Perspective needed...helping parents

[dancinmama]

Apr 28, 2011 12:00:32 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Dancinmama, it sounds like your mom needs her family around, with all the social life on the planet, she might be feeling very lonely, especially if she has spend her life with someone by her side.

Lena

I know; we realize that. We all WANT to spend time with her (and do on a regular basis) and want to help her when she REALLY needs help, but we all have other obligations (work, children, grandchildren, sick in-laws) - other demands on our time that make it impossible to give her as much attention as she seems to want.

[whoisjohngalt]

That's tough, I hope things get better

[dancinmama]

Apr 28, 2011 12:51:39 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

That's tough, I hope things get better

It really breaks my heart because I KNOW that she is lonely, but we can only do what we can do.

[tskeeter]

I am afraid, however, that the more we allow her to be dependent on us for things that she really can take care of on her own, the worse it is going to get

Dancin, I saw exactly that happen with my Mom. She always liked to be taken care of and catered to (she got a driver's license only because Dad refused to chauffeur her around any longer). After a stroke, she became more and more dependent on Dad to assist her. When Dad had aged to the point that he couldn't provide the assistance Mom "required", Dad told her she was going to have to move into an assisted care facility to get the assistance she needed. When faced with the prospect of assisted care, rather than living at home, Mom was suddenly able to do things on her own that she hadn't been able to do for years.

I think there are a couple of things going on. Mom wants you to come and visit, so she has things she "needs" you to do. The other thing is that it's easier for Mom if you just take care of things she really doesn't want to be bothered with.

It may come down to drawing a line in the sand. For example, if Mom refuses to hire someone to take care of the yard, etc., you might have to tell her that you can't do it, so it is time to think about selling the house and moving into a senior complex.

As a counterpoint, physically able people do get to the point where complex decisions become overwhelming or they develop a fear of being taken advantage of that prevents them from doing what they need to do. I saw this when my parents house needed a new roof. Dad wanted to put another band-aid on it instead of having the roof replaced (money was not an issue). To press the issue of doing the job right so it would last and protect the house for many years, my sister contacted roofers and arranged for quotes on replacing the roof. When presented with the best three quotes, Dad picked up the ball, selected the roofer he wanted and got the job done. I think that at 80, Dad was just not capable of getting the process started. But, when presented a more limited array of options with some basic information from contractors that had been screened by my sister, he was able to make a decision.

[bobbysgirl]

Apr 26, 2011 10:55:25 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Even though these are his parents and her inlaws, they have to want to do those things. They have a right to spend their money however they please without interference. They have the right as adults to make decisions with their money and even the right to make poor decisions that they don't agree with. And, they may even choose to fritter away most of their money in a wasteful manner. But, that is their choice to do so. And, you have to be very careful about going in and assuming you have some say in their finances. Because you don't unless they agree to it.

[bobbysgirl]

Apr 28, 2011 13:02:30 GMT -5 dancinmama said:

Apr 28, 2011 12:51:39 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

That's tough, I hope things get better

It really breaks my heart because I KNOW that she is lonely, but we can only do what we can do.

DANCIN: Your story is breaking my heart. I know how your mom feels, but she will never move forward by clutching on to the past. She's holding on to her mate the only way she can. This isn't healthy for her. I'm not saying it's not difficult, because believe me it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I can't be of any help to anyone if I cling onto my dear DH. I have his memory, so does your mom.

Let her know how much you love her and what a great mom she was/is. Talk to her on the phone every day for a few minutes. When she asks things of you that are stressful, say no in a polite and respectful manner. If you so desire explain to her that your plate is full and you would be happy to help her find an alternate (something, anything) to solve her problem. If your siblings did the same thing, there would be a united front. She can move forward in her grief process and be healthier for it.

A little story: This winter was so bad. The snow was coming down faster than it could be plowed. DS was trying to keep up with it (probably not as much as he could have) but worked too. This was the first time I called my daughter. The shovel just wasn't doing it. My SinL came right over with his plow and bailed me out. I just cried and cried as he hugged me.

My problem? DH would have kept up on the snow and he wasn't here to do it. I felt helpless. SinL taught me how to use the snowblower and I felt empowered to care for myself. I took a step forward, even though it was painful.

