lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 26, 2011 0:24:43 GMT -5
I've posted before about MIL and FIL, who are very dear to us. We still plan to pay off the remainder of their mortgage for them (pending some final negotiations), and in fall of 2009 we had set up a joint account (DH/DMIL/DFIL) with 10K in it, meant to serve as a medical emergency fund. MIL had been having some severe health issues that were largely anxiety-related; we hoped that this might help a little in alleviating anxiety, and also help avoid any misguided urges to save money--we do NOT want them reacting to stabbing chest pains with "ambulances are expensive, let's wait a couple days and see if it goes away"!
Anyway, they thanked us graciously and ignored the account for almost a year. Early last fall, they mentioned casually that they'd taken $2K out of it to pay property taxes. We were a little taken aback, since we'd figured it for unusual medical expenses, but didn't make a big deal of it--after all, we'd set it up for them to use if they needed it and it was good to know they'd overcome the initial resistance to using it.
The rub, of course, is that it's now several months later and they've been drawing 1K a month or more. It's not clear whether that's medical or supplementing living costs, I'd guess both. DH will have a talk with DFIL (who is the go-to spouse for monthly bill/money management) to discuss what's going on. It will not be an accusatory sort of conversation, because that's not how DH rolls; it'll be a "talk to me, how are things going and how can we best help?" sort of discussion.
Our position is this: we love them, we'd like to keep them as long as possible, and we are ready, willing and able to provide supplementary financial resources to make sure they're comfortable. We also recognize that autonomy is important--definitely not interested in demanding accounting records or lecturing them on spending habits! That said, I have to admit that $12-15K a year is a higher basal burn rate than we'd anticipated. We can and will cover it without severe strain to our own budget and goals...but it does make you stop and think about boundaries.
I know there's not much to be done until we talk to them and get a better idea of what's going on--maybe they really are having a medical emergency once a month? But I'd appreciate hearing thoughts.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 26, 2011 0:42:49 GMT -5
They reached old age without learning to control spending or they wouldn't need help. You can't expect them to learn now and that account is a major temptation. Without they may have paid the taxes from their money but it was easier to take from the account.
One of my brothers gave each of his adult children a credit card in case of emergency. His girl never used it but the boy had an emergency every month until he got talked to. They each have a bunch of kids so emergencies can be a daily occurrence.
After your DH talks to his dad it might solve the problem. If not you might decide to give them an allowance and offer to pick up any medical cost over a hundred a month if they give you the bills. You could require DH and DFIL to both sign any checks on the account.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Apr 26, 2011 0:45:18 GMT -5
My two cents' worth....
If I wanted to help someone out financially and I'm particular about how my money is spent, I wouldn't give people cash. I would keep my money in my account, and would then directly pay certain bills or creditors.
But if you choose to give cash directly to them, you really do lose the ability to dictate where it goes. If this is a problem for you (and I'm in no way criticizing the fact that it might be a problem for you) ... then empty the "joint" account and tell them you've changed your mind about how you wish to provide them assistance. I wouldn't make a big deal about it ~ I'd just empty/close the account and then matter-of-factly explain how the new system will work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 1:24:17 GMT -5
I think I remember your post from a while back. I can't remember what their problem is. I don't think they are on disability, just low earners who never saved any money? I'm sure that many us told you it was NOT a good idea based on our own personal experiences. Your DMIL and DFIL can't seem to live on a budget. How old are they? From your age I'm guessing in their late 50s early 60s? Honestly these should be peak earning times, not accepting charity from their kids. You can't help them until you understand their whole budget situation. You say you don't want to demand accounting records or spending habits but that's exactly what you're going to need to do because they are obviously living beyond their means. If you don't nip this problem in the bud ask yourself if you're willing to keep supporting them at this burn rate (and higher as inflation kicks in along with higher medical expenses) for 30 years. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars... Trust me you will resent it over time and it is likely to affect your marriage.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 26, 2011 8:54:07 GMT -5
Crone: I think you're probably exactly right on the temptation front. Part of the problem is that DFIL seems to be mostly in charge--he's always been a little impulsive and he's on medication that affects his impulse control. I suspect DMIL would do a better job, but with her anxiety issues I don't think it's a good idea to drag her into this... It would be difficult to have DH cosign checks; they're 2500 miles away! Molly: We're not overly particular about how it's spent, and we don't hold any resentment--we're just surprised and somewhat concerned about how fast it's going. Now taking suggestions about how to set up a new system while respecting their dignity! Bonn: They're 66 and 71 right now; DFIL had to take early retirement in his mid-fifties (factory worker) due to medical issues; DMIL retired around 64-65 (nurse practitioner) again due to anxiety. Not horribly low earners; they have a pension and SS, respectively, and I know DMIL has a 401k. I think it's a combination of not taking retirement planning quite as seriously as they might have, retiring earlier than expected, and getting caught with inflation--particularly health inflation. Then, too, DFIL might benefit from a session with the grocery hounds Gotta run for work--thanks all for the commentary!
