Alabama’s embryos ruling is a terrifying preview of...

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 16:11:51 GMT -5 resolution said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:28:28 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Good way to get yourself fired up here. Short of a law requiring the police be notified about something, telling anyone that would be grounds for termination, for you are breaking confidentiality and patient privacy. And if you are a medical professional, sued and sanctioned. But anti-abortionists do not care about patient confidentiality(unless it is their own).

Isn't that pretty much what happened in the Ohio case where they charged the woman with abuse of a corpse? It was one of the nurses that reported her to the police after she miscarried.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/26/ohio-jury-woman-miscarriage-abuse-corpse

Seems to be. But unless their was a law that said that the authorities need to be notified in these situations, she has a pretty good HIPAA claim. Unless we are mandatory reporters, we are not allowed to do something like this without getting our hospital administrators involved in this situation. At least that is the way it works in the rational part of the US.

We are not required to report much beyond gunshot wounds and child abuse. Everything else, the police needs to get a court order if they want information. Otherwise, it is a great way to have people avoid care because they do not trust you to keep their medical information confidential.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 16:09:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:56:21 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

TD and I have already had discussions.  Healthcare locally is already horrendous and we know that as we age, we are going to be more dependent upon it.  While we are younger and healthy, it's not an issue to drive ourselves to Seattle.  That will not always be the case, so we know we are going to have to sell out and move closer in.  Both of us HATE the idea, but the healthcare here really sucks.  2 friends of already died from things that never should have happened.  

Healthcare is very regional. People make decisions to move to a LCOL area when they first retire, not thinking about their healthcare needs. Suddenly, when they are 80, they start to need help, and the care and services available are substandard. We frequently see people in that situation move back here from Florida, or make a number of appointments when they come up for these reasons. Not thinking about what you are going to do when you get sick(something very likely to happen) when you live in East Bumfuck, should be part of your retirement planning.

My wife and are are starting to think about where we may wind up when we are done working. Access to high quality care is high on our list, even if it may be more costly

We hate the idea we might wind up in a condo near Seattle.  However, TBH it also means that a lot of responsibility for a home is on someone else's shoulders to a certain extent. At the time, we may also give serious consideration to concierge medicine.  We are early/mid 60s now, and are punting this down the road for 10 years but it IS in the back of our minds of what we need to do.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 16:11:51 GMT -5 resolution said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:28:28 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Good way to get yourself fired up here. Short of a law requiring the police be notified about something, telling anyone that would be grounds for termination, for you are breaking confidentiality and patient privacy. And if you are a medical professional, sued and sanctioned. But anti-abortionists do not care about patient confidentiality(unless it is their own).

Isn't that pretty much what happened in the Ohio case where they charged the woman with abuse of a corpse? It was one of the nurses that reported her to the police after she miscarried.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/26/ohio-jury-woman-miscarriage-abuse-corpse

I believe they also sent her home while it was happening, or she was having issues.  

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 16:23:26 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I would guess they'd have to make it a law you can only fertilize and implant one egg at a time or you would have to implant/immediately donate any unused eggs.  I can't imagine these people thinking it's acceptable to keep eggs frozen indefinitely if they are considered people because you can't put people on deep freeze it's inhumane.

If you can continue to store embryos indefinitely it circles back to the fact they are clumps of cells.  Cells can be frozen almost indefinitely.  If they are clumps of cells that can be frozen then they aren't people and there goes that law out the window.

This is likely the first shot to eventually ban IVF all together.  They are testing to see what they can get away with.

Not going to need a law. One of the solutions I read about said that they would only retrieve and fertilize 1-2 eggs. If that cycle failed, you go back and retrieve more eggs. More risk to the women, more costs to the people going through this, and I suspect that Insurance Companies will balk at paying for so many cycles. They will be well on their way to banning IVF without passing a law. It will be interesting to see how much these red states will get away with until their citizens say enough and elect someone other than a republican. They don't appear to have reached that point yet

[busymom]

Feb 22, 2024 16:09:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:56:21 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

TD and I have already had discussions.  Healthcare locally is already horrendous and we know that as we age, we are going to be more dependent upon it.  While we are younger and healthy, it's not an issue to drive ourselves to Seattle.  That will not always be the case, so we know we are going to have to sell out and move closer in.  Both of us HATE the idea, but the healthcare here really sucks.  2 friends of already died from things that never should have happened.  

