Sub Implosion Lawsuit

[billisonboard]

The setup: Crew of Titan sub knew they were going to die before implosion, according to more than $50M lawsuit

The family of a French explorer who died in a submersible implosion has filed a more than $50 million lawsuit, saying the crew experienced “terror and mental anguish” before the disaster and accusing the sub’s operator of gross negligence.

...

Known as “Mr. Titanic,” Nargeolet participated in 37 dives to the Titanic site, the most of any diver in the world, according to the lawsuit. 

If I were on the jury: I would want some proof that this very experienced adventurer would react to impending death negatively rather than with acceptance and grace before awarding a buch of money.

[Opti]

Aug 8, 2024 12:23:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The setup: Crew of Titan sub knew they were going to die before implosion, according to more than $50M lawsuit

The family of a French explorer who died in a submersible implosion has filed a more than $50 million lawsuit, saying the crew experienced “terror and mental anguish” before the disaster and accusing the sub’s operator of gross negligence.

...

Known as “Mr. Titanic,” Nargeolet participated in 37 dives to the Titanic site, the most of any diver in the world, according to the lawsuit. 

If I were on the jury: I would want some proof that this very experienced adventurer would react to impending death negatively rather than with acceptance and grace before awarding a buch of money.

They knew it wasn't 100 percent safe, other than that, it will be interesting as to what the "proof" is and how the court looks at it.

[billisonboard]

I am no expert on the exact legal stuff so this will all just be personal perspective from someone who has done some adventure activities (ziplines, bungee jumps, parachuting) and built/managed a challenge course with high elements. 

I see multiple layers to consider. First is basic risk. I have told groups "People have died in bed when a tree fell through their roof and people have died hitting their head when they slipped on something getting out of bed, so we take our chances getting up or staying in bed" Everything has risk so people have to make choices and accept some risk. Then there are factors which increase or decrease risk, some we control and others we don’t. Those controlled by others we should be aware of at some level and can make choices accordingly. Then there is the consequences which flow from taking risks, positive and negative.

With this particular event, yes there was inherent higher risk taking the trip. People made the free choice to do it. Since it was a hired trip, others were in control to decrease or increase the risk. If they were neglect in working to minimize that risk, that is significant. Death was the ultimate consequence here but the interim consequence of dealing with the knowledge death was inevitable also factors in.

Specifically with this one individual. I think it is reasonable to expect him to know that repeated trips increased the odds something would eventually go wrong. Also being extremely experienced, I think it is reasonable for him to have an increased level of awareness as to the potential issues with those running the program. As far has his reaction when things did start to go bad, I think it is reasonable to expect him to not suffer extremely negative emotions. Those things mitigate in my mind a fair final settlement in a lawsuit.

[obelisk]

Nargeolet was part of the titan crew and not a paid customer.  He very well knew the risks since he participated in having the customers sign the paperwork that held the company non responsible in case of a disaster.  He knew the risks involved better than all the paid customers on board.  His family is looking for a pay day that will not likely become due to his involvement with the titan sub.

[billisonboard]

Aug 9, 2024 4:46:34 GMT -5 obelisk said:

Nargeolet was part of the titan crew and not a paid customer.  He very well knew the risks since he participated in having the customers sign the paperwork that held the company non responsible in case of a disaster.  He knew the risks involved better than all the paid customers on board.  His family is looking for a pay day that will not likely become due to his involvement with the titan sub.

Didn't realize he was actually crew. Thanks for informing me.

[Tennesseer]

billisonboard - refresh my memory.  Hasn't it already been determined death was almost instantaneous for this on board.  At worst, it was probably an incomplete 'Huh?' and that was it.

[billisonboard]

Aug 9, 2024 9:55:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

billisonboard - refresh my memory.  Hasn't it already been determined death was almost instantaneous for this on board.  At worst, it was probably an incomplete 'Huh?' and that was it.

I am nervous about commenting on this but will give what I think for you to consider. I see two stages. While it is suggested by experts that the implosion was a split second event, things were going poorly prior to it happening. I think the implication in the lawsuit is there was "terror and mental anguish" from loss of communications and power; "OH my God, We are going to die!!!" happening for an extended time - and then they instantly did. Like I said, very much just my take on it.