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 26, 2011 9:19:15 GMT -5
Here is an idea for a joint account with DFIL. Set up a checking account for DH and you as owners and link it to a joint savings account with DFIL. Leave his account empty and then if needed transfer in money. Your account would have online access for DH so he could use bill payer to directly pay a few bills when he wanted to. So he could put in his parents doctor or other bill he might want to pay or put in a steady amount like $50 a month towards the power bill to reduce a monthly expense while not letting them see it as free power so they waste.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Apr 26, 2011 10:13:17 GMT -5
Is there a neutral third party like a financial planner for their retirement accounts or someone at consumer credit counseling who could get involved and set up a budget? If they have money in their 401K, why are they using your cash account?
I have to frequently help my dad with irregular expenses, but I expect him to ask each time. When we talked about it I explained that I expect him to cover his rent & utilities, food, gas, and regular prescriptions, etc. but I'll help with car repairs, irregular medical bills, etc. I also pay for his car insurance and phone because he's on my policies and those items would stretch his budget too thin. If he runs out of money and needs help with the regular expenses he needs to pay, then we need to have a conversation about it.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 26, 2011 10:20:25 GMT -5
What I will say might be a bit un-objective, bc I have huge anger and resentment issues with my IL's over money, but here it is:
FOR YEARS we send money to my IL's every month. I even increased amount over the years. Two years ago they received a large chunk of money in an inheritance, but we still send them the same amount every month. Then last yr we had to stop (due to some things in our lives).
This year my DH asked me if we are going to start again and I told him we can't afford to send as much as we did, but shouldn't they be OK for a bit, due to that inheritance? I found out that it's all gone and I realized that they are the kind of people that will spend everything that they have. When they were getting $200/mo from us, they spend it, when it was $300 - they spend it, when it was $400 - you get the pic.
So, I told my DH that I will be putting money away ever month in OUR acct as their EF, but I don't trust them with the money. We can't afford to just keep flushing down the toilet, bc it will never be enough.
May be they are the same way - it will never be enough. So, just do what you can afford and make sure they are OK health-wise, what else is there?
Lena
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 26, 2011 10:30:46 GMT -5
Remember the old book, Millionaire Next Door. They've got a chapter on this. It's called Economic Outpatient Care. It's all laid out, the good, bad and ugly.
Like a nice warm bath or a cold dip in the sea, you'll find that the body attunes to its environment.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 26, 2011 10:42:42 GMT -5
lurkyloo: I think it may be time for your DH and any siblings he may have to honestly look at whether or not his parents are honestly able to manage their money any more. Its an awful feeling to have, an trust me, no one wants to have that discussion but... Per you, due to his medication, DFIL has no impulse control and DMIL has major anxiety issues that make the whole family want to leave her out of money discussions. That says to me that medically, they are no longer able to handle their finances.
Maybe the answer is for you and DH to set aside an account for them, from which you can transfer money, but that they don't have every day access to. That way DMIL can know the money is there, but DFIL can't spend it on an impluse. This seems like the "easiest" solution - one that lets them maintain autonomy and still gives them an EF, but I think its just avoiding the real problem.
