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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2011 8:46:37 GMT -5
I guess I'm one of those greedy rich people (retired at 43) Some people might say I'm too high and mighty looking down my nose at all the poor and down trodden around me. But this isn't true, I can't even see my property lines when in my house or yard. So how can they see me? You can cry all you want about my shortcomings, but I'm not going to change. I've also become an expert at making even more money using the liberal policies often stated here. Carry on, I do no feel sorry for anyone, after taking my share of lumps in my lifetime. My family and friends are "well" cared for.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 8:49:40 GMT -5
<<< and in a free country- why shouldn't it be our expectation that we would be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor? >>> ...herein lies the crux of this matter, imo... when I feel less "free," I feel less "American," and am willing to "take my ball" elsewhere... iow, the "American Way" inlcudes "get outta my way." ...by the rate things are going in DC, it doesn't bode well for continued GDP growth here, huh? Where you gonna go? If we don't win freedom here, there won't be freedom anywhere. The problem is that while America IS an idea- and is therefore mobile; our founding documents have codified the idea and the best shot we have at liberty is RESTORING our own founding legal framework. It will be a tad more difficult to transport the framework elsewhere and establish a new form of government-- why not just re-establish our form of government here?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 8:51:18 GMT -5
To me, once you have enough to live comfortably, it's time to start looking around to see what you might be able to do for those who have not. How can you help? How can you teach? How can you reach out? Rather than concentrate on becoming wealthy in goods and coin, why not concentrate on how to become wealthy by measuring the number of people you've actually helped with no gain to yourself? I agree. However, the last part of this post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the law of reciprocity. You cannot help someone else without helping yourself. And if government takes it all, it's kinda tough to give it.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on May 9, 2011 8:55:05 GMT -5
I'm in business for myself too. And my goal is to make a good living while providing good service to my clients at a fair price. I don't need to be rich. I also think I have an obligation as a decent human being to give back to my community, both financially and with my time and talents.
I guess I'm a lazy socialist. That's makes you less of a socialist. Just as we do, you earn it, you save a little, you spend a little and you give a little. Nothing socialist about you deciding what you do with what you earn. "I find it greedy to covet and demand a cut of something earned by somebody else."
I find it incredibly shortsighted and dishonest to suggest one earned their fortune all by their little old lonesome self.. without benefit of the system we have... and which has to be supported... Never suggested anything about "the system", but since you brought it up, it's still not shortsighted, just realistic. They actually did earn it all by themselves since the rich man has the wealth that I do not. Believe it or not, the exact same system that the evil, greedy rich man used is also available to me. He took advantage of that system and did what it took to become rich. I did not. Those evil, greedy rich folks also pay the majority of the taxes so I'd say they already do support "the system"....much more than ordinary middle class folks like myself do.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 8:57:41 GMT -5
In summation, this thread is about a young man that is good at speaking and writing. He is a stay at home dad with a wife that probably works fulltime at home or in an office. He is or has been in a real-estate partnership being paid a percentage. Since he began this endeavor, the real-estate market has crashed, as would the value of his investments. However, he may be in the property management aspect of the business. He will also work some small gigs for additional income. At best, Paul’s advice is very general in nature but he is motivational and some young people will be helped by this. Many of us however have been there, done that, and probably with as much if not more success. OK, saluting is just a little over the top. It's always interesting to me when people have to guess at what I do and have done. I'm one of the most transparent people here. And I can get as detailed as you want, but the fact is there is plenty of HOW TO out there. I started this thread as a discussion of economic and political philosophy on the foundation of WHY to. With no WHY, there is no good done by anyone. It's easy to say, well, we should TAKE money from people who already have enough to live comfortably (as determined by the people wishing to do the TAKING), and give it to those who, by and large, are a product of their own poor decision making. The end result is that we end up with a system that PUNISHES good decisions and REWARDS poor decisions. The end result of that kind of system is a whole lot of poor decision making and not so much incentive to do anything right. My point isn't about me, or my success. I used my own story to provide some insight into the mindset of a great many people in our country who get up and go at it every day trying to get rich. We aren't in it first and foremost for others. But others benefit by default.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 9:02:39 GMT -5
I would add that for the most part the "system" didn't benefit me in any way. 80% of what the government does (at all levels) is more of a hinderance than a help. I like firefighters and police. I like the military to protect me. I like the courts to uphold contracts freely entered into by two parties. But for the most part, the "system" got in the way- and the ultimate insult? I have to fund the system, and then I have to in my business at least COMPETE with those who use the system I pay for to their advantage and my disadvantage. To wit: my company will not take direct government aid, so we do not do any subsidized housing programs or undertake to do anything that is subsidized by government. That puts us in competition with those that do- and when you invest in low income neighborhoods as we do, it's tough to convince a person that they'd be better off toughing it out outside the government system rather than just take the subsidy and go Section 8.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 9:07:00 GMT -5
If you had more, you could give more. The reality is that if you believe what you believe- you won't be able to help getting rich-- nevermind that you will at some point be shocked to learn that according to the TAKERS you ARE rich.