Healthcare is very regional. People make decisions to move to a LCOL area when they first retire, not thinking about their healthcare needs. Suddenly, when they are 80, they start to need help, and the care and services available are substandard. We frequently see people in that situation move back here from Florida, or make a number of appointments when they come up for these reasons. Not thinking about what you are going to do when you get sick(something very likely to happen) when you live in East Bumfuck, should be part of your retirement planning.

My wife and are are starting to think about where we may wind up when we are done working. Access to high quality care is high on our list, even if it may be more costly

     After we left Florida, we spoke to a couple of doctors here about that state's problem with healthcare.  Two of our doctors told us they have patients who live "down South", but continue to drive back North to their doctors to fill their prescriptions & monitor their health.  That alone tells you what our experience was like in Florida.  Florida doctors wouldn't even direct you to specialists they trusted or try to help find you one.  We really felt alone there trying to navigate their health system, or lack of one.  Nice state, if you live to enjoy it.  

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 16:37:05 GMT -5 busymom said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:09:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Healthcare is very regional. People make decisions to move to a LCOL area when they first retire, not thinking about their healthcare needs. Suddenly, when they are 80, they start to need help, and the care and services available are substandard. We frequently see people in that situation move back here from Florida, or make a number of appointments when they come up for these reasons. Not thinking about what you are going to do when you get sick(something very likely to happen) when you live in East Bumfuck, should be part of your retirement planning.

My wife and are are starting to think about where we may wind up when we are done working. Access to high quality care is high on our list, even if it may be more costly

     After we left Florida, we spoke to a couple of doctors here about that state's problem with healthcare.  Two of our doctors told us they have patients who live "down South", but continue to drive back North to their doctors to fill their prescriptions & monitor their health.  That alone tells you what our experience was like in Florida.  Florida doctors wouldn't even direct you to specialists they trusted or try to help find you one.  We really felt alone there trying to navigate their health system, or lack of one.  Nice state, if you live to enjoy it.  

Medicine in Florida is like the Wild West. Highest incidence of medicare fraud. I have see records of patients who were cared for down there and i would be like WTF are they thinking. My wife's friend is a snow bird, she had a medical issue down there, and trying to find the care she needed was a nightmare. Unfortunately, I think many physicians move there to avoid a state income tax and to e able to make a boatload of money without much risk of oversite or malpractice suits, and the atmosphere drags people who want to do a good job down. No thanks.

[NastyWoman]

Feb 22, 2024 15:30:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:28:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

My question:  Say a couple donate six eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization.  The eggs are fertilized and frozen for future use.  The couple use two of the frozen embryos and have two children.  The couple no longer need the other frozenen embryos.  What happens to them.  The couple does not wish to donate the remaining embryos to other couples who are unable to have children including through  in vitro fertilization.  The donating couple, under current Alabama law are unable to destroy the  embryos as they are now considered actual children.

What then?  Do the embryos stay frozen for eternity if the state law remains in place forever?  Wouldn't that be child abuse?

Posting the above on the other thread about this issue.

Yes, they will have to pay to store them indefinitely.

Fun thing will be when they divorce, and one of them wants to destroy them so they do not become a parent against their will. Want to bet that the courts will allow implantation despite one of them objecting.

What about if the couple dies intestate? Since the fertilized eggs are legally "children", wouldn't they have an equal right to an inheritance? And, if so, who would get to play with manage that inheritance?
Or what when the couple dies and the money runs out? Will these " children" get Medicaid for all eternity? 
Damn, there are sure more than just a few immediate implications to this ruling. 

ETA: it only took me two minutes to come up with the above. I am sure we can fill an entire book with potential problems with this ruling. 

