Michigan attorney general charges 'false electors' over...

[Tennesseer]

Let's keep these charges coming. And where did Republicans get the idea this was a legal thing to do?

Michigan attorney general charges 'false electors' over efforts to overturn the 2020 election
Sixteen people forged documents and claimed to be "duly elected and qualified electors" for the state of Michigan, Attorney General Dana Nessel said.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel announced Tuesday that she has filed charges against 16 people who signed paperwork falsely claiming that President Donald Trump had won the 2020 election as part of a scheme to overturn the results.

U.S. presidents are technically voted in by slates of electors from each state who cast their votes for the candidate selected by their states’ popular vote. In December 2020, as Trump tried to overturn the results of the election, his allies readied alternative slates of electors in several states.

These appear to be the first charges filed against fake electors.

The announcement came the same day Trump said he has been notified that he is the target of an investigation by a Washington-based grand jury examining the Jan. 6 riot and efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

The 16 people being charged in Michigan allegedly met in the basement of the state's Republican Party headquarters and signed multiple certificates claiming they were “the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the United States of America for the state of Michigan,” Nessel said in recorded remarks.

“That was a lie. They weren’t the duly elected and qualified electors, and each of the defendants knew it,” she continued.

Rest of article here: Michigan attorney general charges 'false electors' over efforts to overturn the 2020 election

[Tennesseer]

Those charged named in the linked article below.

The sixteen were each charged with:

*  One count of Conspiracy to Commit Forgery, a 14-year felony,

*  Two counts of Forgery, a 14-year felony,

*  One count of Conspiracy to Commit Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony,

*  One count of Uttering and Publishing, a 14-year felony,

*  One count of Conspiracy to Commit Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony, and,

*  Two counts of Election Law Forgery, a 5-year felony.


Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel Charges 16 ‘False Electors’ with Election Law and Forgery Felonies

[billisonboard]

I am going to follow this situation with great interest. These people were clearly delusional in what they did and attempted to do. But were they engaged in a criminal activity or a misguided "petition (to) the Government for a redress of grievances"? I know they were wrong. Should that be a crime? They didn't attempt to secretly slip their paper into stack for it to, surprise - surprise, be read into the record. Just not convinced on this part of the prosecutions.

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 16:13:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am going to follow this situation with great interest. These people were clearly delusional in what they did and attempted to do. But were they engaged in a criminal activity or a misguided "petition (to) the Government for a redress of grievances"? I know they were wrong. Should that be a crime? They didn't attempt to secretly slip their paper into stack for it to, surprise - surprise, be read into the record. Just not convinced on this part of the prosecutions.

How about if we just give them 14 years for criminal stupidity and be done with it?  

[happyhoix]

Jul 18, 2023 16:13:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am going to follow this situation with great interest. These people were clearly delusional in what they did and attempted to do. But were they engaged in a criminal activity or a misguided "petition (to) the Government for a redress of grievances"? I know they were wrong. Should that be a crime? They didn't attempt to secretly slip their paper into stack for it to, surprise - surprise, be read into the record. Just not convinced on this part of the prosecutions.

Yeah I don’t think they should be going after these guys - they should go after whoever it was that came to town pushing the argument that this was legal and, in fact, the only way to save the country. Giuliani, or Powell, or whoever - that’s who should get jail time. 

Maybe they’re charging these guys as a way to get them to turn against whoever signed them up for this. 

I think in Georgia the DA gave deals to the fake electors in exchange for them spilling the tea about who planned it. E.g., Donald. 

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 17:07:59 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 16:13:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am going to follow this situation with great interest. These people were clearly delusional in what they did and attempted to do. But were they engaged in a criminal activity or a misguided "petition (to) the Government for a redress of grievances"? I know they were wrong. Should that be a crime? They didn't attempt to secretly slip their paper into stack for it to, surprise - surprise, be read into the record. Just not convinced on this part of the prosecutions.

How about if we just give them 14 years for criminal stupidity and be done with it?  

Those charged: 3 are in their mid 50's, 5 are mid to upper 60's, 6 in their 70's, 2 in their 80's. I say life and be done with them.

[pulmonarymd]

Did they knowingly lie about being electors? If so, they should be prosecuted. I do not care if they were stupid or del. They attested to something that wasn’t true. They should be made an example of. Now, if they wish to help us convict someone higher on the food chain they could then get leniency

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 18:08:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Did they knowingly lie about being electors? If so, they should be prosecuted. I do not care if they were stupid or del. They attested to something that wasn’t true. They should be made an example of. Now, if they wish to help us convict someone higher on the food chain they could then get leniency

People lie all the time about a lot of shit. Did they engage in any action that a reasonable person would be deceived into thinking that they were actually members of the Electoral College?