I don't count on my kids for too much. I do have one weakness they help me with. But they have lots on their plates and I am happy to see they are doing well and working hard to accomplish things.

It's not my intention to high jack the thread, but your story hit home and I hope I can help you see things from her perspective. Or add a new perspective.

[lurkyloo]

UPDATE: So, DH had a couple of talks with FIL while he and MIL were out visiting this past week. First off, apparently this year they're transitioning from his retiree health plan to Medicare (or possibly vice versa, I'm not real clear on which way and why) and apparently that's creating some temporary squeezes for them. Secondly, while part of the $8K went for worthy-but-not-emergent causes (the 2K or possibly 4K in property taxes, 1K on a car repair (that was the cheapest quote FIL got)) it sounds like the rest of it probably did go to medical costs. Again, some of them likely not technically emergencies, but whatever. MIL signed up for concierge service from her doctor ($1500 up front, but apparently that covers office visits, etc. and they forward Medicare reimbursements back to her); sounds like they've had more ER visits which are $300 OOP right now and their prescriptions run $300 or more per month. Etc.

So going forward, the plan is as follows! FIL thinks that disappearing the monthly mortgage bill will make living on their income a reasonable proposition. The mortgage (28K & change) is apparently only in MIL's name, so DH & I will pay off $26K of it, and MIL/FIL will pull the remaining 2.5K or so out of her 401k. DH pointed out to his dad that that would max us out on giving for the year tax-wise and they shouldn't expect any more money to appear in the EF account--but that we could pay their medical bills directly, if necessary, and that wouldn't count towards a gift tax. (Yes, I'm aware there's a hole in that logic, but this gives us a graceful way of exercising boundaries!) FIL also plans to divert some of the freed-up mortgage money back to the EF to replenish it--that would be great, we will do our darnedest not to keep track.

FWIW, I do think MIL is having some trouble coming to terms with being a retiree on SS rather than a member of the workforce with more disposable income. But, she's doing *so* much better healthwise than she was at Christmas! Then, we had to bring takeout home because she didn't have the energy to go out for dinner; she was usually tired and often confused. This visit she was a lot more perky and awake, and participated in things like going out to eat, winery visits, strawberry picking, and a 2-mile walk. It was really good to see her acting more like herself.

Thanks again to everyone for the kind words, encouragement, and constructive criticism. And of course, feel free to hijack away! God knows when it comes to aging, the money aspect is the easy bit.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I'm glad you and/or DH had good talks with them and are coming to a better understanding.

[Frugal Nurse]

I think it is great that you and your DH are able and willing to help out his parents like you do. I know I will never be able to pay off anyone's mortgage, but I hope that by the time our parents are unable to care for themselves, that we will be in a position to help them. I'm glad that you were able to get to the bottom of the spending and have worked out a plan that is best for everyone. Karma to you for being a generous person.

[lurkyloo]

Thanks, FN!

To their generation, family ties are no joke. One of his uncles returned for another tour in Vietnam so another uncle (with two little kids) wouldn't be drafted We stop short of that, for sure!

[qofcc]

lurkyloo... I know your heart is in the right place, I've been helping my dad with emergency money for many years and providing him with extras like car insurance and a phone, etc. Now that he's in the hospital after his car accident it looks like he might be eligible for Assisted Living after his rehab, paid for by Medicaid if he's determined eligible for nursing home care because of his medical condition but physically able to be in assisted living. This assisted living apartment complex was really nice. Not top-of-the-line fancy like some places they advertised, but the layout reminded me of one of the newer Hampton Inn & Suites hotels. They have weekly maid services and all of the utilities and meals are included, plus the apartments have a kitchen, bedroom, living room and handicapped accessible bathroom. They have nurses on staff that check every day to make sure everyone is taking their medicine and going to their doctor appointments and eating healthy food. The workers drive them weekly to the bank, grocery store, library, etc as well as optional (extra priced) trips to the mall, movies, museums, restaurants, etc. Some of the residents are able to drive and keep their cars there and if they are able to, they can come and go as they please just like at home. The regular price is about $3k/mo for 1 person or $4k/mo for a couple (or parent/child), but the price can be much less if a person is on a limited income. The idea is that it's much cheaper for Medicaid to pay for someone to stay in one of these places than a nursing home and couples can continue to live together even if only one has medical issues. Some of the residents are younger in their 60's like my dad. They're telling me they need to look back at my dad's income & expenses for the past 6 years. By giving money to your inlaws, you might be postponing the time when they could afford to do something like that. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but it's something you might want to to look into. I had no idea how nice these places were or that they could be affordable to someone with little income. They had also told me that some of the really nice places, if you can pay for 2 years before you run out of money then you can stay on assistance later.