I think its time to look at estate planning- setting up a trust or some neutral third party to help manage their money, since you're too far away to do so effectively.
And I say this from a position of having been there. We have DPOA for the MIL's finances. Before we took over, she couldn't afford groceries and was paying hundreds each month in late and over draft fees. Now, she "pays" an extra $150+ a month just in rent to live near us (overall higher COLA), along with whatever more she pays in food and utility costs, and we are still able to save $700/month of her money to cover medical emergencies. It had nothing to do with not having enough money, and everything to do with her diminished capacity to understand money. (MIL has some brain damage from a major car accident that has mostly effected her ability to understand delayed or abstract cause and effect.)
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 26, 2011 11:03:43 GMT -5
lurky, I suspect that Lena is probably right. Your in-laws will eventually spend whatever money is available. Given their burn rate of $1K a month, do you have $360,000 to give to the in-laws over your MIL's life, which has a good probability of being 30 years?
Given your FIL's lack of impulse control, he may not be the best choice to manage finances. Why given him access to more money to mis-manage? If MIL is better, you could consider giving her a small emergency kitty of her own on a one time basis that is hers to manage, not FIL's.
Like yours, my in-laws have had problems managing their finances. This resulted in a bankruptcy when they were in their early 70's. (30 years of house payments, less than $10K of equity, and $100K+ of credit card debt.) In addition, I have a BIL who is mildly retarded, who gets himself into a financial jam every year or so, and has historically relied on my in-laws to bail him out. As a result of my FIL's inability to effectively handle their finances at this point in his life, my MIL has assumed control of all financial activities. In order to provide them some safety net, we keep about $2K in an account that my MIL has access to at the large bank where we bank. The bit of money provides some assurance that there is an EF. Having the account at our bank allows us to transfer money in a few minutes, if necessary, even though the in-laws and BIL live about 2,000 miles away.
Challenging situation. I think I'd move toward trying to understand where the in-laws money goes and limiting the amount of support that you provide. Maybe your in-laws need the wake up call that bankruptcy provided for my FIL and MIL. If their spending is reasonable, and they just can't live on their own income, I think you'll feel better about providing some support if you are comfortable they are managing their finances effectively.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Apr 26, 2011 13:37:15 GMT -5
I have been in a situation of helping my in-laws off and on for a while as well. I don't think we have our situation fully under control, but here's my two cents. I don't think my MIL is responsible to handle an emergancy fund properly - if she had one, it would be gone in months on not-quite emergancies. It may be that when they saw the money there, they didn't quite realize what it was intended for, or they could just not have enough self control to have an emergancy fund. In your shoes, I would likely keep the emergancy fund in my name and when they needed money, transfer a certain amount to their bank account. This might make it so that they don't see the money sitting there - ready to be spent. If it does look like they need money on a monthly basis, setting up an auto transfer for a certain amount to their account could also be a good way of helping out.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 26, 2011 13:47:05 GMT -5
Your parents are relatively young to be depending on their children. And it's really nice that your DH and you want to help them. But it sounds as if they are the type that cannot leave "emergency funds" for genuine emergencies. Property taxes are not an emergency. You know when they are due. However, since the account is a joint account (DH, DMIL, DFIL) they may well resent it if you say, "you know, that money is just for medical emergencies".....
Right now, it appears to me that you have (with the best intentions) created a situation where they are now used to $1000/mo that they did not have before. What's going to happen when the account is empty? Do you plan to refill it? Can you afford to do this for the next 20-30 years? And meet your own goals?
Their apparent inability to live within a budget seems to be the basic problem. And I doubt that there is much you can do about that. I know you said you are going to pay off their mortgage, but what guarantee do you have that they won't go out and refinance it to pull out the equity?
I really think you'd be doing better by your inlaws by backing off... (I'd give the same advice to a parent helping their adult children)
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 26, 2011 22:36:59 GMT -5
Snerd: Have I mentioned lately how delightfully apropos I find your avatar? ;D
Lena: Considering your personal experience, I think your post is remarkably circumspect.