[tallguy]

Regardless of whether there was a time component where those on board may have felt "terror and mental anguish", it is still entirely speculative that they did.  More importantly, why would anyone NOT on board at the time and going through that expect to be compensated for that aspect?  Or is this merely an attempt to impassion a jury to award more money? 

[billisonboard]

Aug 9, 2024 11:03:27 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Regardless of whether there was a time component where those on board may have felt "terror and mental anguish", it is still entirely speculative that they did.  More importantly, why would anyone NOT on board at the time and going through that expect to be compensated for that aspect?  Or is this merely an attempt to impassion a jury to award more money? 

We are talking about an individual who was 77 year old at the time of his death. He apparently had a late in life second wife who was a childhood friend so she has to be a similar age. No indication his children were dependent on him. So very little in tangible losses to justify a large dollar lawsuit. So, yeah, need to play on emotion.

[tallguy]

So another reason why damage awards should never be left to juries.  Got it.

[happyhoix]

Umm, yeah, he was a crew member. He had to know the risks and the worst case scenario.

He didn’t like those risks, he could have stayed at home.

[djAdvocate]

well, i am not sure "like" is the right word.

he took them, and put his life at risk for it.
and he paid dearly.

we all weigh the risk of what we do, every day.
some take more risk than others.

[Tiny]

Aug 9, 2024 9:55:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

billisonboard - refresh my memory.  Hasn't it already been determined death was almost instantaneous for this on board.  At worst, it was probably an incomplete 'Huh?' and that was it.

One of the articles I read about this case was that the people on the sub spent some time knowing things were not going well... like when the power cut out and they more or less couldn't do anything other than sink.   The article also proposed that there was noise from the hull as the failure began.  My personal belief is they didn't suffer much physical discomfort before the catastrophic failure, but I suspect there was some fear/tension in the time leading up to it (I'd say especially for the tourists on board for whom this was a first experience.)      I'm guessing the other on board who had done this many times - had probably experienced some difficulties in the past (power loss? something else) but managed to recover. 

I wonder if for Nargeolet (and the others who had taken this trip many times in the past) if it was like the "Ah, shit" moments when you know/see something bad happening to yourself as you are doing something (like driving and your car slides into traffic/or off the road or on a ladder and you feel the ladder slide/give way or holding something  you just pulled out of the oven and you can feel it slipping...)    Not sure what it was like for the 2 passengers who got to watch/hear the others having their "Ah, shit" moment...   

That said,  I'm not sure how I feel about Nargeolet's family's law suit.     Was he complicit in the gross negligence?  Was he misled into belief it was safe?  

[Tennesseer]

Aug 13, 2024 15:48:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Aug 9, 2024 9:55:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

billisonboard - refresh my memory.  Hasn't it already been determined death was almost instantaneous for this on board.  At worst, it was probably an incomplete 'Huh?' and that was it.

One of the articles I read about this case was that the people on the sub spent some time knowing things were not going well... like when the power cut out and they more or less couldn't do anything other than sink.   The article also proposed that there was noise from the hull as the failure began.  My personal belief is they didn't suffer much physical discomfort before the catastrophic failure, but I suspect there was some fear/tension in the time leading up to it (I'd say especially for the tourists on board for whom this was a first experience.)      I'm guessing the other on board who had done this many times - had probably experienced some difficulties in the past (power loss? something else) but managed to recover. 

I wonder if for Nargeolet (and the others who had taken this trip many times in the past) if it was like the "Ah, shit" moments when you know/see something bad happening to yourself as you are doing something (like driving and your car slides into traffic/or off the road or on a ladder and you feel the ladder slide/give way or holding something  you just pulled out of the oven and you can feel it slipping...)    Not sure what it was like for the 2 passengers who got to watch/hear the others having their "Ah, shit" moment...   

That said,  I'm not sure how I feel about Nargeolet's family's law suit.     Was he complicit in the gross negligence?  Was he misled into belief it was safe?  

Passenger and crew suffering for sure in this plane incident thread I started a few days ago.

Brazil Plane Crash