[thyme4change]

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 17:10:10 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:30:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yes, they will have to pay to store them indefinitely.

Fun thing will be when they divorce, and one of them wants to destroy them so they do not become a parent against their will. Want to bet that the courts will allow implantation despite one of them objecting.

What about if the couple dies intestate? Since the fertilized eggs are legally "children", wouldn't they have an equal right to an inheritance? And, if so, who would get to play with manage that inheritance?
Or what when the couple dies and the money runs out? Will these " children" get Medicaid for all eternity? 
Damn, there are sure more than just a few immediate implications to this ruling. 

ETA: it only took me two minutes to come up with the above. I am sure we can fill an entire book with potential problems with this ruling. 

Good one, hadn’t thought of it. All kinds of arguments for lawyers to make. Way to increase their revenues. It is interesting though. Parents die without heirs, who pays for storage? Are heirs obligated to continue to pay for storage. Talk about an unfounded mandate. Or does the facility have to keep them without payment. Talk about driving them out of business

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 17:19:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

I do not understand it either. I can only guess that IVF is “unnatural” and that it creates these “excess babies” that are discarded and we can’t have that

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 17:19:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

It’s about control.  This state is legislating pregnancy.  You can’t get pregnant normally?  Sucks to be you.  If you want a kid, adopt one of the thousands that need to be adopted.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 17:40:39 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:10:10 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

What about if the couple dies intestate? Since the fertilized eggs are legally "children", wouldn't they have an equal right to an inheritance? And, if so, who would get to play with manage that inheritance?
Or what when the couple dies and the money runs out? Will these " children" get Medicaid for all eternity? 
Damn, there are sure more than just a few immediate implications to this ruling. 

ETA: it only took me two minutes to come up with the above. I am sure we can fill an entire book with potential problems with this ruling. 

Good one, hadn’t thought of it. All kinds of arguments for lawyers to make. Way to increase their revenues. It is interesting though. Parents die without heirs, who pays for storage? Are heirs obligated to continue to pay for storage. Talk about an unfounded mandate. Or does the facility have to keep them without payment. Talk about driving them out of business

And if an overworked tech lets a liquid nitrogen tank run dry, is it mass murder?

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 17:45:14 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:40:39 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Good one, hadn’t thought of it. All kinds of arguments for lawyers to make. Way to increase their revenues. It is interesting though. Parents die without heirs, who pays for storage? Are heirs obligated to continue to pay for storage. Talk about an unfounded mandate. Or does the facility have to keep them without payment. Talk about driving them out of business

And if an overworked tech lets a liquid nitrogen tank run dry, is it mass murder?

Obviously. Silly question. We are about 2 steps away from “Every sperm is sacred” for any Monty Python fans out there

[Deleted]

Feb 22, 2024 16:29:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:23:26 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I would guess they'd have to make it a law you can only fertilize and implant one egg at a time or you would have to implant/immediately donate any unused eggs.  I can't imagine these people thinking it's acceptable to keep eggs frozen indefinitely if they are considered people because you can't put people on deep freeze it's inhumane.

If you can continue to store embryos indefinitely it circles back to the fact they are clumps of cells.  Cells can be frozen almost indefinitely.  If they are clumps of cells that can be frozen then they aren't people and there goes that law out the window.

This is likely the first shot to eventually ban IVF all together.  They are testing to see what they can get away with.

Not going to need a law. One of the solutions I read about said that they would only retrieve and fertilize 1-2 eggs. If that cycle failed, you go back and retrieve more eggs. More risk to the women, more costs to the people going through this, and I suspect that Insurance Companies will balk at paying for so many cycles. They will be well on their way to banning IVF without passing a law. It will be interesting to see how much these red states will get away with until their citizens say enough and elect someone other than a republican. They don't appear to have reached that point yet

Could they retrieve a bunch of eggs and freeze them unfertilized to be fertilized 1-2 at a time later?  I know that method has a lower success rate, but seems like it might be easier/cheaper.  