A bit of background: DFIL was actively poor growing up, and at the age of 18 had to go find a job to support his mother and six younger sisters when his father died. I suppose in retrospect it's not really surprising that his money attitude is different from mine (white-collar parents with a Depression-era mindset). Also, I lost my maternal grandmother to complications from heatstroke, caused because she didn't want to run up her electric bill by running the air conditioner. I'm willing to go to some lengths to avoid that sort of saving-at-the-cost-of-causing-health-problems mindset. I'm also highly sympathetic to anxiety and depression, though I've never had anxiety bad enough to cause extreme nausea requiring hospital stays and IV nutrition, as DMIL experienced. I do think she's a prime candidate for talk therapy, but she's chosen to go the (legal) pharmaceutical route instead--we (me, DH, SIL and even FIL) are worried about the number of drugs she's taking as well, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
Anyway, setting up a medical EF for them doesn't seem to have worked as hoped. We'll hold off on doing anything until DH has a chance to find out what's going on. At that point, we'll decide on the best course of action going forward. We'll certainly consider setting up an emergency kitty in MIL's name, or transferring sums on an as-needed basis into the joint account. I can't imagine we'd empty the joint account (all $2K that's left!) for the sake of making a point, but I don't think we'll be refilling it without some in-depth discussions about expectations, and some answers as to where the first $8K has gone.
I'm not sorry we tried it this way, although I'll probably wonder for a while if we could have been clearer on our expectations. There could still be an innocent explanation, they get the benefit of the doubt until we talk to them.
I can't let the economic outpatient comment go without pointing out that giving someone money doesn't automatically turn them into good-for-nothing handout addicts. My parents opened a mutual account fund in my name in my early twenties and regularly dumped chunks of money in there; I never thought of dipping into it for living expenses, even living on an 18K grad stipend in a HCOL city.
Finally, we actually are prepared to step up and supplement income to the tune of $12K or so per year...but we really hadn't expected that to come up unless/until one of them passed on and the other was faced with a reduced income stream. And obviously, it's no fun to be careful with your money just to enable someone else to be careless with it.
Thanks again for all the commentary; it's given me a lot to chew over.
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morrisr2d2
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Post by morrisr2d2 on Apr 27, 2011 6:43:41 GMT -5
I personally wouldn't be paying past medical bills - aren't they dischargeable in bankruptcy?
My mother is an LPN, has 10 of thousands in debt, lives paycheck to paycheck and has maybe $100 left over in the bank at anytime. In the past she has asked me to pay medical bills for her to get creditors off her back and not go to court, but I refused because she doesn't have dime, and her paycheck is so low already that a judge won't be able to garnish very much wages. I won't throw money at bills that can be discharged in bankruptcy. Instead I've taken the tack of paying her rent once or twice a year when she's in a bind, and making sure she has food on the table, and letting her know she is loved and can always have a room in my house if she chooses. And she'll have medicaid and medicare to fall on.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 6:52:31 GMT -5
You really subsidize your in-laws a grand a month? And will continue to do so? Who is going to subsidize you when the time comes because you were busy bailing out spendthrifts? That ask for MORE after pissing away 8k. Unreal. Am I the only one who thinks this is insane? How do normal above average intelligent people get "hooked" like this? Do you realize there are people out there that no matter how much they make and are "subsidized" by others, will never have enough? Will spend every penny they have and more besides? I have an EX and a DD who have the same "values." And keep asking for more. You betcha they get mad when the money fountain gets turned off. That, in itself, should make you wonder. Not another dime until the 8k is accounted for and not another dime unless you and DH agree it IS an actual need not a want and it's a need not because they spent their own money on WANTS not NEEDS cuz they knew you were "good for it." I think the idea of you want money from me I want to go over your finances and draw up a budget for you is a good one. You want handouts? Then I have a say in how you spend your money. That usually shuts up the leeches.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 27, 2011 10:37:23 GMT -5
