The idiocy and short sightedness of the far left

[formerexpat]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394945/The-green-killer-Scores-protected-golden-eagles-dying-colliding-wind-turbines.html

California's attempts to switch to green energy have inadvertently put the survival of the state’s golden eagles at risk.

Scores of the protected birds have been dying each year after colliding with the blades of about 5,000 wind turbines.

Now the drive for renewable power sources, such as wind and the sun, being promoted by President Obama and state Governor Jerry Brown has raised fears that the number of newborn golden eagles may not be able to keep pace with the number of turbine fatalities.

This is no secret and has been well known, researched and published in the science community.

But the left is hell bent on expensive, inefficient technology that also harms the wildlife in the areas that these turbines are built. Brilliant!

[Deleted]

SOLAR IS THE FUTURE!

[ed1066]

The left is the undisputed king (and queen) of unintended consequences...

[marshabar1]

The bird seems attracted to the windmill. Some of those blades are 130 feet long. I suppose a cage around the blades would be out of the question? Seems they could come up with a sound that would discourage the birds. But, oh my, the endless chain of unintended consequences.

[floridayankee]

Jun 7, 2011 11:53:03 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

But the left is hell bent on expensive, inefficient technology that also harms the wildlife in the areas that these turbines are built. Brilliant!

Since there is absolutely no way to presently generate electricity with zero environmental impact, I have to ask the environmentalists which one they choose. Wind turbines that may kill a few birds, a coal fired plant belching tons of Co2, a nuclear plant and the radiation hazards that go along with it, solar which requires vast tracts of open land and is, at best, 15% efficient (sroeco.com/solar/most-efficient-solar-panels ).

[Virgil Showlion]

Re #3: The bird really is dicing with death, isn't it?

They'll have to put in ultrasonic deterrents. ...which hopefully won't cause ground squirrels' heads to explode.

Expat, I'm not exactly "Mr. Left", but could your thread title be any more incendiary? I don't consider it "idiocy" to support nuclear power after the Fukushima disaster, and neither is it "idiocy" to support wind power in spite of its hazards.

If mankind knew everything, half of us would be out of a job.

is, at best, 15% efficient

Various groups have lab prototypes that approach the thermodynamic limit (somewhere around 40%), and various other proposals for generating multiple electron/hole pairs from a single photon (efficiency around 80%).

I couldn't tell you how close to actual implementation either technology is.

The big problems are battery efficiency and the energy costs of creating the photocells.

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2011 12:51:24 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Jun 7, 2011 11:54:07 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

SOLAR IS THE FUTURE!

I agree, but how long before we can get the panels (or whatever) at a price where it's practical?

It will take government subsidies but in a couple of decades large scale solar farms could be a reality and could be delivering energy at competitive prices.

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2011 12:57:49 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Jun 7, 2011 12:53:56 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

It will take government subsidies but in a couple of decades large scale solar farms could be a reality and could be delivering energy at competitive prices.

So, it's a matter of money, not whether or not we've the technology?

Yes. The technology is not there yet. It will most likely get there if the money is there. Of course, there is a chance that the ability to convert solar energy to usable energy is maxed out.

[floridayankee]

Jun 7, 2011 12:49:32 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Various groups have lab prototypes that approach the thermodynamic limit (somewhere around 40%), and various other proposals for generating multiple electron/hole pairs from a single photon (efficiency around 80%).

I couldn't tell you how close to actual implementation either technology is.

The big problems are battery efficiency and the energy costs of creating the photocells.

I've read that...they are getting better, but today's commercially available panels run the 10-15% efficiency range. Considering the cost of these panels, you'd really have to consider cost/benefit for panels in the 40% range. Them things will likely run you a few bucks more than today's panels sell for.

So, it's a matter of money, not whether or not we've the technology?

It's more a cost/benefit thing. The latest and greatest technology is always expensive and let's face it...green tech is still in it's infancy. Cheaper alternatives, dollar wise, are available in the form of oil, coal and natural gas. The problem is the environmental costs that are paid on a global scale Nobody wants pollution, but nobody really wants to double the cost of their electricity either.

[hello fromWarsaw]

The Daily Mail is a RW spin rag. And those findings are controversial to say the least. More gloom and doom BS from the savage lyin' and cheatin' and pollutin' capitalists...

[formerexpat]

Expat, I'm not exactly "Mr. Left", but could your thread title be any more incendiary? I don't consider it "idiocy" to support nuclear power after the Fukushima disaster, and neither is it "idiocy" to support wind power in spite of its hazards.

I don't see idiocy in supporting nuclear power; nor do I see it an idea of the far left - I see many anti nuclear activists that are the far left. I support nuclear power.

Wind technology not so much. It's too tough to get the energy created to where it's needed and very costly to maintain. The birds being killed by the propellers is only part of the story of the impact it has on wildlife. Similar to deforestation, it impacts the animals whose natural habitat used to be where the new turbines are now located.

After seeing the number of non functional turbines during our train trips across Europe, any remaining support that I may have had for them was eliminated.

