Atheists vs. American Legion

[Deleted]

www.theblaze.com/stories/atheists-vs-american-legion-the-legality-of-utahs-highway-crosses/

ATHEISTS VS. AMERICAN LEGION: THE LEGALITY OF UTAH’S HIGHWAY CROSSES
Posted on May 27, 2011 at 11:43pm


Atheists continue to rail against the presence of 13 crosses on Utah’s public highways. While the legal debate between the Utah Highway Patrol and its supporters and American Atheists (the organization staunchly opposed to the crosses) has gone back and forth for some time now, a 2010 ruling declared the religious symbols “unconstitutional.” But, the debate is far from over.

Just days before the United States celebrates Memorial Day, the American Legion has announced its plans to enter into the debate in support of the crosses. For history’s sake, these markers were constructed in 1998 to memorialize fallen Utah Highway Patrol staff (marking the spots where they had perished). According to Yahoo! News:

Atheist and humanist organizations have taken the crosses to court as a violation of separation of church and state because, even though they’re privately funded, they are on public property. The case is called American Atheists v. Davenport.
At first, a federal judge overturned a district court ruling against the crosses. But last August, the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed that decision and agreed with the district court that the crosses represent an “unconstitutional government endorsement” of the Christian faith above other beliefs.
The court’s decision was largely based on the fact that these crosses are many times larger than normal roadside cross-shaped death markers.
An American Atheists blog responding to attacks as to why they hated crosses called the memorial monuments “highly offensive,” and that for crosses to represent troopers who could possibly be of another faith or no faith is insulting.
But according to a Christian Science Monitor article, the families of each fallen Utah trooper were consulted before the erection of the crosses and no one objected. A photo of each trooper is also used at the site.
The fact that none of the families had objections is compelling. The American Legion hopes that the U.S. Supreme Court will hear this contentious case and make a final determination. Below, see commentary on the matter from Rev. Dr. Myke Crowder and Rev. Rob Schenck from the National Clergy Council and Faith in Action:

[Deleted]

WHY do atheists care about this? As pointed out, this is Mormon land, but not a Mormon thing, as Mormons do not use crosses. NONE of the families of the dead troopers objected to their memories being honored in this way.

This would NEVER work in AZ. Hispanics mark death spots with not only crosses, but shrines, pics, flowers, candles, Virgin Mary stuff, and it lasts a long, long time. No one cares. They are all over town. AND a good reminder to all of many different ways to die..

[deziloooooo]

I have no objection to the crosses. I understand that the State is over whelming Mormon, or I believe it is, just one of those things one picks up and assumes.

I would think if any of the fallen being memorialized where Mormon , isn't there a symbol for Mormonism, or , and I know so little about the faith, isn't Jesus , his crucification , also a important part of the faith. Thus the cross would be appropriate.

I do know if I or one of mine was so unfortunate, while I would be honored to have them or I remembered so, I would NOT want a cross put up. Being Jewish a Star of David fine..or a plain monument but definitely not a cross, it just does not sing for me, being honest with you. It is in no way a part of my being, my faith, just the way it is. All respect toward those of the faith but when you get into the personals , just not here.

I take it, and probably there are, the fallen ,some must be Mormon, and if Jesus, the crucification is a part of their faith, I guess they are comfortable with it. So be it.

[deziloooooo]

May 28, 2011 13:23:22 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

WHY do atheists care about this? As pointed out, this is Mormon land, but not a Mormon thing, as Mormons do not use crosses. NONE of the families of the dead troopers objected to their memories being honored in this way.

This would NEVER work in AZ. Hispanics mark death spots with not only crosses, but shrines, pics, flowers, candles, Virgin Mary stuff, and it lasts a long, long time. No one cares. They are all over town. AND a good reminder to all of many different ways to die..

They are bigones aren't they...in a way, I can see what they are saying , but still........

[txbo]

As an atheists let me tell you how I feel about this.
1. Its Utah so I really don’t care.
2. The crosses are big and ugly, one cross with small individual bronze plaques or no cross would have been a better choice plus pullover parking.
3. Yes, many people will place SMALL memorial crosses or markers at the place someone was killed. The highway department will remove them after some time has past.
4. All the big crosses are in one place and not at the place the trooper lost his/her life.
5. It’s another gatcha play by a religious organization pushing an agenda.
6. If near my house it would reduce the value and my chainsaw would see some action.

