Alabama’s embryos ruling is a terrifying preview of...

[Tennesseer]

Question:  Is spaying pregnant dogs and cats in Alabama animal abuse? The unborn puppies and kittens are destroyed.  

[Tiny]

I don't think the Big 3 Religions see animals as having "souls" so  it doesn't matter what you do to animals, well, you might have to pay the owner of the animal because you have taken away something from the owner. (the future animals it could produce).  Kind of like how in the old testament taking a girl's virginity (without marrying her) could be resolved by paying her father for the loss (cause now she's worth less). 

[Tennesseer]

[busymom]

Feb 23, 2024 10:19:46 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Feb 23, 2024 8:58:50 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yeah, because men never had sex for recreation in the old days/s.
They seem to forget there is a reason that prostitution is called the world’s oldest profession and has a prominent place in the New Testament

MEN have sex for fun.    MEN have the right to sex not only for pleasure but to fulfill their manly destiny of having heirs.

Proper God fearing women are supposed to lie back and take it.  If we do not willing submit then men have every right to take it from us.   Being trapped barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen is a blessing from God.  We are fulfilling the purpose for which God put us on Earth.

It's all about control.  I have no right to my body only men have the right to decide what is done with my body be it forcing me to have sex or forcing me to carry their seed.

That is the sole reason for my existence.  The use and pleasure of men.


Women who enjoy sex and give it freely are whores and are to be treated as such and punished by society.

    I may delete this later, so please don't copy it.  I had a former coworker born into a Catholic family.  Her Mom still had not reached menopause, and had her last baby at age 50, and refused to have sex after that baby was born, because she was tired (and they already had a lot of kids).  Dad begins to have sex with one of his own daughters, and her Mom didn't stop him, because at least he wasn't pestering her for sex.  Daughter was abused multiple times, and didn't tell on Dad until after she was married & out of the house.  Of course, daughter was the villain, because they were a "good Catholic family", and she told the "family secret".    I can't even begin to comprehend why in some people's minds, it's ok to do stuff like that.  

[NastyWoman]

Feb 23, 2024 8:53:59 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:42:07 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I do not understand it either. I can only guess that IVF is “unnatural” and that it creates these “excess babies” that are discarded and we can’t have that

I think this is it. If you want a baby, pray for a miracle. If you have a fetus without a brain that will die at birth, pray that God gives you a miracle. If you get raped and get pregnant because of it, God gave you a miracle.

I will point out these same people will go to a doctor for a broken leg and call the fire department when their home catches on fire, so they don’t avoid ALL human intervention, just the parts having to do with sex.

Read something yesterday where far right evangelical types want to make sex something done only for procreation, not recreation, so they want to outlaw all forms of birth control. Don’t want to get pregnant- don’t have sex, because that’s what sex is for.

I can see that already playing out: yea Bubba, not tonight. I am not ovulating so you will have to wait until mid months. Also, remember when you do knock me up,  god blesses us with a baby no more sex for you for the next 10 months or so.

lead balloons come to mind... 

[tbop77]

Haley said during an exclusive interview with NewsNation’s Leland Vittert. “What we don’t want to see is states all over the country do a knee-jerk reaction. … When it comes to fertility treatments, this is a personal decision between the physician and the parents. Period.”


www.newsnationnow.com/on-balance-with-leland-vittert/haley-speaks-ivf-alabama-decision/

Wait what?  Does she mean we don't want what we have now that Roe was overturned?  Knee jerk reactions by states?  Not being a PERSONAL decision?  Period!

[Tennesseer]

[djAdvocate]

Feb 23, 2024 16:28:19 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I don't think the Big 3 Religions see animals as having "souls" so  it doesn't matter what you do to animals, well, you might have to pay the owner of the animal because you have taken away something from the owner. (the future animals it could produce).  Kind of like how in the old testament taking a girl's virginity (without marrying her) could be resolved by paying her father for the loss (cause now she's worth less). 

i would venture to guess that there is significant disagreement on when souls are "acquired" by a fetus among even evangelicals.

