thing that would go was their child's education. You will be going to school hungry but damn it you will be going to school.

Also I am not against a woman choosing to be a stay at home wife/mom but I believe firmly it should be her choice, not one that is made for her. Why wouldn't you give your daughter the same opportunities as your son? What if the husband is abusive or leaves her?

I've never lived in England but I am sure/certain they are not as bad as Haiti and parents/families have more/better opportunities at their disposal. So why wouldn't you give your child a chance to experience it all and have access to good opportunities?

[Deleted]

And WTF with the grabbing tradition shit? I have a little sister and may God take mercy on the jerk that dares to do that to her in front of me

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2011 0:58:17 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

And WTF with the grabbing tradition shit? I have a little sister and may God take mercy on the jerk that dares to do that to her in front of me

You're a good brother (although I also believe firmly that women ought to be taught to fight for themselves, too).

In many families, including most middle-class American ones in the 1950s, the attitude was that women were going to stay home with the kids anyway, so why spend all that money on a college education? Two of my mother's 4 brothers have doctorates. She never even thought of college. She was in love with my Dad (who did go to college), she was going to be a housewife, so why bother? It worked out for them. They'e still happily married almost 60 years later.

That may be the mentality. I disagree with it and fortunately, somewhere along the line my parents must have decided college was important for all of us. My sister and I were pushed just as hard as my brthers were to think about what we were going to study and what we were going to do to earn a living. My mother later regretted not going to college because she thought it gave you some sort of "polish". Then she dropped me off at the University of Cincinnati in 1971 and saw girls in stringy hair, T-shirts and jeans and no bras, and decided maybe she was wrong anout that.

[zibazinski]

Some of it is a cultural thing but you would think that some mom would look up and want something better for her daughter than she had. Then again, it's like a cult. If you leave the fold, you leave everyone behind. Where could she send her underage child that would be safe? No family member would take her in, they are all gypsies.

[Deleted]

I saw one episode and the episode I saw didn't tell you about divorce rates or how happy they were or poverty rates etc. We are conditioned to believe education is all important. Their culture is very different and I really wonder if they like it.

[haapai]

Question: Why wouldn't you give your kids every options/advantages there is in this world if you can?
Answer: If they can live independently of you, they might leave and live a different sort of life.

Not educating your kids and encouraging them to marry (or at least breed) young is an excellent way of controlling them and keeping them close.

[phil5185]

Not educating your kids and encouraging them to marry (or at least breed) young is an excellent way of controlling them and keeping them close.

Two examples are Arabs and Amish.

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2011 8:05:25 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jun 11, 2011 0:58:17 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

And WTF with the grabbing tradition shit? I have a little sister and may God take mercy on the jerk that dares to do that to her in front of me

You're a good brother (although I also believe firmly that women ought to be taught to fight for themselves, too).

As a victim/survivor of dosmectic abuse my mom feels the same way you do.

When my step father brought up defensive classes / karate, my mom said :I already thought about that and was going to sign up (my sister, she was 5 at the time) next week.

My step dad was talking about my brother that was 6 and my mom said she would sign up my sister before she signs up my brother since if he takes after my sted dad and step brother (and he will) he will be about 6ft2/6ft5 and less likely to get attacked. Different story for my sister.

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2011 9:39:44 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I saw one episode and the episode I saw didn't tell you about divorce rates or how happy they were or poverty rates etc. We are conditioned to believe education is all important. Their culture is very different and I really wonder if they like it.

The episode I saw last night said divorce was almost none existent while domestic violence is present in close to 50% of marriage.

It encourage for the men to be dominant, the controller or lose his respect in the community aka the grabbing tradition. So first time you would kiss your future husband would be under the form of some sort of violence/force

[Deleted]

"The episode I saw last night said divorce was almost none existent while domestic violence is present in close to 50% of marriage."

Okay, that is awful. I wonder how many leave the community.

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2011 5:30:11 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Sometimes less is more and more advantages don't translate.

I agree but not even teaching or letting them learn how to read?

I am not talking about ridding lessons, private schools and MIT but the basics skills like reading.

In the one I saw last night this girl (and she was considered abnormal because at 16 she was still going to school and had a job instead of trying to get married) had to file all the forms for her friends when they went to play paint ball because all her friends could not read.

Or one the sister was getting married at 18 (she was already considered an old maid by their standards) so they had to take her little sister that was 13 out of school to take over the chores of cleaning, cooking and watching over the little ones since her sister will no longer be there to do it.

[Deleted]

There's a good book on the Roma (they prefer that term to Gypsy) community called "Bury Me Standing". The title comes from an old saying, "Bury me standing because I've been on my knees too long". The author is a Roma woman and she does cover topics such as child marriages. It doesn't sound like a good life overall- right now groups of Roma are encountering hostile conditions when they try to settle in the EU- France has made some well-publicized attempts to "send them back where they came from". Many lack marketable skills and fall back on pickpocketing tourists. But, as with many restrictive cultures, the ones who try to break out are ostracized by the rest of the community.