[txbo]

Thankfully, I live in a very religious conservative upscale community that would never let anything like this happen that interferes with our property values.

[Deleted]

I like the idea of people honoring their dead this way, tough. It is very humbling, somehow, and makes you glad to be breathing. In the case of these troopers it is a matter of respect, no more, no less. People are weird. Did a trooper family complain?? I would imagine there may be some Mormons in there, that do not use crosses in their faith. But, who would turn down a gesture of respect like that? Who does that?
I'm not Catholic, and the shrines by the road do not bother me at all. I kind of like them, and if the people that maintain them and keep their candles lit get comfort from them-- good for them and God bless. There but for the grace of God go I , and I check my speedometer, too.

[Deleted]

Most people do not have FREEWAYS in their neighborhoods... just saying.....

[deziloooooo]

May 28, 2011 18:57:34 GMT -5 txbo said:

As an atheists let me tell you how I feel about this.
1. Its Utah so I really don’t care.
2. The crosses are big and ugly, one cross with small individual bronze plaques or no cross would have been a better choice plus pullover parking.
3. Yes, many people will place SMALL memorial crosses or markers at the place someone was killed. The highway department will remove them after some time has past.
4. All the big crosses are in one place and not at the place the trooper lost his/her life.
5. It’s another gatcha play by a religious organization pushing an agenda.
6. If near my house it would reduce the value and my chainsaw would see some action.

The first year I was married back in the far away day, we lived in Waterbury, Ct..a old factory town, "Brass City "..and back in the 50's a man owned this large hill and he put up a miniature Bethlehem , Jerusalem, made it himself , 1/4 size replica of the area his idea of the way it was. Use to get 40,000 visitors a year during the hey day. Also a 50 ' Cross, lite, called "Holy Land, right at the apex of the very high hill. It is all deteriorated know, left to a cloister of Nuns, but can't keep it up so going to seed, just replaced the cross, not as large, or lite, but when I lived there it was at the top of the hill, you could see it for miles, two major roads in Ct6 ran right by, it was over powering.

The City is predominately Catholic, mill town, but there are all types living there, I know a good size Jewish Community is in the area, and when I lived there, in a way a bit much..but hey, go with the flow , but to say those who are not of the faith are NOT some what at times occasionally a bit uncomfortable a bit, you betcha. Hey 50 foot , lite up like a beacon...I know all about Brazil, believe Buenes Aries..100 foot Jesus with out stretched arms...that is Buenes Aires...

[Deleted]

Here in AZ there was a horrible wreck-- 6 kids on Prom night. One girl lived. I knew the driver and worked with his Mom. There is a huge monument there-- maintained for 7 or 8 years now. Don't know who the property belongs to, but no one messes with the spot at all. I would imagine lots of HS kids slow down when they make that curve. Who knows? Maybe it saves lives. EVERYONE in the area knows what it stands for-- drunk kids on Prom night...

[Deleted]

We have the bikes, too. They plant the tires in the ground-- the real bikes painted white, with the story on them. If that doesn't make you look right before you turn, as WELL as make you look on your bike before you do ANYTHING, not sure what would. SEVERAL in the university area.

[handyman2]

Don't the Athiests have bigger fish to fry than worry about a cross. next they will want to remove all the crosses in Arlington cemetary. That will get some violent action against athiests.
By the way the cross was introduced by ancient pagan rituals long before being adopted by religious groups

[Deleted]

Maybe someone should tell the atheists that, or do they hate pagans, also?

[deziloooooo]

May 28, 2011 21:20:45 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

Don't the Athiests have bigger fish to fry than worry about a cross. next they will want to remove all the crosses in Arlington cemetary. That will get some violent action against athiests.
By the way the cross was introduced by ancient pagan rituals long before being adopted by religious groups

Your missing it...the over sized crosses..they are, some feel being proselytized [ Is thast the correct word?}in a way. Here I guess they are in a memorial Grove , am I correct, so more understanding but if interspersed along the high way, I could see why some might be uncomfortable.

It's nice to think of others some times which seems to be lost art here on these boards by some, understand the other guys feelings, concerns.

[Deleted]

Someone traveling the freeway is going to be offended by crosses representing cops that have lost their lives?? Give me a flippin' break. Those crosses to the dead warriors HURT them somehow? Infringe on their rights to not see crosses??? I'm betting they would not hesitate to call those cops if their home was being broken in to while they slept. Should they check the cops at the door to make sure they are not wearing crosses or St. Christopher medals before they let them save them??