[lurkyloo]

qofcc: Thanks for the perspective--that definitely sounds like something we need to be aware of. Are gifts counted in income? I assume assets (e.g. the house) would be as well (it's probably worth 150-170K or so; our contribution is obviously a fraction of that). Sounds like directly paying medical bills might be a better approach to avoid that kind of lookback?

[qofcc]

When the financial counselor at the hospital completed the medicaid application with me there was a section where we had to list gifts and other support from family, but I'm not sure how that's counted. I think you would be best off finding an elder care financial planner and getting some professional advice. The basic idea is that they should deplete all of their own money first. If they could sell their house and private pay initially, then medicaid would take over when their assets ran out or the facility may take their SS income as payment in full, but it needs to be planned correctly. good luck.

[lurkyloo]

Update the second: DH transferred the 26K to the mortgage last Wednesday, and DMIL/FIL withdrew 1K or so from her 401k to cover the remainder (the total turned out to be 26.9K or so). After a dint of trying, the servicing bank finally confirmed the payments were processed and the loan is indeed closed out. So that's taken care of...

...in the meantime, they've had a couple of unforeseen events, including a triply flooded basement from the heavy rains, and hitting a telephone pole (they're okay, car has minor mostly cosmetic damage, no word on the telephone pole). Y'know, the kinds of things that a 10K emergency fund would've been really helpful in dealing with. DH offered to pay bills directly if they forwarded them; offer was declined. Sounded like they've charged those expenses and will redirect the mortgage payment to the credit cards until those are paid off.

I talked to MIL earlier today, and she's frustrated enough with the flooding problems that she's once again talking about selling and moving to a condo. I really, really hope she talks to and listens to FIL about that one; I don't think he wants to give up his garden and having to give up his pets as well is going to break his heart. (He's the one handling all the cleanup, FYI.) But, it's their decision to make.

[qofcc]

I talked to MIL earlier today, and she's frustrated enough with the flooding problems that she's once again talking about selling and moving to a condo. I really, really hope she talks to and listens to FIL about that one; I don't think he wants to give up his garden and having to give up his pets as well is going to break his heart. (He's the one handling all the cleanup, FYI.) But, it's their decision to make.

Lots of senior communities encourage pets. They even bring them in from pet shelters to visit. I was at the nursing home where my dad is doing his rehab and there was a cat curled up in bed with the lady in the next room.

Your FIL can also take up container gardening on a stand in front of a window or on a patio. There are always articles about apartment dwellers in NYC who grow their own food.

The point is that they can find a way to modify their lives instead of totally giving things up.

[commentator]

Every time an in-law take money out of that joint account a completed gift is made to the in-law drawing the money. Depending on other facts, once that amount exceeds $13,000 in a year, a gift tax return is required.

Amounts paid directly to another's health care providers (including pharmacies for prescription drugs but NOT including insurance companies) are not gifts for federal gift tax purposes. (Same is true for tuition payments directly to an educational institution.)

[TheOtherMe]

Glad you and DH husband were able to talk rational to his parents. Karma for you.

It is difficult to change your habits from what you were making when you were in the work force to living on something like SS only.

I have looked at some 55+ communities and they all would have allowed my cat. When I took the tours, I saw residents with their dogs. Pets are good for mental health is the attitude that I was told. I'm not ready to go to one of these kinds of places yet, but when I do, I hope I can take my cat with me.

My mother was hospitalized with pneumonia last October for 11 days. They were so worried that the stay would break them. Turned out their out of pocket costs were $400 because their own health insurance isn't the best. The therapy and nursing care my mom received at home was totally covered. Now they get meals on wheels and have somebody cleaning every other week for an hour.