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 17:53:06 GMT -5 @pooks said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:29:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Not going to need a law. One of the solutions I read about said that they would only retrieve and fertilize 1-2 eggs. If that cycle failed, you go back and retrieve more eggs. More risk to the women, more costs to the people going through this, and I suspect that Insurance Companies will balk at paying for so many cycles. They will be well on their way to banning IVF without passing a law. It will be interesting to see how much these red states will get away with until their citizens say enough and elect someone other than a republican. They don't appear to have reached that point yet

Could they retrieve a bunch of eggs and freeze them unfertilized to be fertilized 1-2 at a time later?  I know it has lower success rate, but seems like it might be easier/cheaper.  

Don’t know the success rate of that. What I posted is what someone at an Alabama IVF clinic said they might have to do. I think embryos are more stable than eggs when frozen, but it is not my field

ETA: apparently embryos survive the freeze thaw cycle better than oocytes

[NastyWoman]

Feb 22, 2024 15:30:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:28:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

My question:  Say a couple donate six eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization.  The eggs are fertilized and frozen for future use.  The couple use two of the frozen embryos and have two children.  The couple no longer need the other frozenen embryos.  What happens to them.  The couple does not wish to donate the remaining embryos to other couples who are unable to have children including through  in vitro fertilization.  The donating couple, under current Alabama law are unable to destroy the  embryos as they are now considered actual children.

What then?  Do the embryos stay frozen for eternity if the state law remains in place forever?  Wouldn't that be child abuse?

Posting the above on the other thread about this issue.

Yes, they will have to pay to store them indefinitely.

Fun thing will be when they divorce, and one of them wants to destroy them so they do not become a parent against their will. Want to bet that the courts will allow implantation despite one of them objecting.

or neither one wants them. They will be forced on one of the partners and the other one will have to pay "child support". 
Another one: remember the cartoon the Jetsons and how many of those futuristic things have become reality (Zoom, e-medicine, shopping, and (not quite as fancy as Rosie) the Roomba? What if we develop the technology for an artificial womb and someone  decides it is child cruelty to leave the embryos frozen and decides to let them fully develop. Whose responsibility would those now fully developed human beings be? The lafents - who may be long deceased, the person who let them develop (could that person be charged with kidnapping since s/he took the " kids" without permission?), the facility, the state? 
I don't believe there are currently laws in place to hold siblings financially responsible but anything seems to be possible nowadays. So here you are in your 70s enjoying a well earned retirement and someone drops of a baby on your doorstep with the message: he is yours, raise him and remember  we are watching you!

I better stop now or I will end up writing that stupid book right here and now

[Tennesseer]

God didn't want to 'Thou Shall Not'  allow in vitro fertilization on the Ten Commandment tablets only because He didn't want a third tablet to only have one 'Thou Shall Not' on it.  Would have looked awkward. Plus Moses only had two arms.

So the Alabama supreme court took care of it.

[chiver78]

Feb 22, 2024 16:01:24 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

chiver78 or any other mod, we are starting to say the same things on both threads, is it not best to merge them?

got it. Tenn started his thread a few minutes before yours, so this one will merge into that one. 

-chiver mod

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 17:53:06 GMT -5 @pooks said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:29:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Not going to need a law. One of the solutions I read about said that they would only retrieve and fertilize 1-2 eggs. If that cycle failed, you go back and retrieve more eggs. More risk to the women, more costs to the people going through this, and I suspect that Insurance Companies will balk at paying for so many cycles. They will be well on their way to banning IVF without passing a law. It will be interesting to see how much these red states will get away with until their citizens say enough and elect someone other than a republican. They don't appear to have reached that point yet

Could they retrieve a bunch of eggs and freeze them unfertilized to be fertilized 1-2 at a time later?  I know that method has a lower success rate, but seems like it might be easier/cheaper.  

From my understanding, the eggs themselves do not freeze well.  The embryos are small clumps of cells, maybe 16 or 32 cells?  I don’t remember how many doublings they go through to get to the stage where they can be frozen.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 22, 2024 17:47:55 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:45:14 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

And if an overworked tech lets a liquid nitrogen tank run dry, is it mass murder?

