NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2011 9:57:25 GMT -5
was living on less than $17,580 and so were a lot of my neighbors. It wasn't fun, but nobody was holding me up as a shining example of being frugal either.
I think it is because this story has some romance to it and makes for a good story more so than the rest of us folks doing the same thing.
I "have" to do it, DH and I do not make a lot. Her and her husband CHOOSE to give it all up. Whereas I am "surviving", her story is that they willfully turned their backs on consumer culture in order to live their lives better.
Picking apart the story is forbidden.
I still say that if I had come on here wanting to do the same thing YM-ers would have skinned me alive.
I am glad they succeeded and it is impressive, but I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that was a pretty major risk they took with six kids in tow. Yes they planned but as we all know murphy doesn't always care that you had a "plan".
I don't see why we are wrong to say that is a risk that most families would not and probably should not take on.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 19, 2011 10:55:58 GMT -5
In the last census the median household income in their area was about $38,000/year, their income was probably about $30,000/year(inflation adjusted), with money set aside for college expenses. Would his pension be inflation-adjusted & would he be bringing home $30k/yr now? At best it is probably about 23K today. What are today's standards then for "minimal" care for providing for children? I kind of like Firebirds list. I don't think this family did anything significantly wrong, but I would say that I think feeding your kids expired food doesn't meet todays minimum standards, nor does homemade baby formula. For some foods the expiration is just a matter of the food going stale, but for others there are good reasons why there are expiration dates & it isn't always something you can see or taste.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 11:02:13 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago about expiration dates? I seem to recall stockpilers saying tney didn't worry too much about them.
I HAVE purchased meat on the pull date because it was extremely marked down and I can freeze it. I've also used some foods past the exp date as long as they pass my sniff test. And I've purchased bread etc from the returned bakery store. And I've scraped mold off of hard cheese and used it (the cheese). So I guess what they did was take it a step further.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2011 11:07:54 GMT -5
I considered buying meat on the pull date once at Wal-mart, but when I looked in the bin you could see pink juice from leakers and the bin was NASTY. Plus they weren't very well refridgerated. Wasn't worth it when all those all things were added in, who knows if some of that was contaminated or not. Not worth saving a buck. I did snag a really nice chuck roast from Hy-Vee that was at its pull date though. It was a clean sealed package in a nice clean bin, I took it home and froze it. Bot scenarios could save me money, but the meat at Wal-mart required more risk tolerance than I can tolerate. I didn't really see many people paying attention to anything but the price though as they stocked their carts. Blech, all that leaking meat on top of your vegetables? ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/52_52.gif)
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 12:05:33 GMT -5
Dq I totally agree. I'd never buy unrefrigerated meat. That bin sounds disgusting.
At home, as much as I hate wadting food, I WILL throw out anything that is questionable.
More recently, I've gotten good buys (marked down 75%) on bag salad -on the pull date. We ate it within a day or two.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2011 12:30:12 GMT -5
But it was 10 for a $1! ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) It was BAD. I mean technically the meat was perfectly fine to sell but I know my DH would have had a shit fit if I brought home leaking dirty meat. He is a QA for a meat packing plant. I HATE going grocery shopping with him because I have to wait as he examines every package of bacon before selecting one to put in the cart to make sure it is meets his standards. ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/8.gif)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 19, 2011 12:30:56 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago about expiration dates? I seem to recall stockpilers saying tney didn't worry too much about them. I'm sure there was, and I'm sure some of the more frugal folks don't worry about expiration dates. I'd tell them they're doing their kids a disservice by feeding them questionable food too. Buying some steaks on the sell by date and cooking them within a day or two is one thing. Buying cereal that's a full year past the sell by date though? Disgusting. You know the plants these foods are packaged in aren't clean rooms right? They have a certain amount of bacteria and stuff from the day they're packaged. That stuff is multiplying and growing on the food from the day it's packaged. Refrigerated items have that growth retarded a little by the cold, but it's still happening. The longer that food sits the more bacterial growth, mold, and potentially bug larvae you're going to be eating when you finally consume the stuff. If you're really so hard up that you're forced to raise kids on less than minimum wage, well you gotta do what you gotta do. However, if you make a decent salary but choose to feed your kids stuff that should be in the garbage don't expect me to applaud you for it. Some of the other posters here apparently will, I'm just not one of them.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 19, 2011 12:51:25 GMT -5