[happyhoix]

Feb 25, 2024 22:47:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 23, 2024 16:28:19 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I don't think the Big 3 Religions see animals as having "souls" so  it doesn't matter what you do to animals, well, you might have to pay the owner of the animal because you have taken away something from the owner. (the future animals it could produce).  Kind of like how in the old testament taking a girl's virginity (without marrying her) could be resolved by paying her father for the loss (cause now she's worth less). 

i would venture to guess that there is significant disagreement on when souls are "acquired" by a fetus among even evangelicals.

Listening to NPR this AM a woman was sharing her story of having five embryos made via IVF but three of them being determined to be ‘non viable’ and discarded by her doctor.

So now would that be murder- even if they are non viable? Do we need to pay to keep them frozen to infinity and beyond?

The whole thing is ridiculous.

[chiver78]

Feb 26, 2024 8:02:01 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 25, 2024 22:47:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i would venture to guess that there is significant disagreement on when souls are "acquired" by a fetus among even evangelicals.

Listening to NPR this AM a woman was sharing her story of having five embryos made via IVF but three of them being determined to be ‘non viable’ and discarded by her doctor.

So now would that be murder- even if they are non viable? Do we need to pay to keep them frozen to infinity and beyond?

The whole thing is ridiculous.

yes, that's exactly what this means. 

[thyme4change]

Feb 23, 2024 13:18:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:19:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

I think the issue with IVF is religion based. I know back in the day the Catholic Church denounced it (but it didn't stop "good Catholics" from using it to solve their infertility issues). I suspect many Christian denominations denounce it as well.

At the very least it goes with the anti abortion agenda. To outlaw abortion they needed "life begins at conception" to be the rule. And IVF makes lots of embryos that don't get implanted. Isn't there the option to have multiple embryos implanted (some don't make it, some do) and then to choose the healthiest/best implanted one to continue while the others are removed (I guess that would be selectively aborted?) or to discontinue the pregnancy if problems develop early in the pregnancy (to mom or to the implanted embryo)? This may be "info" I received while still attending Catholic Church back in the 80's.

FWIW: I don't have a moral or ethical issue with IVF or Abortion. Both generally facilitate more "good in the world" than "bad in the world" in my mind.


The thing about religion is it's not about "humans" it's about a God (or Gods) and what humans OWE God/Gods. It doesn't matter if abortion has positives for humans. It's NOT good for God - so humans shouldn't do it. If a woman dies because they couldn't get an abortion - God's good with it - it was good for the woman. If having unwanted children burdens a family (even if it's a married couple) - God's good with it - it's part of His plan. The old cliche: God doesn't give people more than can bear.

I’m thinking that to the anti-abortion contingent, IVF was just going to be collateral damage. They probably (for the most part) don’t care, as long as abortion in every form and fashion is outlawed.

However, if this is a path republicans try to take, they may not get very far. There is no one who is more of a real evangelical leader than Mike Pence - and even he is in favor of IVF. Trump is not standing behind this either. IVF is hugely popular - this would be some truly gilead shit.

I feel for people in Alabama who are in the process. They are tens if not hundreds of thousands into this, and they can’t continue, and they can’t ship their embryos anywhere. Maybe they could threaten the clinics with kidnapping and get them to give you the embryos and you can transport them yourself? Such a nightmare for those people.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 26, 2024 17:50:40 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Feb 23, 2024 13:18:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think the issue with IVF is religion based. I know back in the day the Catholic Church denounced it (but it didn't stop "good Catholics" from using it to solve their infertility issues). I suspect many Christian denominations denounce it as well.