Obviously. Silly question. We are about 2 steps away from “Every sperm is sacred” for any Monty Python fans out there

I actually had the same thought!  

[soupandstew]

I am perhaps (probably) wrong but I think the custody of frozen embryos has already been litigated.  I also seem to recall cases where frozen eggs or sperm were the subject of litigation where the donor had passed and their partner or parent(s) was seeking custody.  This is where it gets weird in law, is an egg or sperm property or person, human or chattel.  

As others have said, the Alabama legislation is just a precursor to a ban on IVF, freezing of embryos, eggs, and sperm, and contraception.  Next up, restricting meaningful legal existence aka voting rights, employment, SS to anyone not a "natural born" person.  Sounds far-fetched, right?  Couldn't possibly happen, uh huh.

[busymom]

Feb 22, 2024 16:44:18 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:37:05 GMT -5 busymom said:

     After we left Florida, we spoke to a couple of doctors here about that state's problem with healthcare.  Two of our doctors told us they have patients who live "down South", but continue to drive back North to their doctors to fill their prescriptions & monitor their health.  That alone tells you what our experience was like in Florida.  Florida doctors wouldn't even direct you to specialists they trusted or try to help find you one.  We really felt alone there trying to navigate their health system, or lack of one.  Nice state, if you live to enjoy it.  

Medicine in Florida is like the Wild West. Highest incidence of medicare fraud. I have see records of patients who were cared for down there and i would be like WTF are they thinking. My wife's friend is a snow bird, she had a medical issue down there, and trying to find the care she needed was a nightmare. Unfortunately, I think many physicians move there to avoid a state income tax and to e able to make a boatload of money without much risk of oversite or malpractice suits, and the atmosphere drags people who want to do a good job down. No thanks.

     The general attitude is different there.  Kind of like "my give-a-darn is busted".  I had a surgeon who was frequently posting pictures of his fishing boat, so you know where HIS priorities were.  Patients are merely an afterthought, and not a priority.  Leisure is king!  

[chiver78]

Feb 21, 2024 13:34:06 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 21, 2024 13:17:30 GMT -5 scgal said:

YES a step in the right direction

1 So IVF should be illegal?
2 Someone who does something that causes a miscarriage committed murder/manslaughter?
3 A missed period followed by hemorrhage is a crime?
4 Someone who is pregnant can drive in a HOV lane?
5 A pregnant women can claim a tax deduction that year, even if she did not give birth?
6 Should birth control be illegal since it may interfere with pregnancy?

Until you are willing to provide help to people who are pregnant, this is all just an attempt to control women. But you continue to show your true colors. Since a significant number of fertilized ovum never implant, develop, or miscarry, this ruling is asinine. And the judge who quoted the bible is out of control. Would you be OK with a judge who is Muslim quoting the Koran in a ruling.

someone else may have said this already, and if so I apologize, but a pregnant woman in TX used an HOV lane in the last year or so. she was ticketed, which she fought, and lost. we might have had a thread on it, as well.

[djAdvocate]

i remember that. she argued that she was carrying a person.

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 22, 2024 20:25:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i remember that. she argued that she was carrying a person.

In Alabama she is.

[happyhoix]

Feb 22, 2024 17:42:07 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:19:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

I do not understand it either. I can only guess that IVF is “unnatural” and that it creates these “excess babies” that are discarded and we can’t have that

I think this is it. If you want a baby, pray for a miracle. If you have a fetus without a brain that will die at birth, pray that God gives you a miracle. If you get raped and get pregnant because of it, God gave you a miracle.

I will point out these same people will go to a doctor for a broken leg and call the fire department when their home catches on fire, so they don’t avoid ALL human intervention, just the parts having to do with sex.

Read something yesterday where far right evangelical types want to make sex something done only for procreation, not recreation, so they want to outlaw all forms of birth control. Don’t want to get pregnant- don’t have sex, because that’s what sex is for.