I don't think Amy fed her family very much food from the salvage store. Did you read the article that the OP linked? Take a recent grocery run by designated food shopper Jim, who embraces frugality as wholeheartedly as his strongminded wife... Get that part? Jim is the designated food shopper, not Amy. Jim's favorite stop, though, is Caswell's Liquidation Center, a repository for food items no longer ready for grocery prime time. In this dimly lit warehouse-style emporium reside dented cans, cornflakes whose packages are printed in Arabic and food that has passed its "sell by" date. See where I'm going here? He does the grocery shopping, and his favorite store is the expired food emporium. "People are confused about those dates," insists Amy. "Often the date means only when the food is at the peak of quality. It doesn't go bad on that date." That's totally true, I'm not arguing that. Using stuff a little that's a little beyond its peak is fine. Recent Caswell hauls: mozzarella cheese two months past its sell date for $1.09 a pound, Grape-Nuts one year past their peak for 99[cents] for a one-pound box and half-gallons of ice cream with no date at all for $1. Whoa, hold the damn phone. Two months past its peak is a pretty long time for cheese. Fresh cheese will start growing mold in under two months and that's if it's kept in the refrigerator. The year old cereal probably has weevils in it at this point. The undated ice cream... at least it's frozen. Not much grows on frozen food.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2011 12:53:54 GMT -5
The year old cereal probably has weevils in it at this pointDoubt it, everyone knows Grape Nuts are actually little rocks marketed as cereal. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 19, 2011 12:56:08 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago about expiration dates? I seem to recall stockpilers saying tney didn't worry too much about them. I HAVE purchased meat on the pull date because it was extremely marked down and I can freeze it. I've also used some foods past the exp date as long as they pass my sniff test. And I've purchased bread etc from the returned bakery store. And I've scraped mold off of hard cheese and used it (the cheese). So I guess what they did was take it a step further. gardeninggrandma: That is an awesome way to get meats at a reduced rate. I have done the same thing and as long as the meat still looks red and fresh and the package is not leaking, it ought to be perfectly fine if cooked or frozen on the date of expiration. I was recently able to make a killing on some beef. I was able to combine a $2/1 any Rancher's Reserve beef coupon (Safeway brand) with some freezer burn resistant packaged beef fillet (think of how corned beef is packaged) that I knew was coming up on its last date of sale and would be marked down 50%. I went back on that date and was able to score (9) packages that day and (6) packages a couple of weeks later for 50% off + an addition $2 off on each package because I had coupons and was paying attention. What I did, did not take a whole lot of time and I bought over $100 worth of beef fillet for around $30. Best of all is the packaging, because I know it will have a long freezer life.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 19, 2011 13:00:01 GMT -5
Doubt it, everyone knows Grape Nuts are actually little rocks marketed as cereal. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I know you aren't dissin my Grape Nuts! Sure, they aren't quite as good as Marshmallow Mateys, but they're about as close as you can get.
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 19, 2011 13:04:38 GMT -5
Gg: I buy produce that is close to its sell by date too (my fav grocery store marks it to 60% off 3 days before that date). I bring it home, rinse and dry ir, then put it in Debby Myers green bags. It will stay fresh for two extra weeks in those things!
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 19, 2011 13:16:33 GMT -5
DH, where did you ever learn food safety? Meat, by it's very nature, is more dangerous on the first day that it goes on sale than cereal a year past its sell date. Meat is wet, full of protein and the potential for being contaminated with what you find inside of cows definitely exists. Dry cereal has much less protein and usually contains enough sugar or salt to significantly retard bacterial growth.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 19, 2011 13:23:58 GMT -5
DH, where did you ever learn food safety? I worked in restaurants as a teen. The food had use by not sell by dates, and we threw it out after those dates. Was it still edible after those dates? Probably. Did it have a higher potential to make people sick? Probably. One of the restaurants I worked in had a buffet, so we had slightly different rules since we would re-use leftovers. Those could be kept up to five days as long as they were stored in the walk in. Meat, by it's very nature, is more dangerous on the first day that it goes on sale than cereal a year past its sell date. Meat is wet, full of protein and the potential for being contaminated with what you find inside of cows definitely exists. Dry cereal has much less protein and usually contains enough sugar or salt to significantly retard bacterial growth. I totally agree with you, and if the article had mentioned them buying meat a month after it's sell by date I would be more disgusted with that than anything the article did mention. It didn't say anything about meat though, so the most potentially petri dish sounding food they bought was the two month old cheese.
