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Post by bobbysgirl on May 18, 2011 11:41:21 GMT -5
Frugalpaininthebum, I am so jealous. How do you know Amy? I interviewed her for my blog. It ended up being a personal conversation (2 hours) so I was careful what I put on the blog. If you want to read it go to my blog and choose 'series' at the top of the page. Then scroll down to find the post. EDIT: I lied. The conversation was 1 hour. I went back to read the post on my blog.
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startsmart
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Post by startsmart on May 18, 2011 11:42:44 GMT -5
OP- if you wanted support for Amy this should have been posted on SS ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) if you wanted to get things riled up good job! What kills me about this thread is that most of you have not heard anything about this family except from this one 14 year old article and make your own judgements, only firebird really pointed out her own ignorance here ;D Every money decision is a choice. Yes, YM is big on earning more for as long as you can and stock/real estate investments. But this family is not ignorant, they just chose different paths! Yes, I get it's in the YM blood to bitch and complain how other people are living but that's what annoys me the most. They like their life. The kids are seemingly well adjusted and happy. They're not surviving on government support, charity and suffering. I don't care to eat muffin surprise but that's me. From reading the book and many things about this family over the years, I can't see a world where the kids were getting used shoe induced food fungus, ill from spoiled food or becoming emotionally crippled freaks because they didn't play soccer. They do cost analysis on everything and I can't imagine they're secretly suffering with Botulism to keep up appearances. Personally I'd encourage my kids to love each other and be friends. Learning how to repair and maintain an older home and property would be great. Having enough banked income from selling books so I could choose to work in a traditional manner or not work is a dream for most people - why continue to knock a family who did it? Like firebird, my personality will probably never let me completely retire. Lying on a beach sounds great for about 20 minutes. 20 years would kill me. I'll likely always be doing something that could be labeled "work" and I'm okay with that. But I don't hate on people who chose to use retirement years to relax in a paid off home, spend time with their family and participate in low cost activities. You know, people like my grandparents. And I know everyone is so concerned about the kids. Oh, how neglected. They didn't see every Disney movie in theaters? Shame. They don't get weekly trips to the mall for new outfits and toys and more stuff? Shame. Instead they got two parents who taught them about money (allowance for working), prepared meals at home, a paid college education and most of all a way of living that didn't make them jealous and resentful of the things they didn't have but appreciative of the things they did have. I can't express how much I would LOVE to put some YM posters in that house as children. You know, the ones who "can't live" without an iPhone and bought SUVs because "everyone else has one" and won't even consider giving up dinner out because "we work hard" all while the electric bill is past due.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 11:48:24 GMT -5
Firebird that is what bothered me when I read Tightwad Gazette. If I had posted on here that I wanted to quit working with six kids and we were going to live on DH's $14k pension while I shopped at discount grocers and saved ripped clothing for scraps posters would have probably skinned me alive.
I am glad it worked out for them and I do find it pretty amazing they were able to pay off their dream house and send all 6 kids to college while doing it.
But it could have gone SO WRONG in so many ways that I cannot fully praise her. She HAD to do all this stuff otherwise they would have been up a shit creek.
I am glad the risk they took paid off for them, but that is a HUGE risk when you got 6 kids to support.
I choose to implement a lot of it because I like to save money and have it working for me, but I do not HAVE to and personally I like having the space to decide.
I'd rather be like Phil or WCP than Amy to be honest.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 11:48:45 GMT -5
There is so much more to life than working..... However, in our society we don't seem to really value that much anymore. No one has any idea how long they have to live, why spend all of your life working and then drop dead? I would rephrase that by saying, "There is so much more to life than working OUTSIDE THE HOME...." because they still worked; it sounds to me like they worked VERY HARD just to feed and clothe their family. And I agree that that kind of work is not highly valued in our society - just as many people do not value someone spending their time to "save money" as opposed to using their time to "earn money". To me money is money. And I know it first hand. When DH and I would go to corporate functions and people asked me what I did assuming that I worked outside the home, I did not go into a dissertation on how I managed DH's 401k making hundreds of thousands of dollars toward his retirement or that I ran my household like a business, etc. I simply said that I was a SAHM. A lot of time the response was, "Oh."