And as long as you understand that you don't have an obligation to roll over and let the government take everything you've earned, then you're not a socialist.
If you think it's fine for the government to take 70% to 100% (proposed by FDR) of everything you earn over some arbitrary amount-- then you can start writing those checks now. You do not have to wait for legislation. Just make the check payable to the Internal Revenue Service, or the Treasury of the United States-- want the address?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 9:09:39 GMT -5
I guess I'm one of those greedy rich people (retired at 43) Some people might say I'm too high and mighty looking down my nose at all the poor and down trodden around me. But this isn't true, I can't even see my property lines when in my house or yard. So how can they see me? You can cry all you want about my shortcomings, but I'm not going to change. I've also become an expert at making even more money using the liberal policies often stated here. Carry on, I do no feel sorry for anyone, after taking my share of lumps in my lifetime. My family and friends are "well" cared for. Not to hijack my own thread, but I doubt you retired in the sense that most lazy people think. My whole family thinks we don't do anything, but the truth is we are in many ways busier than ever. We just don't have jobs. We occasionally work "IN" our buinesses, but we mostly just work ON the businesses now.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on May 9, 2011 9:21:48 GMT -5
I would add that for the most part the "system" didn't benefit me in any way. 80% of what the government does (at all levels) is more of a hinderance than a help. And that was my point....bringing up "the system" is immaterial since "the system", whether it's a help or a hindrance, is there for all, not a select few. The biggest difference between me and the "rich man" is risk, effort and opportunity. They saw an opportunity. They took the risk. They put forth the effort.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 9, 2011 9:23:25 GMT -5
If you had more, you could give more. The reality is that if you believe what you believe- you won't be able to help getting rich-- nevermind that you will at some point be shocked to learn that according to the TAKERS you ARE rich. And as long as you understand that you don't have an obligation to roll over and let the government take everything you've earned, then you're not a socialist. If you think it's fine for the government to take 70% to 100% (proposed by FDR) of everything you earn over some arbitrary amount-- then you can start writing those checks now. You do not have to wait for legislation. Just make the check payable to the Internal Revenue Service, or the Treasury of the United States-- want the address? And if I had less, I'd give less. Meh, what I do works for me. And I fully understand that some people think I'm rich, but to the really rich, I'm a pauper. I have the address for the IRS, but thanks for thinking of me.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 10:15:00 GMT -5
I would add that for the most part the "system" didn't benefit me in any way. 80% of what the government does (at all levels) is more of a hinderance than a help. And that was my point....bringing up "the system" is immaterial since "the system", whether it's a help or a hindrance, is there for all, not a select few. The biggest difference between me and the "rich man" is risk, effort and opportunity. They saw an opportunity. They took the risk. They put forth the effort. Well, the danger of an out of control government that spends to the point of insolvency is that the system will collapse. There's also a threat from a system that produces 70,000 new pages of regulation every year (on average) and that has a 10,000 page confusing tax code is that you get big businesses in bed with government working against small businesses. People fear businesses getting too big, but they don't seem to have the same healthy fear of government. I believe in government regulation to prevent abuses, but who watches the watchers?
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on May 9, 2011 10:30:46 GMT -5
Well, the danger of an out of control government that spends to the point of insolvency is that the system will collapse.
There's also a threat from a system that produces 70,000 new pages of regulation every year (on average) and that has a 10,000 page confusing tax code is that you get big businesses in bed with government working against small businesses.
People fear businesses getting too big, but they don't seem to have the same healthy fear of government. I believe in government regulation to prevent abuses, but who watches the watchers? I agree, but I wasn't arguing the merits of any particular point of "the system", just that the system that rich folks use to get rich is the exact same system each and every one of us can use to get rich.