(psst--zibanski--they haven't ASKED for anything. what we give is freely given. we're not dealing with entitlement here so much as apparent poor money management skills (inability to leave an EF alone) and we're holding off judgement (also further subsidies) until we actually talk to them. but thanks for your opinion.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 10:42:10 GMT -5
Ah, sorry about that. It's very easy to blow 8k and then some for a lot of people and also to a lot of people that's A LOT of money. But if you two are satisfied with how they spent it and choose to add more, then so be it. But you did state that FIL asked you when you'd start the "allowance" again. What kind of people ask other people for money to begin with? I'd get a JOB before I'd ask my kids for money.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Apr 28, 2011 7:53:50 GMT -5
It's really hard for me to understand how a parent could ask for money from their children. My parents lived paycheck to paycheck, in later years they contributed to a 401k and IRA. They would have gone hungry before they asked us to help. The only time we helped financially was when my father was diagnosed with cancer. Suddenly at the end of the year when property taxes were due (they had the money) and right before Christmas (gifts were already bought). Mom took a leave of absence but no money coming in. Myself and my siblings put money in a cabinet every week so my mom could go to her employer and pay their health insurance. We would just open the door and lay it in there. I never questioned when the others put their money in there and they didn't question me. We never directly handed it to mom, how embarrassing would that have been. My parents had helped us out sssoooo many times, there was never a question whether we would help or not.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 28, 2011 8:04:51 GMT -5
I can't imagine it either and yet, reading others posts, it seems expected and demanded by some parents. I don't believe it's a cultural thing. I believe they figure someone "owes" them. I feel I did a good job as a parent if my kids can support themselves. The idea of them supporting me is ludicrous. I'd starve first or GET A JOB. Early retirement, my ass. The resentment it generates on both sides isn't worth it and it isn't like anyone is ever grateful. No, indeed, they get mad if the gravy train stops!!!
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Apr 28, 2011 8:14:09 GMT -5
I asked my mom last year if she would ask any of us if she ever needed any help. She said 'I don't need any help.' She totally avoided my question. She was diagnosed with cancer a month later.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 28, 2011 10:27:04 GMT -5
You want to hear something? I could understand it. I always thought that it is child's responsibility to take care of his parents in older years. Well, my believes slightly changed after I met my IL's
My DH was sending them money when he had zero income and was living off student loans. Those student loans were private and accruing anywhere between 6% to 9% interest. He told me that "they didn't want the money, but he insisted". I told him to cut the BS bc when people don't want to take the money, they don't cash your monthly checks.
When we got married, we were paying about $300/month of INTEREST on those SL's.
Some people are just like that, selfish and inconsiderate. My DH thinks that his parents are GREAT parents. I don't agree and I don't get it, but I guess not everything in this world is meant for me to get.
Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 28, 2011 10:54:18 GMT -5
I think you guys are incredible to help them like this. But there is something to be said for autonomy and responsibility.
Supplementing their income by $10k per year is exceedingly generous. I don't think you should offer more than that. They need to work it into their budget and be thinking in terms of "when it's gone, it's gone." If they know you will replenish the honeypot every time it dries up, they have no incentive to plan ahead - and why shouldn't they take a few thousand out here and there when they don't need it for emergencies but they just need something a little "extra"?
Like I said, you guys are wonderful to do this for them. Someday DF and I plan to take care of my own parents in much the same way. But as you said yourself, there need to be boundaries in place.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 28, 2011 10:56:51 GMT -5
But, I have to ask why you are so concerned about this as well? They apparently have managed to get through life themselves. And, it isn't really your choice whether to call an ambulance , but theirs. They have to make decisions on their own healthcare.
SF, I agree they should have gotten their financial house together a long time ago, but it's a bit cold to say that she shouldn't be concerned. What is she supposed to do, watch her husband's parents die slowly and painfully with no help or care whatsoever because they didn't save for it when she and her husband have the ability to help?