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 11:52:18 GMT -5
But it could have gone SO WRONG in so many ways that I cannot fully praise her. She HAD to do all this stuff otherwise they would have been up a shit creek. I choose to implement a lot of it because I like to save money and have it working for me, but I do not HAVE to and personally I like having the space to decide. DING DING DING We have a winner!! ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/button29934414.png)
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 18, 2011 11:56:57 GMT -5
This is from memory-I don't have the book right now. Basically she said that she had no problems with coupons, but that because they were generally for name brands (which she didn't purchase) and for ready to eat/processed foods (which she purchaeqs very little of), she felt she could do better on her own. She was referring to the use of coupons as a way to lower food costs. Because of her large family, the cost of food was one of the largest expenses. She did save a lot growing their own veggies and fruits. I think she added that using coupons might help someone save if they wanted the name brands. Waiting for a rock bottom sale and combining with a coupon on a name brand product is ALWAYS cheaper than buying a generic. I have trouble with words like "always". I have purchased a generic Costco brand for less than a sale/coupon combo. More than once. I always try to do the math.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 11:57:41 GMT -5
Frugalpaininthebum, I am so jealous. How do you know Amy? I interviewed her for my blog. It ended up being a personal conversation (2 hours) so I was careful what I put on the blog. If you want to read it go to my blog and choose 'series' at the top of the page. Then scroll down to find the post. I really enjoyed reading your interview. It is really worth the time, but I do agree with others that it could have gone all-bad. Personally, I would not have been able to stomach (especially the early years) wondering how I was going to survive on $14K a year for the rest of my life.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 12:00:13 GMT -5
DH wouldn't have to live on $14k, he'd have my insurance money after i dropped dead from the stress. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 18, 2011 12:16:29 GMT -5
Personally, I would not have been able to stomach (especially the early years) wondering how I was going to survive on $14K a year for the rest of my life. I feel quite similarly, but they definitely had a few things going for them. - I believe the dream house was paid off.
- They had health care for life sewn up.
- They'd been living on a similar amount for several years and had the records to see how it was done.
- They could anticipate the kids leaving the house and taking their day to day expenses with them.
- They had a pile of money to pay for the kids' college and fall back on.
- They had plenty of untapped earning power.
- The gazette and the anthologies were still bringing in income that wasn't counted in that $14K.
- Those were 1991 dollars.
Through good planning and good luck, they'd put themselves in a position to do something quite unusual. I'm not sure they were reckless.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 12:24:31 GMT -5
Waiting for a rock bottom sale and combining with a coupon on a name brand product is ALWAYS cheaper than buying a generic. I have trouble with words like "always". I have purchased a generic Costco brand for less than a sale/coupon combo. More than once. I always try to do the math. Okay, maybe ALWAYS is a little strong. The ONE thing that I do find myself running out of from sales/couponing is cheese and I have had to buy it at Costco from time to time. The food item that we buy semi-regularly at Costco that is far better quality is fresh seafood - crab legs, lobster tails, scallops, etc. We sometimes buy booze (if I did not stockpile enough during the Christmas/New Years sales at the drug chains) and occasionally will get some of their fresh bakery items or a nice finger food like calamari or egg rolls or those little quiches if we realize that we are going to have company over for cocktails. The non-food items are glasses, contacts, DH's t-shirts because the Kirkland brand is absolutely, hands-down the best quality and rewetting drops (although DH is in the process of using some that I got free at RA, but that was an anomaly). And if it weren't for the great deal on glasses and contacts, I would probably not have a membership at all and occasionally pick up the t-shirts and rewetting drops when I happened to be there with my sister cuz the cost of the membership would not be cost effective otherwise.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5
Personally, I would not have been able to stomach (especially the early years) wondering how I was going to survive on $14K a year for the rest of my life. I feel quite similarly, but they definitely had a few things going for them. - I believe the dream house was paid off.
- They had health care for life sewn up.
- They'd been living on a similar amount for several years and had the records to see how it was done.
- They could anticipate the kids leaving the house and taking their day to day expenses with them.