At the very least it goes with the anti abortion agenda. To outlaw abortion they needed "life begins at conception" to be the rule. And IVF makes lots of embryos that don't get implanted. Isn't there the option to have multiple embryos implanted (some don't make it, some do) and then to choose the healthiest/best implanted one to continue while the others are removed (I guess that would be selectively aborted?) or to discontinue the pregnancy if problems develop early in the pregnancy (to mom or to the implanted embryo)? This may be "info" I received while still attending Catholic Church back in the 80's.

FWIW: I don't have a moral or ethical issue with IVF or Abortion. Both generally facilitate more "good in the world" than "bad in the world" in my mind.


The thing about religion is it's not about "humans" it's about a God (or Gods) and what humans OWE God/Gods. It doesn't matter if abortion has positives for humans. It's NOT good for God - so humans shouldn't do it. If a woman dies because they couldn't get an abortion - God's good with it - it was good for the woman. If having unwanted children burdens a family (even if it's a married couple) - God's good with it - it's part of His plan. The old cliche: God doesn't give people more than can bear.

I’m thinking that to the anti-abortion contingent, IVF was just going to be collateral damage. They probably (for the most part) don’t care, as long as abortion in every form and fashion is outlawed.

However, if this is a path republicans try to take, they may not get very far. There is no one who is more of a real evangelical leader than Mike Pence - and even he is in favor of IVF. Trump is not standing behind this either. IVF is hugely popular - this would be some truly gilead shit.

I feel for people in Alabama who are in the process. They are tens if not hundreds of thousands into this, and they can’t continue, and they can’t ship their embryos anywhere. Maybe they could threaten the clinics with kidnapping and get them to give you the embryos and you can transport them yourself? Such a nightmare for those people.

That would be interesting.  Invest in a $400+ Dewar flask to transport liquid nitrogen, get embryos.  You now have about 72 hours or so to get your embryos out of state to another facility for storage before your liquid nitrogen evaporates and you wind up killing the embryos.  Then you get charged with murder.  

[chiver78]

Feb 26, 2024 19:05:28 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Feb 26, 2024 17:50:40 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m thinking that to the anti-abortion contingent, IVF was just going to be collateral damage. They probably (for the most part) don’t care, as long as abortion in every form and fashion is outlawed.

However, if this is a path republicans try to take, they may not get very far. There is no one who is more of a real evangelical leader than Mike Pence - and even he is in favor of IVF. Trump is not standing behind this either. IVF is hugely popular - this would be some truly gilead shit.

I feel for people in Alabama who are in the process. They are tens if not hundreds of thousands into this, and they can’t continue, and they can’t ship their embryos anywhere. Maybe they could threaten the clinics with kidnapping and get them to give you the embryos and you can transport them yourself? Such a nightmare for those people.

That would be interesting.  Invest in a $400+ Dewar flask to transport liquid nitrogen, get embryos.  You now have about 72 hours or so to get your embryos out of state to another facility for storage before your liquid nitrogen evaporates and you wind up killing the embryos.  Then you get charged with murder.  

there was another SVU episode about this scenario as well. lol.....I can recount it, if folks are interested. 

[tbop77]

Yet over the weekend, Republicans continued to reveal how little they know about the procedure. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, for example, was completely tripped up by a question from CNN’s Dana Bash, who simply asked: “Are you saying that families in Texas who are using IVF, have extra embryos that are frozen, do not need to worry?”



“Well so you raise fine questions that are complex, that I simply don’t know the answer to. Let me give you a couple examples and that is, uh, I have no idea mathematically the number of frozen embryos,” he stumbled. “Is it one, 10, 100, 1,000? Things like that matter.



“These are very complex issues where, I’m not sure everybody is really thought about what all the potential problems are and as a result, no one really knows what the potential answers are,” he continued, prompting CNN’s Kasie Hunt to make this face in response to the exchange:


www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-increasingly-reveal-they-barely-know-where-babies-come-from/ar-BB1iW3pF?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=255facccd4ce4907ac55323be2e535fd&ei=38


I think that explains the policies of the GOP on just about everything!  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

But I thought it was only democrats who passed bills without reading them!