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Post by bobbysgirl on May 19, 2011 21:02:07 GMT -5
What are today's standards then for "minimal" care for providing for children?My own opinion: -Healthy, consistent diet -Emotionally and physically safe housing -Reliable transportation -The best healthcare you can afford (this would include major dental work - JMO) -At least one sober, healthy, reliable, consistent parent -Education through a high school diploma - and in this day and age, I would say this includes regular access to computer with Internet (a TV is not necessary, though) -Sufficient financial resources to provide all of the above without major help from outside sources (or at least a solid plan to one day have sufficient financial resources to provide all of the above without major help from outside sources). I have very little respect for parents who fail to provide any of the above. Those are personal requirements. I agree with them, but the law says. Shelter Clothing, can be bright pink sweats or parent's choice Food
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Post by bobbysgirl on May 19, 2011 21:05:00 GMT -5
The only dangerous mold that I am aware of is aflaxtoxin There is no way in hell I would eat moldy marshmallows that were thrown in a bin of powdered cocoa. That contaminates the entire container of cocoa with mold spores. www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/molds_on_food/ There is no indication that anyone in this family ate moldy marshmallows. They were 5 months old. On the extreme couponing thread a poster is bragging about buying candy with coupons that she plans to give trick or treaters 5 months from now. She's getting "attagirls" from some of the same people who are deriding the Dacyzcns. GG I read it as she bought the candy and gave it out at Halloween, (last year) Maybe I'm wrong.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 19, 2011 22:15:51 GMT -5
There is no indication that anyone in this family ate moldy marshmallows. They were 5 months old. On the extreme couponing thread a poster is bragging about buying candy with coupons that she plans to give trick or treaters 5 months from now. She's getting "attagirls" from some of the same people who are deriding the Dacyzcns. GG I read it as she bought the candy and gave it out at Halloween, (last year) Maybe I'm wrong. I'm referring to post #255.... It sounded recent. She said the candy was going into a drawer (not the freezer) for Trick or Treaters.... If it was the freezer' I'd have assumed that she had more will power than me. But the drawer? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 23:00:44 GMT -5
I've been thinking and thinking about this thread. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I'm totally torn. On one hand I think it's terrible to choose poverty, especially for your children, like DQ said. On the other hand I'm completely amazed at their partnership and willingness to sacrifice to spend as much time at home.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 20, 2011 7:28:54 GMT -5
When it all comes down to it, she and her family will be doing a lot better than many high-income professionals a paycheck away from the street. More and more of our job base is eroding and many formerly six-figure earners are shopping for cars to live in (hyperbole, but not much). In the meantime, they have developed a brand, can resurrect the newsletters at any time, can write a new book or re-package the old ones. They are still in the news and can probably parlay that into a realty show if they so desired. If anything, their integrity has hurt them. Look at Suzie Orman who blasts various financial products in her books and then becomes a pitchman for them. If Amy D and Husband were willing to be sellouts, they would be very rich tightwads. In addition, their children. are probably very well equiped to survive whatever life throws at them. They have college educations, they know how to delay. gratification, and they have had role models on how to manage on little. If you read the TG, there is a lot about enjoying life without a lot of material things.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 20, 2011 8:04:42 GMT -5
There are ways to teach your kids not to be materalistic and to handle life without having to go to the extremes they did. I'm sorry but I don't agree with living like they did and I don't want to. Doesn't mean I am going to hand DD everything she wants on a silver platter. But I think there is a way I can save for her college AND afford a pair of new shoes for her, that hardly makes me a spendthrift raising an entitled brat.
They did a lot of positive things, but I am not going to put them on a pedestal because like several other posters said LOTS of families have done and are doing what they do to pinch pennies, but they don't get hte accolades because they aren't promoting themselves as paragons of frugality and the anti-thesis of consumer culture.
They just figured out how to make money off of what other families are doing.
It's impressive that they paid for their house and kids' college on $17k, but I don't see where I have to throw them a parade for doing what every person on YM would tell someone to do on that type of income.
Plus it does kinda rub me the wrong way that she promotes they did it based on their frugal ways. Umm. .. no you did not. You did it with free health care, a pension AND your book deals.
Sure it wouldn't have happened at all without the penny pinching on top, but it sounds like they also "made more money" on top of the penny pinching.