We are trying to talk my dad out of doing his own mowing. He's 87 and is on his second pacemaker. Mom says he doesn't want to do it, but, again, is afraid of the cost. My sister and I have both told them not to worry about our inheritance because that is their usual answer. We would rather they enjoy what time they have left rather than him having a heart attack while mowing the lawn.

[lurkyloo]

qofcc: They may well be able to keep the dog, although MIL's sister currently has her own downsizing plans on hold because she can't find a setup that will allow her dog. MIL and DH both think, though, that downsizing to a condo would mean getting rid of the parrots--the birds need at least a small room to themselves. They've had the birds for 12-20 years. And going to a container garden from having 0.1 acre of dedicated garden (including a largeish grape arbor and his cherry tree, both of which he uses to make his own wine, which is another space-consuming hobby they likely won't have room for)...It's a lot to give up, and I'd hate to see him pressured into it for what MIL sees as a magical fix. Like I said, it's not my decision, but it should be half FIL's.

commentator: Thanks for the heads-up, I didn't realize that. Does it make a difference that FIL has made a few deposits as well? I think we're good anyway; we already needed to file the gift tax form to reflect that the 26K is a joint gift from the two of us formally to MIL since the mortgage was only in her name. We still have 26K of space that can be formally given to FIL (he's the one withdrawing from the account) though I'm not entirely sure what to do about Christmas gifts for MIL--send them a week late, perhaps?

theotherme: Thanks! One of the issues I keep mentally butting up against is that they're just not that old--66 and 71. You're lucky to have a dad still able to push a lawnmower at 87 (though I agree that whether it's a good idea is a whole 'nother question!)

[debtheaven]

ACK I deleted my post by accident.

So here's the short version: many parrots live to 100 years or more. At some point, your ILs will probably have to pass them onto somebody else, whether they downsize now or in 10 years or more. Parrots are one of the few animals that nearly always outlive their owners.

Best of luck to you.

[bring in the new year]

Zibanziski,

They do lose their houses and they do go hungry.

I see both sides of this argument. Some of my family is excellent with money and very frugal and some - well not so much. But I don't think we should downplay the consequences of what happens to people in their sixties and seventies if they're not careful.

Because my mother was terrible with money and my father little better I have a certain sympathy with all of you who don't want to be responsible for careless people. But my parent's carelessness in many ways came from both generous hearts and a non money attitude. My mother didn't notice what things cost. According to my grandmother she didn't notice when she was six and she didn't notice when she was 46. If she had it, you had it. If she needed it, she did without. She never asked anyone else for money but she never really understood how to budget or to save it.

And she worked very hard. My entire childhood she worked longer hours than anyone else I knew.

So because of that, and because she died young, I can't help feeling that people are being unfair to these people. It doesn't sound like her IL went out of their way to ask for this money, they're just not good with it. That doesn't mean they're bad people, it doesn't mean they're destructive or mean or any of hundred other things.

It just means they're bad with money.

And if you can't put some money aside to help your parents, what good is it?

My aunt's biggest regret is that she didn't take some money and do something nice for my grandparents or my mother when they were still alive. Mine is that both of my parents were dead by the time I was making good money.

I think a lot of excellent suggestions have been made about how to budget or help them budget the money better. Lurky, I hope everything goes well.

[Deleted]

May 11, 2011 22:47:11 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

MIL signed up for concierge service from her doctor ($1500 up front, but apparently that covers office visits, etc. and they forward Medicare reimbursements back to her);

That's not how concierge care typically works. It's more of a promise to limit the size of the practice so the doc is more accessible, runs on time, can spend more time answering your questions, etc. It does not cover office visits or treatments. I could be wrong in the case of this particular doctor. I agree that this is a non-emergency expenditure and would probably put it in the luxury category unless MIL had many chronic health issues, the doctor was superb, and she didn't have time to sit in waiting rooms.

[april47]

bridgetc=

I like your last post. Just because a person's parents were not always careful of their money doesn't make them the scum of the earth to be igored by the roadside in their old age. It was a different world then for one thing. Many parents that didn't save for their own retirement spent years sacrificing their own pleasures but couldn't resist giving their kids what ever they could. Maybe they couldn't say no to those piano lessons or vacation to Disney. This doesn't mean they are bad people. Look at the whole picture. Are they parents who neglected the kids and went to bars and beat you? Or were they loving parents with poor money management skills?