[haapai]

You'll find people that do things like this in every culture. Some of them do it under the guise of it being part of the culture. Others are just too afraid of being alone.

I always consider it a particularly bad sign when girls in an isolated or marginalized group start getting married younger than their mothers did.

[midjd]

It's like the crabs-in-a-barrel analogy. Some people would rather pull (or keep) everyone else down than pull themselves up. Unfortunately this can even extend to your own children.

This isn't exactly the same, but I see a little of this phenomenon among DH's second cousins who live in Hazard (no offense to the good people of Kentucky, but there are areas of eastern KY that are like a different country.) If you express any desire to leave town or go to college, you're "uppity" and will get the cold shoulder from everyone you know. Same phenomenon in the ghetto. Crabs in a barrel...

[Elizabeth]

I have seen a few episodes of this show. It's definitely shocking. I want to shake these women but I guess it's all they know. One woman did get a divorce due to domenstic violence and drinking, and it was unheard of. Can anyone tell me where they get all this money from for these weddings? It looks like the men don't have great jobs. I don't think they have steady jobs.

[marmar]

Jun 12, 2011 0:03:56 GMT -5 Elizabeth said:

Can anyone tell me where they get all this money from for these weddings? It looks like the men don't have great jobs. I don't think they have steady jobs.

The few I'm familiar with are all frauds and cons. They make a living by stealing from the elderly with their @#%$! home repair scams.

[zibazinski]

We used to get flyers on our doors that gypsies were coming thru town and to not even open the door to them because they'd keep you busy in front while the rest would go in your back and steal.

[happyscooter]

We paid for our children's college education. Younger son wanted to go out of state Sr year since his girlfriend was going there. I said 'no' or you can pay the difference. He stayed in state.

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2011 14:31:03 GMT -5 midjd said:

If you express any desire to leave town or go to college, you're "uppity" and will get the cold shoulder from everyone you know. Same phenomenon in the ghetto. Crabs in a barrel...

Not just the ghetto or Hazard, KY. My father wanted to go to college in the 1950s to study engineering. His father, who had worked in factories all his life, was uncomfortable with the idea. It was the tradition that when your son got out of HS, you proudly brought him to the plant to work. No one in the family had ever gone to college. It was his mother who went to work in a bar to help pay for it, and my maternal grandfather, who had started college but dropped out because he ran out of money, who supported the idea.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure what inspired the shows about gypsies lately but last night I saw a documentary about the gypsy kids stealing. In this one the kids were bold about stealing ATM cards, they looked like little hoods and the gypsy trailer parks were trashy. They all looked dirty. The Big Fat Gypsy Wedding show I saw made them look more flamboyant, less scuzzy.

[Frugal Nurse]

Jun 11, 2011 14:31:03 GMT -5 midjd said:

It's like the crabs-in-a-barrel analogy. Some people would rather pull (or keep) everyone else down than pull themselves up. Unfortunately this can even extend to your own children.

This isn't exactly the same, but I see a little of this phenomenon among DH's second cousins who live in Hazard (no offense to the good people of Kentucky, but there are areas of eastern KY that are like a different country.) If you express any desire to leave town or go to college, you're "uppity" and will get the cold shoulder from everyone you know. Same phenomenon in the ghetto. Crabs in a barrel...

YES! We always hear about lack of educational opportunities in eastern KY (and no, Eastern Kentucky University is NOT in the true Eastern KY), but building a lot of colleges that way would be pointless. The families and communities are close-knit and their beliefs go back generations. Thinking outside the box is forbidden. If a person were to go against the family's ways, they would be disowned. And one of the common beliefs down there is that education is pointless, because you can make more money in the coal mines anyway.

It is sad, and I'm so glad I don't come from that mentality. We get tons of patients from the small eastern kentucky towns that are killing themselves because they won't listen to what "them high-and-mighty doctors and nurses say". I actually had a heart disease patient last week tell me he had to chew tobacco now because those cigarettes were bad for his blood pressure and his Atrial-fibrillation. He refused to believe me when I tried to convince him that "dip" is just as bad!

[Frugal Nurse]

Jun 13, 2011 7:42:57 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I'm not sure what inspired the shows about gypsies lately but last night I saw a documentary about the gypsy kids stealing. In this one the kids were bold about stealing ATM cards, they looked like little hoods and the gypsy trailer parks were trashy. They all looked dirty. The Big Fat Gypsy Wedding show I saw made them look more flamboyant, less scuzzy.