[billisonboard]

There is a chance that in 2024 a state legislature will override the popular vote in the presidential election and award that state's electoral college votes to Donald Trump. If that were to happen, it is my hope that a member of Congress stands up on the day of the count and says, "In my hand is a paper that shows the votes of the properly elected Electoral College members. I submit this document and call on us to recognize it as the legitimate votes for the state of ..."

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 18, 2023 18:17:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 18:08:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Did they knowingly lie about being electors? If so, they should be prosecuted. I do not care if they were stupid or del. They attested to something that wasn’t true. They should be made an example of. Now, if they wish to help us convict someone higher on the food chain they could then get leniency

People lie all the time about a lot of shit. Did they engage in any action that a reasonable person would be deceived into thinking that they were actually members of the Electoral College?

Did they submit the paperwork? If so, they committed a crime. Easy as that

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 18:54:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 18, 2023 18:17:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

People lie all the time about a lot of shit. Did they engage in any action that a reasonable person would be deceived into thinking that they were actually members of the Electoral College?

Did they submit the paperwork? If so, they committed a crime. Easy as that

Trump didn't say, "Storm the Capitol" either.

[billisonboard]

I have been doing some research. 14 of the 16 "fake electors" (typed that way because that seems to be standard accepted practice) were in fact non-elected candidates for the Electoral College in 2020. If Trump had carried the state, they would have been the voting members of the Electoral College. 2 were called in to replace candidates who chose not to be there. So what they submitted was in their minds totally accurate based on their belief that Trump actual won the state. State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent.

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 19:39:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I have been doing some research. 14 of the 16 "fake electors" (typed that way because that seems to be standard accepted practice) were in fact non-elected candidates for the Electoral College in 2020. If Trump had carried the state, they would have been the voting members of the Electoral College. 2 were called in to replace candidates who chose not to be there. So what they submitted was in their minds totally accurate based on their belief that Trump actual won the state. State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent.

If that were true, why did everyone go to such great effort to try and ensure secrecy?  

These 16 fake electors, charging documents say, took extra steps to keep their plot secret.

Two Michigan GOP staffers told investigators they stood guard at the entrance of the building in Lansing during the meeting, allowing only the "Republican candidates for electors" inside. The two staffers said they denied entry to a film crew on site, as well as the lawmaker husband of one of the fake electors charged on Tuesday, Michigan Republican Party co-Chairwoman Meshawn Maddock.

The fake electors were told no recording equipment was allowed inside the building and they were asked to surrender their cell phones to safeguard against possible recording, prosecutors said. The cell phones were put in a box and kept away from the electors as they met, according to charging documents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of the fake electors expressed frustration about how other fake electors were talking about the fake transmission of votes to Congress, according to charging documents.

One of the defendants, Kathleen Berden, texted her complaints to John Haggard, another fake elector, about fake elector Mashawn Maddock's post about the process on Facebook.

"I see Meshawn posted on facebook even though we were all asked to keep silent as to not draw attention to what the other states were doing similar to ours!" Berden wrote in a text message obtained by prosecutors.

"I am not a big fan in facebook or have a computer at home. Was she not told at the meeting to keep quite [sic]," Haggard complained in response, according to prosecutors.
link

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 22:00:55 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 19:39:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I have been doing some research. 14 of the 16 "fake electors" (typed that way because that seems to be standard accepted practice) were in fact non-elected candidates for the Electoral College in 2020. If Trump had carried the state, they would have been the voting members of the Electoral College. 2 were called in to replace candidates who chose not to be there. So what they submitted was in their minds totally accurate based on their belief that Trump actual won the state. State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent.

If that were true, why did everyone go to such great effort to try and ensure secrecy?  

These 16 fake electors, charging documents say, took extra steps to keep their plot secret.

Two Michigan GOP staffers told investigators they stood guard at the entrance of the building in Lansing during the meeting, allowing only the "Republican candidates for electors" inside. The two staffers said they denied entry to a film crew on site, as well as the lawmaker husband of one of the fake electors charged on Tuesday, Michigan Republican Party co-Chairwoman Meshawn Maddock.

The fake electors were told no recording equipment was allowed inside the building and they were asked to surrender their cell phones to safeguard against possible recording, prosecutors said. The cell phones were put in a box and kept away from the electors as they met, according to charging documents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of the fake electors expressed frustration about how other fake electors were talking about the fake transmission of votes to Congress, according to charging documents.

One of the defendants, Kathleen Berden, texted her complaints to John Haggard, another fake elector, about fake elector Mashawn Maddock's post about the process on Facebook.