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 23, 2024 8:53:59 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 22, 2024 17:42:07 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I do not understand it either. I can only guess that IVF is “unnatural” and that it creates these “excess babies” that are discarded and we can’t have that

I think this is it. If you want a baby, pray for a miracle. If you have a fetus without a brain that will die at birth, pray that God gives you a miracle. If you get raped and get pregnant because of it, God gave you a miracle.

I will point out these same people will go to a doctor for a broken leg and call the fire department when their home catches on fire, so they don’t avoid ALL human intervention, just the parts having to do with sex.

Read something yesterday where far right evangelical types want to make sex something done only for procreation, not recreation, so they want to outlaw all forms of birth control. Don’t want to get pregnant- don’t have sex, because that’s what sex is for.

Yeah, because men never had sex for recreation in the old days/s.
They seem to forget there is a reason that prostitution is called the world’s oldest profession and has a prominent place in the New Testament

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Feb 23, 2024 8:58:50 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Feb 23, 2024 8:53:59 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think this is it. If you want a baby, pray for a miracle. If you have a fetus without a brain that will die at birth, pray that God gives you a miracle. If you get raped and get pregnant because of it, God gave you a miracle.

I will point out these same people will go to a doctor for a broken leg and call the fire department when their home catches on fire, so they don’t avoid ALL human intervention, just the parts having to do with sex.

Read something yesterday where far right evangelical types want to make sex something done only for procreation, not recreation, so they want to outlaw all forms of birth control. Don’t want to get pregnant- don’t have sex, because that’s what sex is for.

Yeah, because men never had sex for recreation in the old days/s.
They seem to forget there is a reason that prostitution is called the world’s oldest profession and has a prominent place in the New Testament

MEN have sex for fun.    MEN have the right to sex not only for pleasure but to fulfill their manly destiny of having heirs.

Proper God fearing women are supposed to lie back and take it.  If we do not willing submit then men have every right to take it from us.   Being trapped barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen is a blessing from God.  We are fulfilling the purpose for which God put us on Earth.

It's all about control.  I have no right to my body only men have the right to decide what is done with my body be it forcing me to have sex or forcing me to carry their seed.

That is the sole reason for my existence.  The use and pleasure of men.


Women who enjoy sex and give it freely are whores and are to be treated as such and punished by society.

[Tiny]

Feb 22, 2024 17:19:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I’m not clear on why Republicans want to get rid of IVF. I thought they wanted more babies (and white ones, too). Is it that IVF is making upper middle class babies and they don’t like that. They only like poorly educated, desperate people?

IVF makes women pregnant, which limits them - so that isn’t it. Is it because they think women are using IVF as a tool to delay pregnancy, and they want to get girls all knocked up at a younger age?

Any insight?

I think the issue with IVF is religion based. I know back in the day the Catholic Church denounced it (but it didn't stop "good Catholics" from using it to solve their infertility issues). I suspect many Christian denominations denounce it as well.

At the very least it goes with the anti abortion agenda. To outlaw abortion they needed "life begins at conception" to be the rule. And IVF makes lots of embryos that don't get implanted. Isn't there the option to have multiple embryos implanted (some don't make it, some do) and then to choose the healthiest/best implanted one to continue while the others are removed (I guess that would be selectively aborted?) or to discontinue the pregnancy if problems develop early in the pregnancy (to mom or to the implanted embryo)? This may be "info" I received while still attending Catholic Church back in the 80's.

FWIW: I don't have a moral or ethical issue with IVF or Abortion. Both generally facilitate more "good in the world" than "bad in the world" in my mind.


The thing about religion is it's not about "humans" it's about a God (or Gods) and what humans OWE God/Gods. It doesn't matter if abortion has positives for humans. It's NOT good for God - so humans shouldn't do it. If a woman dies because they couldn't get an abortion - God's good with it - it was good for the woman. If having unwanted children burdens a family (even if it's a married couple) - God's good with it - it's part of His plan. The old cliche: God doesn't give people more than can bear.

[Tennesseer]

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian

In 49 states, this is a caterpillar.

In Alabama, it's a butterfly.