When I was four we lived in central Florida on a lake, our backyard backed up to the fence of a Gypsy camp (well, that's what all of the adults called it anyway). It operated under the guise of a fishing camp, but mostly the gypsies would pull their trailers in, stay a few weeks, then move on. They were a very secretive group of people. We kids were told to stay away from the camp's fence. I remember making friends with a little girl in the camp, we would play through the fence (It was a chicken wire fence with big holes). Occasionally, her mom would help her sneak through the fence to come play in my house (well, it was a trailer, but anyway) or have lunch with us. She always had to sneak over, and her mom always seemed fearful that somebody would find out. And the girl always had to be home well before her father was due home, and she seemed so sad. I felt so bad for her.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure, but would guess that life expectancy for those groups is significantly lower than the general population? That likely contributes to the desire to have children younger. Not that i agree...

Did you happen to read National Geographic had an excellent story .... last month?... recently, about young brides in some cultures... heartbreaking, but informative...

[midjd]

Haha Frugalnurse, I love that kind of logic! One of DH's cousins swore up and down to me that her fried chicken was healthy because it was battered in cornflakes (before being dumped in Crisco).

I went to a college in that area that primarily catered to low-income Appalachian students, and even today there is about a 70% dropout rate among the white Appalachian men from freshman to senior year... they think mostly because of family pressure. I can't imagine being shunned by my family for pursuing education, but I also can't imagine spending my life in a coal mine...

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2011 7:42:57 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I'm not sure what inspired the shows about gypsies lately but last night I saw a documentary about the gypsy kids stealing. In this one the kids were bold about stealing ATM cards, they looked like little hoods and the gypsy trailer parks were trashy. They all looked dirty. The Big Fat Gypsy Wedding show I saw made them look more flamboyant, less scuzzy.

My husband tells a joke about Romania... Chauchescu and two other world leaders are flying in a plane. As the other two pass over their countries, they point out landmarks that let them know they are passing over their countries... Chasuchescu never even looks out the window, just say... ok, we're over Romania now... the others ask how he knew? and he said... my watch just disappeared...

[happyscooter]

Athena, remember the movie 'Rudy'?

[Frugal Nurse]

Jun 13, 2011 7:55:56 GMT -5 midjd said:

Haha Frugalnurse, I love that kind of logic! One of DH's cousins swore up and down to me that her fried chicken was healthy because it was battered in cornflakes (before being dumped in Crisco).

I went to a college in that area that primarily catered to low-income Appalachian students, and even today there is about a 70% dropout rate among the white Appalachian men from freshman to senior year... they think mostly because of family pressure. I can't imagine being shunned by my family for pursuing education, but I also can't imagine spending my life in a coal mine...

LOL. I think that the cornflake thing is supposed to be that you coat the chicken in corn flakes and bake it, so it crunches like fried but isn't greasy!

And it saddens me to talk to the young men, in their 20's, about working in the coal mines. They see money and a way to rise out of poverty, a way to support their wife and 6 kids. I see a future of work injuries and death in their 50's from black lung. sad, sad, sad.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2011 8:16:21 GMT -5 happyscooter said:

Athena, remember the movie 'Rudy'?

No- we're not big movie-watchers. Is it that same theme? I'm happy to say that my dad did make it through college and all 5 of us (one sister, 3 brothers) did, too. It was only a few years ago that he told us it was his mother's job in a bar that got it all rolling. Unfortunately, she'd died a few years before so I could never tell her what a wonderful thing she did.

[sheilaincali]

Can anyone tell me where they get all this money from for these weddings?

I was curious so I googled it. Apparently they buy and sell a good deal of scrap metal. They breed dogs for sale (one of the smaller breeds- can't remember which off the top of my head). And do construction work. Several of the grooms have referenced doing "Tree Trimming" as their occupation. In this last week's episode one groom wouldn't allow his face to be shown because he thought it would hurt his scrap metal business.

I was shocked by how the young girls dressed and danced. Very provocative to say the least. According to good old google- they have very high moral standards and are chaperoned when dating and engaged at all times. The chaperone's are apparently not paying attention when the girl gets grabbed and hauled off against her will by a prospective suitor

[bean29]

Jun 13, 2011 9:36:26 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Can anyone tell me where they get all this money from for these weddings?

I was curious so I googled it. Apparently they buy and sell a good deal of scrap metal. They breed dogs for sale (one of the smaller breeds- can't remember which off the top of my head). And do construction work. Several of the grooms have referenced doing "Tree Trimming" as their occupation. In this last week's episode one groom wouldn't allow his face to be shown because he thought it would hurt his scrap metal business.

I was shocked by how the young girls dressed and danced. Very provocative to say the least. According to good old google- they have very high moral standards and are chaperoned when dating and engaged at all times. The chaperone's are apparently not paying attention when the girl gets grabbed and hauled off against her will by a prospective suitor

How much you wanna bet the Scap Metal Business is a stealing scrap metal business. We had so much theft from our dumpster at work, we had to put a gate on the yard to keep people from stealing our scap. We got nearly $500.00 the last time we sold the scrap from the dumpster....