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Post by gsbrq on May 9, 2011 18:54:52 GMT -5
Paul, haven't seen you recently on your thread about "when it all comes crashing down"...wasn't the apocalypse supposed to happen last week?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 21:38:37 GMT -5
Paul, haven't seen you recently on your thread about "when it all comes crashing down"...wasn't the apocalypse supposed to happen last week? Housing is officially in a double dip, gas prices are at record highs, unemployment just spiked back up over 9%, and the dollar is in freefall. The crash started a few weeks ago.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 21:51:19 GMT -5
There is a difference between a landlord, and a slumlord... Both make money. One does it with some ethics...I would have said the difference is that the landlord wants to increase his return so he improves his property, which will allow him to increase his rent. A slumlord just wants to maximize his gain at the cost of the property value of the property. Both have the main goal of making money they just approach it differently. My tenants aren't complaining. The President's top aid and "mind meld" partner, Valerie Jarrett's tenants will tell you about slum lording. Had to be a crushing blow to them when the President couldn't close the Olympics deal so Valerie could sell her shit hole properties.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 9, 2011 22:01:56 GMT -5
If someone had everything they wanted and needed they sure as hell wouldn't be here telling everyone about it. I think being humble in some sense is part of that equation. But this is a money board no surprise everyone is obsessed with their money.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 9, 2011 22:20:23 GMT -5
If someone had everything they wanted and needed they sure as hell wouldn't be here telling everyone about it. I think being humble in some sense is part of that equation. But this is a money board no surprise everyone is obsessed with their money. And you're what? The voice of reason calling us back from the edge? You landed here somehow. My guess is that it's that you had some interest in a money related topic.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 9, 2011 22:40:18 GMT -5
Oh yeah paul I need a new place in your area do you take section 8?
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Post by ameiko on May 9, 2011 22:48:32 GMT -5
"I find it greedy to covet and demand a cut of something earned by somebody else." I find it incredibly shortsighted and dishonest to suggest one earned their fortune all by their little old lonesome self... without benefit of the system we have... and which has to be supported... But why should the successful pay more, and in some cases much more, to support said system? We all live in that system and can take advantage of its opportunities yet only the successful are suppsoed to support it? Doesn't compute... like much of liberalism. Also, yeah we don't have problems supporting roads and the military but we do have issues with poverty creating programs like welfare and other wealth transfer programs as well as the failing public schools that are more concerned with "Heather has Two Mommies" than Johnny Can't Read.
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Post by Tennesseer on May 9, 2011 22:54:11 GMT -5
If someone had everything they wanted and needed they sure as hell wouldn't be here telling everyone about it. I think being humble in some sense is part of that equation. But this is a money board no surprise everyone is obsessed with their money. And you're what? The voice of reason calling us back from the edge? You landed here somehow. My guess is that it's that you had some interest in a money related topic. There are a number of boards (Market Talk, Smart Spending, Investing: Basic and Beyond, Your Money, Tax Talk) which are more money related than Politics (and domestic and international news). The word 'Market' should be deleted from this board title.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 9, 2011 22:57:52 GMT -5
If you had more, you could give more. The reality is that if you believe what you believe- you won't be able to help getting rich-- nevermind that you will at some point be shocked to learn that according to the TAKERS you ARE rich. And as long as you understand that you don't have an obligation to roll over and let the government take everything you've earned, then you're not a socialist. If you think it's fine for the government to take 70% to 100% (proposed by FDR) of everything you earn over some arbitrary amount-- then you can start writing those checks now. You do not have to wait for legislation. Just make the check payable to the Internal Revenue Service, or the Treasury of the United States-- want the address? +1! Few things I hate more than the hypocrites who think Uncle Sam deserves more money yet doesn't practice what they preach by sending in that money on a voluntary basis which they would force others to do at the point of a gun.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on May 9, 2011 22:59:27 GMT -5
which are more money related than Politics (and domestic and international news).
And you wonder why I nod off every now and again?
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Post by gsbrq on May 9, 2011 23:26:56 GMT -5
"I did not quit my job, and risk everything we have in order to....2. Give back- I didn't TAKE anything- what would I "give back"?"
The arrogance of "prosperity gospel" in a nutshell. You were just hatched out of an egg, and absorbed all your education and knowledge straight from the air...no help from anyone, any community, any school or organization...
I don't get it. Is it so threatening to acknowledge the role other folks have played in your life's success? Or are really so blind you can't even see them?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on May 9, 2011 23:29:51 GMT -5
"I don't get it. Is it so threatening to acknowledge the role other folks have played in your life's success? Or are really so blind you can't even see them?"
It's the culture of ME that so many suffer from....sadly they do not see it and think they live in a vaccuum.
Oh and I like ameikos touch of adding how expecting people to pay a share of taxes is a criminal violent act that people run around with guns demanding taxes....too much
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Post by gsbrq on May 9, 2011 23:44:33 GMT -5
"Few things I hate more than the hypocrites who think Uncle Sam deserves more money yet doesn't practice what they preach by sending in that money on a voluntary basis which they would force others to do at the point of a gun. "
I see this all the time from right-wingers who don't appear to understand what a ridiculous statement it is. To illustrate:
Why aren't the anti-immigrant protesters sending extra money in to the INS? Why don't the "law & order" folks send their donations straight to Sheriff Joe's jails? Why doesn't every pro-lifer send huge chunks of money to Africa for mosquito netting so that millions of kids won't die from malaria?