[busymom]

Feb 27, 2024 10:06:33 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Yet over the weekend, Republicans continued to reveal how little they know about the procedure. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, for example, was completely tripped up by a question from CNN’s Dana Bash, who simply asked: “Are you saying that families in Texas who are using IVF, have extra embryos that are frozen, do not need to worry?”



“Well so you raise fine questions that are complex, that I simply don’t know the answer to. Let me give you a couple examples and that is, uh, I have no idea mathematically the number of frozen embryos,” he stumbled. “Is it one, 10, 100, 1,000? Things like that matter.



“These are very complex issues where, I’m not sure everybody is really thought about what all the potential problems are and as a result, no one really knows what the potential answers are,” he continued, prompting CNN’s Kasie Hunt to make this face in response to the exchange:


www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-increasingly-reveal-they-barely-know-where-babies-come-from/ar-BB1iW3pF?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=255facccd4ce4907ac55323be2e535fd&ei=38


I think that explains the policies of the GOP on just about everything!  

     I'm not sure the word "think" should be in the same sentence as GOP.  These days the people they put into office aren't heavy on thinking.  <sigh>  I miss the old days.  

[happyhoix]

Feb 27, 2024 10:06:33 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Yet over the weekend, Republicans continued to reveal how little they know about the procedure. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, for example, was completely tripped up by a question from CNN’s Dana Bash, who simply asked: “Are you saying that families in Texas who are using IVF, have extra embryos that are frozen, do not need to worry?”



“Well so you raise fine questions that are complex, that I simply don’t know the answer to. Let me give you a couple examples and that is, uh, I have no idea mathematically the number of frozen embryos,” he stumbled. “Is it one, 10, 100, 1,000? Things like that matter.



“These are very complex issues where, I’m not sure everybody is really thought about what all the potential problems are and as a result, no one really knows what the potential answers are,” he continued, prompting CNN’s Kasie Hunt to make this face in response to the exchange:


www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-increasingly-reveal-they-barely-know-where-babies-come-from/ar-BB1iW3pF?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=255facccd4ce4907ac55323be2e535fd&ei=38


I think that explains the policies of the GOP on just about everything!  

Well, when you let a bunch of older white men with no medical background make all the rules about contraception/reproduction you get a lot of stupidly ignorant rules. 

Heard on the TV’s this am that something like 85% of Americans think IVF should be available. This may bite the GOP in the ass during the election - as if Roe vs Wade wasn’t enough to keep the soccer mom’s away. 

[pulmonarymd]

Abbott wasn't all wrong. These issues are complex if you want to ban abortion and call embryos a person. A little less complex if you aren't a RWNJ. But these issues require solutions that are well thought out, discussed, debated, and require input by people who are experts about the issues. None of which is what the republican party wants anymore. It is all emotion and knee jerk responses. Hope more of these decisions are coming so their total incompetence is unveiled, and the people who support them because "it doesn't affect me" are finally affected.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 27, 2024 17:33:34 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Abbott wasn't all wrong. These issues are complex if you want to ban abortion and call embryos a person. A little less complex if you aren't a RWNJ. But these issues require solutions that are well thought out, discussed, debated, and require input by people who are experts about the issues. None of which is what the republican party wants anymore. It is all emotion and knee jerk responses. Hope more of these decisions are coming so their total incompetence is unveiled, and the people who support them because "it doesn't affect me" are finally affected.

i think the failure to consult experts is what is slowly (quickly?) rendering the GOP and their fake populism (anti-intellectualism) a party which should NEVER govern, not even at a local dog shelter, or sanitation department.