Was it a lot more? I don't know, but it sure wasn't just living off his pension and making it all happen by buying salvage foods once her book deal kicked in.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 20, 2011 11:31:25 GMT -5
Those are personal requirements. I agree with them, but the law says.
Shelter Clothing, can be bright pink sweats or parent's choice Food
I know that. You can't legislate good or even adequate parenting, unfortunately. The above is grossly insufficient in my opinion.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 20, 2011 11:34:30 GMT -5
Plus it does kinda rub me the wrong way that she promotes they did it based on their frugal ways. Umm. .. no you did not. You did it with free health care, a pension AND your book deals.
Yeah. I'd be more impressed if this was a case where (for example) the primary wage earner became disabled and it didn't make sense for the SAHS to go to work for some reason and they had to suddenly figure out how to make things work on $20k a year disability income, and they were able to make it work by doing these frugal things.
But with all the assistance they got, well no shit they were able to do it but the frugal things weren't the reason. I could have done it too, and so could most of the other YMers.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 20, 2011 12:52:03 GMT -5
But with all the assistance they got
"Assistance"??
The healthcare coverage was a pension benefit. It's not like they were on Medicaid.
The income from the newsletter was the result of a home based business.
His earnings doing electrical work on the side was just that.
Where is the "assistance"?
(I understand some of the criticism, but I don't understand calling earnings and earned benefits "assistance". I draw a pension - am I getting "assistance"?)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 20, 2011 12:56:17 GMT -5
(I understand some of the criticism, but I don't understand calling earnings and earned benefits "assistance". I draw a pension - am I getting "assistance"?)
Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean assistance as in welfare, I meant assistance as in "rare benefit that allowed them to do this much more easily than they ever would have been able to otherwise."
A private healthcare policy for a family of eight would probably cost $17k all by itself, if not more. So that was a pretty major step up they had from most families.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 13:00:56 GMT -5
They didn't put the kids through college using his pension. They didn't put the million plus in the bank using his pension. They didn't even pay off the house using his pension. They survived on his pension. All the extras that everyone is lauding them for, and using as an example of what great parents they are, came from her getting lucky with a home business. The newsletter and book deals paid for the kids college, paid off the house, and put the money in the bank. Choosing to continue to raise the kids in poverty after the book deals was just some wacky decision they made, it's not why they got as successful as they are.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 13:04:12 GMT -5
Technically they didn't even survive on his pension. Read the article, their expenses were $17,580 for a poverty like existence, and his pension was only $14k. Even with the scrimping they couldn't have made it on his pension alone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 20, 2011 13:04:58 GMT -5
I would have much less of a problem with how they did things if they didn't have kids, GG. Or if they had only one kid.
But six kids is a hell of a burden for anyone, under any circumstances whatsoever. And trying to raise, clothe, feed and take care of them on a $17k $14k (I keep forgetting his pension was only $14k) pension just strikes me as incredibly foolish any way you slice it.
As I keep saying, I'm glad they got lucky but I wonder if they realize a) how lucky they actually are, and b) how easily they could have gotten really screwed, really fast.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 20, 2011 13:05:56 GMT -5
A private healthcare policy for a family of eight would probably cost $17k all by itself, if not more. So that was a pretty major step up they had from most families.
True, and they apparently factored in that aspect in their decision.
(I have a pretty generous healthcare benefit with my retirement and without it, I probably would not have retired at 54)
All the extras that everyone is lauding them for, and using as an example of what great parents they are, came from her getting lucky with a home business.
Well, I haven't seen any "lauding" for being great parents. I've seen a lot of criticism, actually.... I admire her creativity (from reading the TG). And the success of the home business (the newsletter) was a bit more than luck.... I think most successful home businesses are the result of a good idea, hard work, AND luck..... Just mo.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 20, 2011 13:07:18 GMT -5
Well, I haven't seen any "lauding" for being great parents. I've seen a lot of criticism, actually.... I admire her creativity (from reading the TG). And the success of the home business (the newsletter) was a bit more than luck.... I think most successful home businesses are the result of a good idea, hard work, AND luck..... Just mo.
They actually strike me as terrific parents. Very hands-on, involved with their children, and obviously deeply committed to them.
They just also strike me as foolish in the extreme. I would call living the way they did just as big of a risk as trying to keep up with the Jones.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 13:08:11 GMT -5
I think most successful home businesses are the result of a good idea, hard work, AND luck..... Just mo. True, but without the luck the businesses usually fail, or at least fail to make any real money, no matter how much hard work you put into them.
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