Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 15, 2024 7:06:24 GMT -5
if you will recall, Obama was not decided on even marriage equality in his first term. many of these issues are "emergent". i think that the leadership should reflect the general public. do you? Not really I think leadership should reflect conservatism. Why? Is it because you like the idea of the US falling into the third world category entirely? |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 15, 2024 8:52:57 GMT -5
Universal healthcare would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead the Affordable Care Act was passed. Immediate withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead Obama increased troop levels. Those are two specific examples off the top of my head. What are your examples of "full left wing nuts" policies adopted by the Obama Administration? People here think the ACA is wonderful, it actually is a failure, we beat this horse to death just agree to disagree on this. His foreign police was terrible. Russia war in Ukraine is all Obama fault for allowing Russia to go into Crimea. The failure list of lefty bullshit goes on and on. The issue was "full left wing nuts", not successful. Some find fault with Obama and ACA because it wasn't "full left wing nuts" enough. Yeah, the United States and Obama "allowed" Russia to go into Crimea. Clearly we should have sent weapons? Bombers? Put American boots on the ground? That was the centralist position in that situation? It seems to me "full left wing nuts" is simply any policy with which you don't agree. |
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2024 10:41:18 GMT -5
The remark you bolded is because up until Obama most Democrats were viewed as mid lane leaning left ( I know you think Obama was mid land) and the Right mid lane leaning right. Obama and the Dems went full left wing nuts and the right from Trump on went right crazy. I don't believe in abortion (I would like to see it outlawed), I don't believe in trans rights, I don't believe in student loan forgivness I am far right. Universal healthcare would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead the Affordable Care Act was passed. Immediate withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead Obama increased troop levels. Those are two specific examples off the top of my head. What are your examples of "full left wing nuts" policies adopted by the Obama Administration? Even Bernie’s version of Universal Healthcare was Medicare - which still leaves the providers as independent and capitalistic. He said he would outlaw supplemental insurance- but there is absolutely zero chance of that happening in the USA any time soon. No democrat would pass that - not even AOC. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 15, 2024 12:40:39 GMT -5
Universal healthcare would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead the Affordable Care Act was passed. Immediate withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead Obama increased troop levels. Those are two specific examples off the top of my head. What are your examples of "full left wing nuts" policies adopted by the Obama Administration? People here think the ACA is wonderful, it actually is a failure, we beat this horse to death just agree to disagree on this. His foreign police was terrible. Russia war in Ukraine is all Obama fault for allowing Russia to go into Crimea. The failure list of lefty bullshit goes on and on. i have very little experience with the ACA. but the experience i DO have say that it is indispensible to low income people, and those that have no insurance available through employers with pre-existing conditions. my good friend and former bandmate had chronic back issues, and is self employed. without the ACA, he and his family would have no insurance. for him it was a game changer. i am not sure where you get the failure part. i actually have not heard that in years from anyone outside of the political class. can you give me an example of how it failed? |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 15, 2024 12:42:16 GMT -5
if you will recall, Obama was not decided on even marriage equality in his first term. many of these issues are "emergent". i think that the leadership should reflect the general public. do you? Not really I think leadership should reflect conservatism. i appreciate your candor, but i can't see why it should. the Republic was not built on conservatism, and the participation in the Republic has trended liberal for nearly two centuries now. why should the leadership not reflect that? |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 15, 2024 12:43:14 GMT -5
I would quibble with this a little bit. I always say that one of the best things that Bill Clinton did was bring the Democratic Party toward the center. Democrats reverted back left after him. Clinton was the last time I voted democrat. yet another thing we have in common. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 15, 2024 12:46:37 GMT -5
Universal healthcare would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead the Affordable Care Act was passed. Immediate withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan would have been "full left wing nuts" but instead Obama increased troop levels. Those are two specific examples off the top of my head. What are your examples of "full left wing nuts" policies adopted by the Obama Administration? Even Bernie’s version of Universal Healthcare was Medicare - which still leaves the providers as independent and capitalistic. He said he would outlaw supplemental insurance- but there is absolutely zero chance of that happening in the USA any time soon. No democrat would pass that - not even AOC. i would go further. i would nationalize all health insurance. why i should have no alternative other than to have someone working against me in my health decisions is absurd to me. |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 15, 2024 14:21:37 GMT -5
that is interesting. can you please explain this remark. liberal and libertarian are closely related. the central premise of both is personal liberty. i don't think most Republicans (and all religious conservatives) really care about personal liberty. they seem really intrigued by my sex life, how i dress, how i comport myself, how i identify, and what drugs i consume. none of those things are anyone's business other than mine, so long as i am not harming anyone else by doing them. this is something that Republicans used to believe, and they clearly do NOT any more. they want to run my life rather than minding their own god*amn business. Libertarians are different when it comes to capitalism than libertarians. libertarians are anti-authoritarian, and capitalism as it is practiced in the US is top town authoritarian. so there is a fundamental issue/schism on the economic side with libertarians and liberals that separates them from Libertarians. liberals/libertarians are generally anti-corporate, in the sense of top down corporations with infinite power, infinite resources, and eternal lives. liberals/libertarians like Jefferson (and me) and Bakunin were (are) absolutely opposed to that. The remark you bolded is because up until Obama most Democrats were viewed as mid lane leaning left ( I know you think Obama was mid land) and the Right mid lane leaning