[tallguy]

Feb 27, 2024 18:19:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 27, 2024 17:33:34 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Abbott wasn't all wrong. These issues are complex if you want to ban abortion and call embryos a person. A little less complex if you aren't a RWNJ. But these issues require solutions that are well thought out, discussed, debated, and require input by people who are experts about the issues. None of which is what the republican party wants anymore. It is all emotion and knee jerk responses. Hope more of these decisions are coming so their total incompetence is unveiled, and the people who support them because "it doesn't affect me" are finally affected.

i think the failure to consult experts is what is slowly (quickly?) rendering the GOP and their fake populism (anti-intellectualism) a party which should NEVER govern, not even at a local dog shelter, or sanitation department.

I used to split my vote pretty regularly.  I am at the point now that I will NEVER vote for a Republican for national office again.  They must be kept FAR away from that kind of power.  I may still at some point vote (and indeed have voted recently) for a Republican in a state or local race, but that depends entirely on the individual involved.  If they have ever said anything in support of Donald Trump they are a no-for-life.  Support for Trump is now the unforgivable sin of politics.

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 27, 2024 18:36:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Feb 27, 2024 18:19:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think the failure to consult experts is what is slowly (quickly?) rendering the GOP and their fake populism (anti-intellectualism) a party which should NEVER govern, not even at a local dog shelter, or sanitation department.

I used to split my vote pretty regularly.  I am at the point now that I will NEVER vote for a Republican for national office again.  They must be kept FAR away from that kind of power.  I may still at some point vote (and indeed have voted recently) for a Republican in a state or local race, but that depends entirely on the individual involved.  If they have ever said anything in support of Donald Trump they are a no-for-life.  Support for Trump is now the unforgivable sin of politics.

I will not vote for a Republican until they repudiate trumpism and MAGA. I would consider voting for a felon if they are a democrat if the race is going to be close. That includes local races. When they decide to become a rational party again

[djAdvocate]

Feb 27, 2024 19:12:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 27, 2024 18:36:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I used to split my vote pretty regularly.  I am at the point now that I will NEVER vote for a Republican for national office again.  They must be kept FAR away from that kind of power.  I may still at some point vote (and indeed have voted recently) for a Republican in a state or local race, but that depends entirely on the individual involved.  If they have ever said anything in support of Donald Trump they are a no-for-life.  Support for Trump is now the unforgivable sin of politics.

I will not vote for a Republican until they repudiate trumpism and MAGA. I would consider voting for a felon if they are a democrat if the race is going to be close. That includes local races. When they decide to become a rational party again

i am further along than this in some ways.  i won't vote for a Republican at any level of office until there is a reformation of the party.  the Party that Jefferson founded 200 years ago has degenerated into a party of small minded bigotry.  i can't stand it, and nobody else should, either.

[tallguy]

Feb 27, 2024 21:06:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 27, 2024 19:12:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I will not vote for a Republican until they repudiate trumpism and MAGA. I would consider voting for a felon if they are a democrat if the race is going to be close. That includes local races. When they decide to become a rational party again

i am further along than this in some ways.  i won't vote for a Republican at any level of office until there is a reformation of the party.  the Party that Jefferson founded 200 years ago has degenerated into a party of small minded bigotry.  i can't stand it, and nobody else should, either.

We had a Republican Secretary of State who did a good job in office.  She resigned to take a job with the Biden administration to work on election security.  Voted for her more than once.  We also have a Seattle City Attorney who was a former Democrat.  She switched parties in 2020 but did vote for Biden that year.  Her opponent was a far-left advocate of abolishing the police.  Not a difficult choice there either.  So no, I can't make a blanket, "No Republicans Ever!" statement.  I can for national office, but not state or local.

[djAdvocate]

the part of California i am from is not structured like that. the middle is far left enough that nobody runs left of it. in other words, i have not had to make that choice.

but as you know, i rarely vote Democrat, either. i just don't vote Republican. empowering them is a mistake at this point. they are doing everything wrong with that power.

once they have restored some honor, i will consider it. i am not sure what would be the clearest indicator of that.

edit: TG- i was not being critical.  i think your position is more rational than mine.  mine could best be described as "fed up".  i used to not only tolerate the GOP, i VOTED WITH THEM.  that ended in 2016.  i have not cast a single Republican vote since then.  Kasich was a decent man, and would have made a good president.  i would have voted for him.  Trump?  i would rather saw my arm off than vote for Trump.  and i really like my arm.  