So silly...perhaps one day they'll realize this particular argument only makes them look ignorant.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 14, 2011 7:33:46 GMT -5
"I don't get it. Is it so threatening to acknowledge the role other folks have played in your life's success? Or are really so blind you can't even see them?" It's the culture of ME that so many suffer from....sadly they do not see it and think they live in a vaccuum. Oh and I like ameikos touch of adding how expecting people to pay a share of taxes is a criminal violent act that people run around with guns demanding taxes....too much Shelby, learn reading comprehension: it would help youi greatly. Neither Paul nor I have an issue paying "a share of taxes" persay because some things need to be paid for like military and roads. We and many others in our camp have said this repeatedly. The issues we have do include the ME culture as in "steal from that person to give to ME!!!!!!" Naked wealth transfers which include most "social spending", building bridges to nowhere, building high speed rail in another state with federal, are theft AND also fall outside of the US Constitution. We also have issue with the idea that because one is successful they should pay more, indeed MUCH more, taxes and that's this is somehow fair. Indeed, some people actually GET money back from the government; they are most not certainly paying "a share of taxes." So we have issues with taxes that are unfair (disproportionate to our income), unconstitutional, and the entitlement attitude friom slugs who give nothing. And it's all done under the threat of the gun. Do not pay your taxes and see what happens: the cops aren't going to knock on your own with wiffle ball bats!
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 14, 2011 7:40:44 GMT -5
"Few things I hate more than the hypocrites who think Uncle Sam deserves more money yet doesn't practice what they preach by sending in that money on a voluntary basis which they would force others to do at the point of a gun. " I see this all the time from right-wingers who don't appear to understand what a ridiculous statement it is. To illustrate: Why aren't the anti-immigrant protesters sending extra money in to the INS? Why don't the "law & order" folks send their donations straight to Sheriff Joe's jails? Why doesn't every pro-lifer send huge chunks of money to Africa for mosquito netting so that millions of kids won't die from malaria? So silly...perhaps one day they'll realize this particular argument only makes them look ignorant. While I appreciate your attempt to argue from a logical POV rather than an emotional one, well you still fail. This is about the hypocrisy of people advocating forcing someone to do under threat of legal force (and thus violence) what they will not do themselves willingly. None of your examples apply. It doesn't matter how much money people who support strong borders send to the INS if the INS will not do its job. Your law and order comments are similarly silly. Such people demand that the law be enforced and people do not break the laws. Now if those same people are committing crimes, then they are hypocrites. We see no such thing here. As for your pro-lifer arguement, again what nonsense and ignorance. Many pro-lifers actually DO support charities and faith based charties are extremely active around the world, including Africa. That said, the desire to protect children in the womb in the US has little to do with malaria netting in Africa. Again, your accusations of hypocrisy would only hold weight if a "pro-lifer" aborted their own child. That would be a "do as I say, not as I do." You lefties are so silly; it saddens me that you can vote.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 8:50:38 GMT -5
it's not that they are wealthy that's the problem.. it's the 'let's shove it in everyone's face and gloat and say how much better i am BECAUSE i'm wealthy" that i hate.
The above is a statement that I've heard over & over all my life. The funny thing is that even though I've know a lot of wealthy people, not once have I actually seen that happen. I think that it really happens in real life so rarely that most people will never see it. In other words it's an urban myth.
My guess is that when people with less money are around people with a lot of money they are very paranoid about it. The rich person buys an expensive car & the poor person thinks that he is rubbing it in that he can spend so much on a car. The truth is that the rich person is actually spending "less" of his disposable income on an car than the poor person & probably buying much less of a car than he can afford. So he's not rubbing it in, he's understating his purchasing power.
Now are there snotty rich people, the answer is of course there are. But I'm betting that percentage wise there are a lot more snotty middle class people than there are rich people (& there's snotty poor people too btw). My wife's ex in-laws were the perfect example. They thought that they were better than anyone else because they had money & treated people as less worthy than they were. Yet they were just working class that made a pretty good living who lived above their means (or at least at the top of their means). Down south we call what they were doing "putting on airs".
When we were first married my wife (who they treated like she was trash) told me a lot about them. One day I told her my assessment of them & added the comment that I bet my folks had more money than they do. Scared the **** out of her because she hadn't met my folks yet. Once she met them she couldn't believe that they acted "normal" but actually had money. So I'll repeat again that I believe that the rich "rubbing it in" is an urban myth. That's something that a certain percentage of the population does no matter what their economic status.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 8:51:09 GMT -5
This message has been deleted because it was a double post.
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