I like solar, but my understanding of that is that it too is costly and/or inefficient to get from storage to where it is used. Unless you've got the panels close to your home and you're going to keep that home for more than 15-20 years, I understand that it isn't worth it...or rather is too costly than other alternatives.

[txbo]

I believe in the development and research of all possible sources of energy present and future. Millions of birds die everyday some consumed by birds of prey some by windmills.

[floridayankee]

Jun 7, 2011 13:39:30 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

Similar to deforestation, it impacts the animals whose natural habitat used to be where the new turbines are now located.

Meadow Lake wind farm along I-65 in Indiana is almost entirely built on farmland where the habitat was long ago ruined for the animals by farmers. This wind farm has a 500MW capacity through it's first 4 phases according to wiki.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I believe in the development and research of all possible sources of energy present and future. Millions of birds die everyday some consumed by birds of prey some by windmills.

And many by planes.

[ed1066]

Jun 7, 2011 14:13:54 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

I believe in the development and research of all possible sources of energy present and future. Millions of birds die everyday some consumed by birds of prey some by windmills.

And many by planes.

And I eat some of them, too...

[floridayankee]

Jun 7, 2011 13:39:30 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

I like solar, but my understanding of that is that it too is costly and/or inefficient to get from storage to where it is used. Unless you've got the panels close to your home and you're going to keep that home for more than 15-20 years, I understand that it isn't worth it...or rather is too costly than other alternatives.

Cost and efficiency are two huge setbacks. Another is aesthetics. For home solar, you used to have to install roof brackets and panels the size of pool tables to generate any meaningful level of electricity. These days, not so much...if you can afford it, the options are improving.

Still a bit too far off from looking like real shingles but they're getting closer.

[hello fromWarsaw]

We've got 300 four hundred foot+ turbines within 15 miles of here, and nobody saw ANY of these horrible things happen, and they all work. Saved a LOT of small farmers...

[formerexpat]

The Daily Mail is a RW spin rag. And those findings are controversial to say the least. More gloom and doom BS from the savage lyin' and cheatin' and pollutin' capitalists...

I knew the far left would show up, idiocy in hand.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Every major wind turnbine project on the east coast has been fought tooth and nail, by very organized and connected left wing group and tied up in courts for years and years, resulting in the project being withdrawn.

Just recently, last few months, the electric company in northern NJ, PSE&G, started installing solar panels on telephone poles. Residents and activist groups went ape-shit.

[hello fromWarsaw]

The far left in the USA is anyone who disagrees with you, I guess. This issue seems to be above all the stupid fear mongered labels...

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The far left in the USA is anyone who disagrees with you, I guess. This issue seems to be above all the stupid fear mongered labels...

The far left are the extremist radicals, not the traditional democratic party.

[formerexpat]

The far left in the USA is anyone who disagrees with you, I guess. This issue seems to be above all the stupid fear mongered labels...

www.windturbinesyndrome.com/img/WTSguide.pdf

Seems like you've got a bit of reading up on the issue to do. Move closer to the turbines, see how much you love them then.

Do some research on what the scientific community has to say about it; not the developers & politicians that, **gasp**, profit from wind energy.

[hello fromWarsaw]

You're the expert- you saw some in Europe LOL!!!

[cme1201]

I could never live near wind turbines, the whoosh-whoosh-whoosh of the blades cutting the air would never allow me to get past a migraine.

[hello fromWarsaw]

I TALKED to people who live right under them. No problems but the view...

[floridayankee]

Jun 7, 2011 14:50:53 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

Seems like you've got a bit of reading up on the issue to do. Move closer to the turbines, see how much you love them then.

Do some research on what the scientific community has to say about it; not the developers & politicians that, **gasp**, profit from wind energy.

Never heard of WTS. Browsed a few pages, but I'll have to read more about it when I get some time. I find it hard to believe that millions can live in a noise polluted city like New York just fine, but people are getting sick from the noise generated from a wind turbine. Still skeptical for now expat.

[hello fromWarsaw]

You have to get pretty darn close to hear them, much closer than the residencial limits- I'm glad I can't see them but $10k a year for each one would help

[thyme4change]

I believe the far left and the far right are equally as closed minded and idiotic.

[cme1201]

Jun 7, 2011 15:09:08 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I believe the far left and the far right are equally as closed minded and idiotic.

[Opti]

Jun 7, 2011 14:33:51 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

Every major wind turnbine project on the east coast has been fought tooth and nail, by very organized and connected left wing group and tied up in courts for years and years, resulting in the project being withdrawn.

Just recently, last few months, the electric company in northern NJ, PSE&G, started installing solar panels on telephone poles. Residents and activist groups went ape-shit.

The solar panels on telephone poles have been up by me for awhile,
maybe last year in the summer? If there were complaints by residents, etc. here I missed it.

I'm surprised anyone would want to put wind farms on the East Coast. My reading on the subject suggests that parts of the West and South are the best sites and perhaps a few in the upper Midwest weren't too bad. My understanding is the east coast really doesn't
have the sustained winds to make wind farms practical and cost effective.