[tallguy]

Feb 27, 2024 21:46:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the part of California i am from is not structured like that. the middle is far left enough that nobody runs left of it. in other words, i have not had to make that choice.

but as you know, i rarely vote Democrat, either. i just don't vote Republican. empowering them is a mistake at this point. they are doing everything wrong with that power.

once they have restored some honor, i will consider it. i am not sure what would be the clearest indicator of that.

edit: TG- i was not being critical.  i think your position is more rational than mine.  mine could best be described as "fed up".  i used to not only tolerate the GOP, i VOTED WITH THEM.  that ended in 2016.  i have not cast a single Republican vote since then.  Kasich was a decent man, and would have made a good president.  i would have voted for him.  Trump?  i would rather saw my arm off than vote for Trump.  and i really like my arm.  

I get it, and I didn't think it was a criticism, so don't be concerned with that.  Not sure I agree about Kasich.  He would have been better than Trump, obviously, but I don't think he would have been good.  As I recall he had some positions that were pretty distasteful.  He was just better at hiding his extremism.   

[chiver78]

along these lines, I'm thinking about the rational Republicans that opted not to run for re-election because their disdain for Trump made them targets in their own party. I voted for Charlie Baker each time he was on the ballot for MA governor. he was a very popular Republican governor in a very blue state, but he absolutely would have lost his own primary if he chose to run again last time. 

[Tennesseer]

A thought crossed my mind about all human life in any form, including a fertilized embryo, is a living person and made in God's "image" as determined by the Alabama Supreme court. 

If all life is sacred in Alabama, shouldn't Alabama now ban the death penalty?  I understand the reason why the death penalty exists.  But it does appear there is at least one exception to the all life is sacred belief. 

If there is one exception then all life is not sacred in Alabama, and the new embryo law doesn't stand up to religious scrutiny as used by the Alabama court.

[Tennesseer]

Republicans block bill to protect access to IVF

Senate Republicans blocked an effort Wednesday to pass legislation that would federally protect access to in vitro fertilization (IVF).

Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.) sought to pass the bill by unanimous consent, which meant that any one senator could object and scuttle the effort.

Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-Miss.) objected, saying the legislation is an overreach full of “poison pills” that would go far beyond ensuring access to IVF.

“It would legalize human cloning. It would legalize commercial surrogacy, including for young girls without parental involvement. It would legalize gene edited designer babies and lift the federal ban on the creation of three parent embryos,” she said.

Duckworth said Hyde-Smith was misinterpreting the bill.

“It does not force anyone to see reproductive technology. It does not force anyone to offer it. It does not force anyone to cover it. It simply says you have a statutory right should you choose to pursue assisted reproductive technology,” Duckworth said.

Republican senators said this week they support access to IVF, but they don’t want to interfere in a state issue and don’t feel there needs to be federal protections for IVF.

“In this nightmarish moment, it’s nowhere near enough to send out a vaguely worded tweet claiming you care about women’s rights, despite your voting record to the contrary,” Duckworth said on the Senate floor.

Rest of article here: Republicans block bill to protect access to IVF

[happyhoix]

Heard just a piece of a NPR radio interview with the Alabama politician who launched the whole ‘a fetus is equivalent to a child’ thing - he said when he did it, he ‘had no idea how many of them there are in Alabama’ - by which I assume he meant fetuses. He said he didn’t mean just ‘fetuses’ but ‘fetuses within a womb.’

Probably IVF never crossed his mind. Probably someone had to explain it to him, after the fact.

That’s what happens when politicians try to write healthcare laws.

[pulmonarymd]

Well, now they have to deal with the control a stupid law. Karma is a bitch