[deziloooooo]

May 28, 2011 21:37:01 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

Someone traveling the freeway is going to be offended by crosses representing cops that have lost their lives?? Give me a flippin' break. Those crosses to the dead warriors HURT them somehow? Infringe on their rights to not see crosses??? I'm betting they would not hesitate to call those cops if their home was being broken in to while they slept. Should they check the cops at the door to make sure they are not wearing crosses or St. Christopher medals before they let them save them??

If there are over size crosses, and not knowing why they are there, yes kricket , I could see some being uncomfortable with seeing them.

If they knew the story about why they are there, then that is a dfifferent story, much less uncomfortability, if uncomfortable at all.

You sure love to carry on Krickett, you surly do.

[mmhmm]

I've got no problem with crosses being placed in this manner. I think it's a wonderful way to honor someone lost, if that's your belief. I think my only objection to these particular crosses would be their size and the fact they're bunched together. To that, were it in my neighborhood, I would definitely object strenuously.

[txbo]

May 28, 2011 21:20:45 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

Don't the Athiests have bigger fish to fry than worry about a cross. next they will want to remove all the crosses in Arlington cemetary. That will get some violent action against athiests.
By the way the cross was introduced by ancient pagan rituals long before being adopted by religious groups

Poor example, Arlington is the resting place for fallen warriors no one would ever want to remove crosses. A highway in Utah is an add for some religious group no one is inurned there.

One cross would be just as good as 13 or is it more religious with more and bigger the crosses.

[cereb]

May 28, 2011 18:57:34 GMT -5 txbo said:

As an atheists let me tell you how I feel about this.
1. Its Utah so I really don’t care.
2. The crosses are big and ugly, one cross with small individual bronze plaques or no cross would have been a better choice plus pullover parking.
3. Yes, many people will place SMALL memorial crosses or markers at the place someone was killed. The highway department will remove them after some time has past.
4. All the big crosses are in one place and not at the place the trooper lost his/her life.
5. It’s another gatcha play by a religious organization pushing an agenda.
6. If near my house it would reduce the value and my chainsaw would see some action.

[cereb]

May 28, 2011 21:37:01 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

Someone traveling the freeway is going to be offended by crosses representing cops that have lost their lives?? Give me a flippin' break. Those crosses to the dead warriors HURT them somehow? Infringe on their rights to not see crosses??? I'm betting they would not hesitate to call those cops if their home was being broken in to while they slept. Should they check the cops at the door to make sure they are not wearing crosses or St. Christopher medals before they let them save them??

A tad hysterical don't you think? A protest about huge white crosses on a publicly funded highway does not equate to hatred of Christianity.

[privateinvestor]

Do Atheist have the same issues with the Star of David or the Crescent Moon sings we often see along the highways or streets.. or is it just crosses??

[cereb]

May 29, 2011 1:22:38 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

Do Atheist have the same issues with the Star of David or the Crescent Moon sings we often see along the highways or streets.. or is it just crosses??

Honestly, I have never seen the Star of David or Crescents on the side of a publicly funded highway. But, If they were there as a permanent structure and as large as the crosses in Utah, I suspect it would most definitely be an issue.There is a particularly deadly stretch of highway near where I live and I travel it most days. I have only seen the small crosses which typically family members place at the site where there loved one died. I really don't have a problem with those at all. Most are removed after a year or so, and the are not 7 feet tall and permanent.

[cereb]

Well heck... now that I look at the picture again, the crosses are certainly way taller than 7 feet.

[privateinvestor]

May 29, 2011 1:29:58 GMT -5 cereb said:

May 29, 2011 1:22:38 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

Do Atheist have the same issues with the Star of David or the Crescent Moon sings we often see along the highways or streets.. or is it just crosses??

Honestly, I have never seen the Star of David or Crescents on the side of a publicly funded highway. But, If they were there as a permanent structure and as large as the crosses in Utah, I suspect it would most definitely be an issue.There is a particularly deadly stretch of highway near where I live and I travel it most days. I have only seen the small crosses which typically family members place at the site where there loved one died. I really don't have a problem with those at all. Most are removed after a year or so, and the are not 7 feet tall and permanent.