- They had a pile of money to pay for the kids' college and fall back on.
- They had plenty of untapped earning power.
- The gazette and the anthologies were still bringing in income that wasn't counted in that $14K.
- Those were 1991 dollars.
Through good planning and good luck, they'd put themselves in a position to do something quite unusual. I'm not sure they were reckless. I'm talking about before they had even though about the Tightwad Gazette.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 12:32:31 GMT -5
" but I do agree with others that it could have gone all-bad" How hard would it have been for Amy's husband to pick up a part time job making $4k a year? Not hard at all, I imagine. I'm sure that would have been plan B. Maybe you'd be comfortable with that, but it would not have cut it for me. I'm not a "live on the edge" type of gal. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 12:38:33 GMT -5
They had health care for life sewn up.
This is an exception though, not a norm. Sure I could afford to quit my job and DH could as well if we didn't have to pay for healthcare for ourselves and our kid.
Again while I admire they've succeeded, there are some exceptions there that most people DO NOT have and will never have.
They probably could not have done if they did not have assured free health care for life.
How hard would it have been for Amy's husband to pick up a part time job making $4k a year? Not hard at all, I imagine. I'm sure that would have been plan B.
I do not have free healthcare so even if my DH picked up a $4k a year part time job that would probably not be enough to make up for what we'd have to pay for insurance for ourselves and DD.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 18, 2011 12:42:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure how long the gazette was running before he retired. She's also pretty mum about the freelance income that she was making in the early days as well as what the gazette was bringing in and when. They bought the first house three to five years before the first kid arrived. She may have started outearning her husband fairly early in the marriage. Most of that money went toward freedom-building and she's pretty sketchy about how much there was.
They did an astounding job of tying up the variable and unknowns that would prevent most people from doing something so dramatic. An awful lot of that has to do with the husband's Navy job. The pension and healthcare benefits really took a lot of the unknowns out of the picture.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on May 18, 2011 12:43:50 GMT -5
If you want to read it go to my blog and choose 'series' at the top of the page. Then scroll down to find the post Found it. Nice blog! #thumbsup# #karma2#
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 12:49:10 GMT -5
It's not like they were just awarded free healthcare by chance. It was all part of their plan. They planned for everything
I didn't say they were, but most people are not in that position.
The article is misleading because there are a lot of factors they had taken out of the picture for them, sure you can live the good life if you don't have to pay for your own health care and have a pension because two big things most people worry about: health care and retirement are taken out of the equation.
I can do everything that Amy does and not be able to live on a $14k a year. I suppose if I WANTED to we could structure our lives in a way that eventually we could get down that low, but I don't want to.
I just disagree with saying she lives the good life because of their frugal ways. She lives the good life because they don't have to worry about what a good chunk of other people have to worry about and it makes it easier to do what they did.
Penisons are disappearing and shrinking, personally there is no way in hell even if one of us had one that I'd be banking on it to last me and my husband clear thru till the end. He's 38 and I am 27, that's along time to make a $14k a year pension last.
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teppe2
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Post by teppe2 on May 18, 2011 13:22:05 GMT -5
Other points to consider. He retired in '91 so he had 20 years of saving up money while in the service. They got married in '82 so there were 11 years with no dependents and very minor bills. She was working for several years before children. Apart from the medical expenses which can be very low in the military, there are many things that are subsidized in one way or another for military families. His pay while he was in may well have been more than what is usually quoted because most of the time articles refer to base pay only but omit BAH (then BAQ/VHA), BAS, clothing allowance,he may have gotten sea pay and/or other special pays). Also what happened to his GI Bill? My hubby was an enlisted nuke from '85 -'91 when he got out to go to college. We were already together then and got married in '89. At the time we were actually doing quite well between his pay and my internship stipend. Did Jim ever go to college? While my husband did, he didn't use all of it, we recently got a letter saying he still has $5,000 and that this can be transferred to our children. There are also scholarships for military children, nothing is ever said about whether they might have utilized those. But apart from that, she started the newsletter about 15 months before he retired on Oct '91; in 1991 they grossed $750,000 in revenue and as far as I know the amount for her book advances were never made public, only referred to as "substantial". In addition to that, they were planning on $14,000 pension plus $12,000 from the newsletter per year for a family of 6 (the twins weren't in the picture). From what I know the house was paid of in '97 by the way so no housing and low medical costs. Was anything ever said about grandparents? I am not sure that they never made any presents to the children at all (like new clothing or toys).