"I see Meshawn posted on facebook even though we were all asked to keep silent as to not draw attention to what the other states were doing similar to ours!" Berden wrote in a text message obtained by prosecutors.

"I am not a big fan in facebook or have a computer at home. Was she not told at the meeting to keep quite [sic]," Haggard complained in response, according to prosecutors.
link

Because officials were still working to steal the election. They needed to keep their plans secret so the rightful winner wouldn't be thwarted.

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 22:09:52 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 22:00:55 GMT -5 tallguy said:

If that were true, why did everyone go to such great effort to try and ensure secrecy?  

Because officials were still working to steal the election. They needed to keep their plans secret so the rightful winner wouldn't be thwarted.

Yes, it was THEIR officials trying to steal the election, which makes them part of the conspiracy.  Kills the defense that it was legitimate action based on honest belief.  Could they flip for lighter sentences?  I'd probably be okay with that, as long as the main conspirators got heavy sentences.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 18, 2023 19:39:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I have been doing some research. 14 of the 16 "fake electors" (typed that way because that seems to be standard accepted practice) were in fact non-elected candidates for the Electoral College in 2020. If Trump had carried the state, they would have been the voting members of the Electoral College. 2 were called in to replace candidates who chose not to be there. So what they submitted was in their minds totally accurate based on their belief that Trump actual won the state. State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent.

Their intent was to alter the election and thwart the peaceful transfer of power. Opinion (that Trump won) is not the same as fact (that trump didn’t win).

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 22:47:21 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 18, 2023 19:39:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I have been doing some research. 14 of the 16 "fake electors" (typed that way because that seems to be standard accepted practice) were in fact non-elected candidates for the Electoral College in 2020. If Trump had carried the state, they would have been the voting members of the Electoral College. 2 were called in to replace candidates who chose not to be there. So what they submitted was in their minds totally accurate based on their belief that Trump actual won the state. State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent.

Their intent was to alter the election and thwart the peaceful transfer of power. Opinion (that Trump won) is not the same as fact (that trump didn’t win).

Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong.

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 22:41:21 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 22:09:52 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Because officials were still working to steal the election. They needed to keep their plans secret so the rightful winner wouldn't be thwarted.

Yes, it was THEIR officials trying to steal the election, which makes them part of the conspiracy.  Kills the defense that it was legitimate action based on honest belief.  Could they flip for lighter sentences?  I'd probably be okay with that, as long as the main conspirators got heavy sentences.

It wasn't your understanding but not sure where your certainty it wasn't their honest belief comes from.

[thyme4change]

Uttering has triple the sentence as election forgery - yikes

🙃

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 23:06:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 22:47:21 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Their intent was to alter the election and thwart the peaceful transfer of power. Opinion (that Trump won) is not the same as fact (that trump didn’t win).

Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong.

Doesn't even matter if they thought they were right.  If ignorance of the law is no excuse, are you really trying to argue that ignorance of the facts is? 

You also want to suggest that, "State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent."  Again, it doesn't matter.  Criminal intent is not necessary.  People get charged and convicted every day based on the facts of the case even if there was no criminal intent.  They may not be sentenced the same, but they are still found guilty.  Even negligent homicide can land you in prison for years.  Not as long as murder, of course.  The criminally insane may not be able to form intent, but they are still locked up.  You and your neighbor have a boundary dispute.  You destroy property that actually turns out to be on his land.  Are you free from consequences?  Many examples happen every day.  Why would this be different?

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 23:12:52 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 22:41:21 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yes, it was THEIR officials trying to steal the election, which makes them part of the conspiracy.  Kills the defense that it was legitimate action based on honest belief.  Could they flip for lighter sentences?  I'd probably be okay with that, as long as the main conspirators got heavy sentences.

It wasn't your understanding but not sure where your certainty it wasn't their honest belief comes from.

Doesn't matter what they thought.

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 23:39:10 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 23:06:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong.

Doesn't even matter if they thought they were right.  If ignorance of the law is no excuse, are you really trying to argue that ignorance of the facts is? 

You also want to suggest that, "State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent."  Again, it doesn't matter.  Criminal intent is not necessary.  People get charged and convicted every day based on the facts of the case even if there was no criminal intent.  They may not be sentenced the same, but they are still found guilty.  Even negligent homicide can land you in prison for years.  Not as long as murder, of course.  The criminally insane may not be able to form intent, but they are still locked up.  You and your neighbor have a boundary dispute.  You destroy property that actually turns out to be on his land.  Are you free from consequences?  Many examples happen every day.  Why would this be different?

Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing.

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2023 23:41:16 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 23:12:52 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

It wasn't your understanding but not sure where your certainty it wasn't their honest belief comes from.

Doesn't matter what they thought.