I have seen some Star of David and Crescent Moon signs posted on highways when I drove across country on route 40 from CA to MA...and some are light up at night or flashing as well.....but again do the Atheist have issues with them or is there a bit of a double standard aimed at just Christains and not to the Jewish or Muslim Faith???

[deziloooooo]

May 29, 2011 1:37:34 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

May 29, 2011 1:29:58 GMT -5 cereb said:

Honestly, I have never seen the Star of David or Crescents on the side of a publicly funded highway. But, If they were there as a permanent structure and as large as the crosses in Utah, I suspect it would most definitely be an issue.There is a particularly deadly stretch of highway near where I live and I travel it most days. I have only seen the small crosses which typically family members place at the site where there loved one died. I really don't have a problem with those at all. Most are removed after a year or so, and the are not 7 feet tall and permanent.

I have seen some Star of Davids and Crescent Moon signs posted on highways when I drove across country on route 40 from CA to MA...and some are light up at night or flashing as well.....but again do the Atheist have issues with them or is there a bit of a double standard aimed at just Christains and not to the Jewish or Muslim Faith???

Star of David along the road, as memiorials to lost ones killed in auto accidents? Must be new idea, I have heard of assimilation and I guess it's true, and they are li up too.
If some wouldn't take it opersonally I could have fun with that one,.
but if true, I would suggest , a bit of to much already, some one needs to be slapped silly. IMHO of course.

[lakhota]

but again do the Atheist have issues with them or is there a bit of a double standard aimed at just Christains and not to the Jewish or Muslim Faith???

Christians are the biggest pain in the ass to Atheists due to trying to influence politics and stuffing their religious bullshit in public places. The other religions haven't yet reached that level of disdain with Atheists, IMO...

[cereb]

May 29, 2011 1:37:34 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

May 29, 2011 1:29:58 GMT -5 cereb said:

Honestly, I have never seen the Star of David or Crescents on the side of a publicly funded highway. But, If they were there as a permanent structure and as large as the crosses in Utah, I suspect it would most definitely be an issue.There is a particularly deadly stretch of highway near where I live and I travel it most days. I have only seen the small crosses which typically family members place at the site where there loved one died. I really don't have a problem with those at all. Most are removed after a year or so, and the are not 7 feet tall and permanent.

I have seen some Star of Davids and Crescent Moon signs posted on highways when I drove across country on route 40 from CA to MA...and some are light up at night or flashing as well.....but again do the Atheist have issues with them or is there a bit of a double standard aimed at just Christains and not to the Jewish or Muslim Faith???

I can only answer for myself. I personally do not have an issue with the cross, the star of David or the Crescent. I don't have a problem with anyone making their own choices about religion or the practice there of. However, when certain groups attempt to push the boundaries of the separation of church and state, I feel somewhat compelled to take issue with it. If I live across the street from a public park which town taxes support, and I pay those taxes, I would expect to never wake up one morning to see a 12 foot cross, Crescent, Star of David or a statue of Buddha as I leave my front door to view the park. Now, if I should live across the street from a church, they have the right to display anything they so desire within the limits of any town ordinance that may exist.


That being said, it is typically Christian groups who push those boundaries and simply cannot accept that it's a simple boundary violation and not Christian bashing.

[cereb]

I would like to add also, it is typically Christians who attempt to jam their religious views into politics and public places. Boundaries seem to be a problem.

[privateinvestor]

May 29, 2011 1:54:11 GMT -5 cereb said:

I would like to add also, it is typically Christians who attempt to jam their religious views into politics and public places. Boundaries seem to be a problem.

You could make the same comment about Muslims lately as well unless you don't watch TV or read the news..

Here's one FYI.....Media coverage of Chicago Muslim response to the death of Osama bin Laden

Check it out..

[cereb]

May 29, 2011 1:57:34 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

May 29, 2011 1:54:11 GMT -5 cereb said:

I would like to add also, it is typically Christians who attempt to jam their religious views into politics and public places. Boundaries seem to be a problem.

You could make the same comment about Muslims lately as well unless you don't watch TV or read the news..

Here's one FYI.....Media coverage of Chicago Muslim response to the death of Osama bin Laden


Possibly. But it isn't nearly as wide spread as what the Christian stuff. I think the Muslim issues get a ton of press and therefore seems like it's common and widespread. Most folks are just numb to the Christian stuff, and frankly, it just doesn't create the fear and headlines that the Muslim issues do.

Check it out..