right. Obama and the Dems went full left wing nuts and the right from Trump on went right crazy. I don't believe in abortion (I would like to see it outlawed), I don't believe in trans rights, I don't believe in student loan forgivness I am far right.Whether you believe in them, or not spontaneous abortions will continue to happen every day. Ectopic pregnancies will happen. Things will go wrong during the birth or gestation that might kill the mother, the baby or both. Unfortunately, since you are looking for places to live in retirement this abortion issue is no longer personal to you. I would be happy to allow a right to die in favor of a fertilized egg directive that you and other likeminded folks could sign and give to hospitals and EMTs so they could follow your wishes instead of standard medical care. Fertilized egg stuck in your fallopian tube, death by checkbox on the fertilized egg directive. Fetus dies twenty weeks in and is not expelled by your uterus, luckily you signed a directive and we could let you die of sepsis shortly after. I believe in people's rights. In anything there can be excesses, and it appears some medical providers took advantage of parents and young children in this for-profit medical care system we have. I support measures that lessen the abuse. I prefer we look at the root causes of why student loan forgiveness might be needed at all. I think it still makes sense in helping fund doctors who wouldn't otherwise practice in underserved areas. |
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2024 15:02:28 GMT -5
Even Bernie’s version of Universal Healthcare was Medicare - which still leaves the providers as independent and capitalistic. He said he would outlaw supplemental insurance- but there is absolutely zero chance of that happening in the USA any time soon. No democrat would pass that - not even AOC. i would go further. i would nationalize all health insurance. why i should have no alternative other than to have someone working against me in my health decisions is absurd to me. The healthcare debate is a worthy conversation- but this comment is specific to what could realistically happen. If we had elected Bernie Sanders- a known socialist - we still would be a capitalist country. It is why we have checks and balances - so one guy doesn’t sink the ship. So, realistically, what is the most radical thing that can happen. True socialized healthcare is impossible. |
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 15, 2024 15:11:41 GMT -5
People here think the ACA is wonderful, it actually is a failure, we beat this horse to death just agree to disagree on this. His foreign police was terrible. Russia war in Ukraine is all Obama fault for allowing Russia to go into Crimea. The failure list of lefty bullshit goes on and on. I know a few Republicans thought the same way about the ACA....until they needed it.  interesting isn't it. Things that benefit the masses are bad until YOU personally need them ETA: interestingly several of those I know who are now using the ACA made a big point of the fact that they are using ACA and definitely not "Obama care". THAT they still oppose. Trying to convince them that it is the same thing is a lesson in futility |
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Post by tallguy on Aug 15, 2024 15:28:50 GMT -5
I know a few Republicans thought the same way about the ACA....until they needed it. interesting isn't it. Things that benefit the masses are bad until YOU personally need them ETA: interestingly several of those I know who are now using the ACA made a big point of the fact that they are using ACA and definitely not "Obama care". THAT they still oppose. Trying to convince them that it is the same thing is a lesson in futility Yeah, I was going to make that point. The ignorance of the public in general is stunning. The ignorance of the average conservative is frightening. |
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Post by tbop77 on Aug 15, 2024 15:34:17 GMT -5
I know a few Republicans thought the same way about the ACA....until they needed it. interesting isn't it. Things that benefit the masses are bad until YOU personally need them ETA: interestingly several of those I know who are now using the ACA made a big point of the fact that they are using ACA and definitely not "Obama care". THAT they still oppose. Trying to convince them that it is the same thing is a lesson in futility Yep, had those conversations as well. ME: So, Obama did something good after all THEM: I'm not on ObamaCare, I have insurance through the ACA Of course, they would probably need brain surgery from their head exploding if they admitted they were helped by anything Obama did.  |
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 15, 2024 16:07:12 GMT -5
Well to be fair, I have a pronounced foreign accent. So some of the ACA/Obama care discussions end when they come up with the very "clever" argument that I am a foreigner (true) so of course I lack the ability to understand these things  . And....I am done. I am not going to get into any discussions with these superior brains. Life is too short |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 15, 2024 16:28:43 GMT -5
i would go further. i would nationalize all health insurance. why i should have no alternative other than to have someone working against me in my health decisions is absurd to me. The healthcare debate is a worthy conversation- but this comment is specific to what could realistically happen. If we had elected Bernie Sanders- a known socialist - we still would be a capitalist country. It is why we have checks and balances - so one guy doesn’t sink the ship. So, realistically, what is the most radical thing that can happen. True socialized healthcare is impossible. nobody is talking about socializing healthcare. |
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2024 18:03:04 GMT -5
The healthcare debate is a worthy conversation- but this comment is specific to what could realistically happen. If we had elected Bernie Sanders- a known socialist - we still would be a capitalist country. It is why we have checks and balances - so one guy doesn’t sink the ship. So, realistically, what is the most radical thing that can happen. True socialized healthcare is impossible. nobody is talking about socializing healthcare. There is some hysteria on the ground that Kamala will bring in ‘full blown socialism’ as if the democrats aren’t owned by corporate America. As long as citizens united stands, there won’t be any kind of socialism - or nothing even close to it. Not in any industry. We won’t even be able to claw education back from corporations. |
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 15, 2024 19:17:23 GMT -5
Well to be fair, I have a pronounced foreign accent. So some of the ACA/Obama care discussions end when they come up with the very "clever" argument that I am a foreigner (true) so of course I lack the ability to understand these things . And....I am done. I am not going to get into any discussions with these superior brains. Life is too short It’s the same when you try to point out to them that European countries all have gun control and also very low gun related deaths. ‘You can’t compare us to European countries - we’re special. ‘ Specially stupid apparently. |
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