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 18, 2011 13:33:29 GMT -5
It's not really living on the edge. If they wanted, they both could get full time jobs. They only *needed* a way to earn $4k more. Like Haapai said, there was lots of untapped earning power. In today's environment that earning power might not be as easy "to tap" as it sounds, especially for two people who had been out of the work force. And obviously, our idea about "living on the edge" is different. Going to the extremes that they had to go to to raise and feed their family is "living on the edge" (for me).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 13:36:34 GMT -5
In today's environment that earning power might not be as easy "to tap" as it sounds, especially for two people who had been out of the work force ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif)
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 18, 2011 13:38:46 GMT -5
I think it was only three or five years before the first kid arrived.
I suspect that when he took the Navy job, he was looking at the pension and healthcare was almost a non-issue. I'll give them credit for being planners but I doubt that they knew the value of what they were signing up for back then.
Isn't it amazing how anxiety regarding health care and health insurance costs has eroded our risk tolerance?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 18, 2011 13:43:32 GMT -5
Isn't it amazing how anxiety regarding health care and health insurance costs has eroded our risk tolerance?
I woudn't say I have no risk tolerance, I just would not take THEIR risks.
I'd rather take the risk of making more money or generating passive income. Our lives are such that if that backfired we can go back ot living on our current salaries.
But no way I'd be able to stomach living on $14k a year, especially with 6 kids.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 18, 2011 13:47:27 GMT -5
I just disagree with saying she lives the good life because of their frugal ways. She lives the good life because they don't have to worry about what a good chunk of other people have to worry about and it makes it easier to do what they did.
This. So much this.
And even if they did have the two big things locked up - pensions disappear sometimes, and most healthcare plans do not cover everything. I have no idea how good the veteran benefit health care plan is, but I imagine that if one of their kids had cancer, it would have changed the equation significantly and no piddling $4k/year part time job could have ever hoped to make up the difference.
They had a pile of money to pay for the kids' college and fall back on.
What pile of money was that? The $50k that they saved and then used to buy their house?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 18, 2011 14:17:51 GMT -5
They're not surviving on government support, charity and suffering. I keep hearing the they are not on govt. support. She may not have been on the programs that you traditionally think of as welfare, but I really doubt they turned down the EITC & refundable child tax credits that they would have been eligible to recieve. I would count that as govt. support.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 18, 2011 14:19:30 GMT -5
Neither of those tax credits existed in the 90's. They're probably getting them now though.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 18, 2011 14:29:13 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 18, 2011 14:35:56 GMT -5
I thought the EITC wasn't made refundable until the mid or late 90s though. Wasn't it included in the whole package of changes in Clinton's workfare instead of welfare thing? A non refundable tax credit wouldn't help them at all since they were living on such a small income they wouldn't have had federal tax liability anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 14:43:42 GMT -5
They had health care for life sewn up. They have a better than a lot of people but they are still running a big risk. According to the article they have a 20% coinsurance. That's what I have on my insurance and it adds up quickly when you have health problems. I've spent several thousand this year already.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 18, 2011 14:48:32 GMT -5
I think EITC was always refundable because I believe part of it's original purpose was to refund SS & medicare taxes to the poor. Even today that is part of it's purpose, look at the table & you can see the credit rate for those with no children is 7.65%.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 18, 2011 14:52:07 GMT -5
I think EITC was always refundable because I believe part of it's original purpose was to refund SS & medicare taxes to the poor. Even today that is part of it's purpose, look at the table & you can see the credit rate for those with no children is 7.65%. You might be right. I hadn't noticed the 7.65% thing. I tried to ask the googlez, but had no luck.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 18, 2011 14:55:06 GMT -5
I think it was always refundable but it was a bit player until its expansion in the early 90s. It's a goliath now.
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