It is my contention they were attempting to petition the government for redress of a wrong, a constitution right. My opinion, unlike your opinion, is that it does matter.

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 23:52:56 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 23:39:10 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Doesn't even matter if they thought they were right.  If ignorance of the law is no excuse, are you really trying to argue that ignorance of the facts is? 

You also want to suggest that, "State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent."  Again, it doesn't matter.  Criminal intent is not necessary.  People get charged and convicted every day based on the facts of the case even if there was no criminal intent.  They may not be sentenced the same, but they are still found guilty.  Even negligent homicide can land you in prison for years.  Not as long as murder, of course.  The criminally insane may not be able to form intent, but they are still locked up.  You and your neighbor have a boundary dispute.  You destroy property that actually turns out to be on his land.  Are you free from consequences?  Many examples happen every day.  Why would this be different?

Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing.

People also get charged and convicted every day for attempted crimes.  

[tallguy]

Jul 18, 2023 23:56:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 18, 2023 23:41:16 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Doesn't matter what they thought.

It is my contention they were attempting to petition the government for redress of a wrong, a constitution right. My opinion, unlike your opinion, is that it does matter.

Actually BEING right might have helped a little....   

[tallguy]

The 16 fake Trump electors who tried to convene in Michigan got a big surprise this week: felony indictments brought by the state attorney general.
And it's going to be almost impossible for them to defend against the case, argued New York University law professor and former Pentagon special counsel Ryan Goodman on CNN Tuesday evening, for one key reason: the documents they are accused of forging contain a glaring lie.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a detail that matters," agreed Goodman. "It mattered to the Trump campaign lawyer, and he said this is a problem. He is mapping out the secret memo how they can do these false electors across the seven states. Michigan may have a problem because it's a legal requirement that you have to convene in the State Capitol. That's why they obviously put it in their declaration that we are convened in the State Capitol. And it is just a falsehood."

That's significant, Goodman added, because, "They can say, oh, we thought Trump won the election and that's why we did this. Did you think you were in the Capitol? You are not in the Capitol, you were in the basement of the GOP headquarters in Lansing. That's where you were when you convened. It's a false statement that they submitted to state and federal authorities that is almost an open-and-shut forgery."

'Open-and-shut': Law professor says Michigan fake Trump electors have no defense

[tractor]

Jul 18, 2023 18:54:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 18, 2023 18:17:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

People lie all the time about a lot of shit. Did they engage in any action that a reasonable person would be deceived into thinking that they were actually members of the Electoral College?

Did they submit the paperwork? If so, they committed a crime. Easy as that

From what I read this morning, yes, all the paperwork was submitted. The AG was waiting to confirm that it was submitted before moving forward with the charges. Once they found copies in the National archives, they had all the proof they needed. Our states GOP is a mess (a state board meeting recently broke out into a brawl and the police were called), so this is not surprising to me.

[happyhoix]

Jul 19, 2023 0:03:46 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 18, 2023 23:52:56 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing.

People also get charged and convicted every day for attempted crimes.  

Yeah. The Michigan AG said she prosecutes people every day who forged voting papers. She said she can’t prosecute that kind of forgery without also prosecuting these fake electors or that would make it look like politicically powerful people are above the law.

[happyhoix]

Jul 18, 2023 23:23:30 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Uttering has triple the sentence as election forgery - yikes

🙃

What is ‘uttering’ - just talking about the crime? Like conspiring?

[billisonboard]

Jul 19, 2023 1:54:35 GMT -5 tallguy said:

The 16 fake Trump electors who tried to convene in Michigan got a big surprise this week: felony indictments brought by the state attorney general.
And it's going to be almost impossible for them to defend against the case, argued New York University law professor and former Pentagon special counsel Ryan Goodman on CNN Tuesday evening, for one key reason: the documents they are accused of forging contain a glaring lie.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a detail that matters," agreed Goodman. "It mattered to the Trump campaign lawyer, and he said this is a problem. He is mapping out the secret memo how they can do these false electors across the seven states. Michigan may have a problem because it's a legal requirement that you have to convene in the State Capitol. That's why they obviously put it in their declaration that we are convened in the State Capitol. And it is just a falsehood."

That's significant, Goodman added, because, "They can say, oh, we thought Trump won the election and that's why we did this. Did you think you were in the Capitol? You are not in the Capitol, you were in the basement of the GOP headquarters in Lansing. That's where you were when you convened. It's a false statement that they submitted to state and federal authorities that is almost an open-and-shut forgery."

'Open-and-shut': Law professor says Michigan fake Trump electors have no defense

Yeah the paper mis-states where they met. Is it a detail that will make the case for a jury? Like I said, it will be an interesting case to follow.