I'm as much in favor of personal responsibility as the next person but what's done is done, and love sometimes dictates that you don't do the smart financial thing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 28, 2011 11:22:18 GMT -5
You know what? People don't starve and they don't lose their house. They become smarter with their choices when good choices are rewarded and bad choices punished. No incentive whatsoever to not spend because spending doesn't cost them anything but pride and obviously, they have none.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 28, 2011 11:35:53 GMT -5
Yeah but it's your parents... I mean, my parents are extremely frugal and there's no way in the world they would ever take advantage of us. If they ever say they need anything from me - they've got it, no questions asked. And it's easy for me to say that because they're responsible people and they probably never WILL ask.
But... if my mom was the most irresponsible woman on the planet with money... she's still my mom, and I'd still help her.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 28, 2011 11:44:57 GMT -5
You know, I've been thinking about that. My IL's went through 3 BK's, and kept refinancing their house to the point that 30 yrs after they bought it, they still have 25 yrs left on their mortgage.
My DH has been helping them for the last 20 yrs and it didn't help at all. Now, for the first time they are not getting any "extra" money (even though they just went through a good chunk of inheritance money)
I am really curious to see what they will be doing this year - back to only having pension and that's it. Will they start using cc's again? Ask us for cash?
I am having a very hard time believing that after 50 yrs of irresponsibility they will "see the light". People don't change, especially at that age.
Lena
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cael
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Post by cael on Apr 28, 2011 11:45:39 GMT -5
Firebird kudos to you (and everyone else who financially helps/supports their parents)... Sir's mother *is* the most irresponsible woman on the planet and we would drop dead before financially supporting her. That sounds so cold and super horrible of us, but, without getting into the whole situation, yeah, we'd drop dead first. His sister has loaned money to mom before and it never gets paid back and is never used responsibly, and she continues to make poor choices; sister is absolutely done with helping her. Mom is also just a miserable person to boot. My father has a state pension coming when he retires, but my mother never had any kind of retirement plan she contributed to but, she probably realized that after her mother & stepfather were gone, she'd be taken care of. And she is. I don't know what I'd do if they ever came to us for money... frankly it'll never happen though! All I know is we make sure to contribute to retirement so we won't need to rely on our children or anyone/anything else when we retire.
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dancinmama
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Posts: 10,659
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Post by dancinmama on Apr 28, 2011 11:54:52 GMT -5
This is such a sticky situation. I don't want to hijack the thread, but we are we are experiencing something similar - not with money, but with time.
My dad passed away (3) years ago. My mom is VERY intelligent and is in good health; but since my dad died she has become more and more dependent upon my siblings and me in almost every way - except finances.
Don't get me wrong. We don't mind helping her when she needs help; but she is beginning to ask for help with things that she can easily manage on her own - she just chooses not to.
Example: The only way that we could get her to get a cell phone (we wanted her to have one for emergencies) was to put her on our family plan. I got a letter from our carrier that they were going to a 4G network and our phones which were 2G needed to be traded in (at their expense) for 3G phones. My mom and I always get the same and simplest to operate type of phone - that way we can help her out over the phone if she can't figure something out (we live 45 minutes away). Anyway, I told her that I was going to be sending her the letter. All she needed to do was take it to her AT&T store (I told her where in her town it was located), give it to them, and request the phone (I wrote the make and model number at the top of the letter). She INSISTED that I go to the AT&T store with her. It was totally unnecessary, but I did do it. We went in, gave them the letter, ordered her phone - it went slick as snot; no problems.
I am afraid, however, that the more we allow her to be dependent on us for things that she really can take care of on her own, the worse it is going to get cuz there will come a time (and it really could be any day) when she might really need our help.
It's not like she has no social life. She is involved in a retiree's group, a woman's club, and a garden group and she interacts with her neighbors on a regular basis, so it's not as if she is isolated with no social life.
It's not such a big deal for me because I don't live in the same town, but it's driving my brother and sister NUTS.
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whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 28, 2011 12:00:32 GMT -5
Dancinmama, it sounds like your mom needs her family around, with all the social life on the planet, she might be feeling very lonely, especially if she has spend her life with someone by her side.
Lena
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