billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 8:59:49 GMT -5
Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing. People also get charged and convicted every day for attempted crimes. True. People aren't charged every day also.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 19, 2023 9:57:24 GMT -5
Yeah the paper mis-states where they met. Is it a detail that will make the case for a jury? Like I said, it will be an interesting case to follow. Not a simple mis-statement. Further evidence of the fraud.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 10:12:07 GMT -5
People also get charged and convicted every day for attempted crimes. Yeah. The Michigan AG said she prosecutes people every day who forged voting papers. She said she can’t prosecute that kind of forgery without also prosecuting these fake electors or that would make it look like politicically powerful people are above the law. I think this is a false equivalent. When voter fraud goes unchecked, votes get into the system and there is no way to erase them. This situation is structurally different these votes would only have been accepted by an act of Congress, the people constitutionally tasked with that job.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2023 12:24:42 GMT -5
Let's keep these charges coming. And where did Republicans get the idea this was a legal thing to do? Michigan attorney general charges 'false electors' over efforts to overturn the 2020 electionSixteen people forged documents and claimed to be "duly elected and qualified electors" for the state of Michigan, Attorney General Dana Nessel said. Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel announced Tuesday that she has filed charges against 16 people who signed paperwork falsely claiming that President Donald Trump had won the 2020 election as part of a scheme to overturn the results. U.S. presidents are technically voted in by slates of electors from each state who cast their votes for the candidate selected by their states’ popular vote. In December 2020, as Trump tried to overturn the results of the election, his allies readied alternative slates of electors in several states. These appear to be the first charges filed against fake electors. The announcement came the same day Trump said he has been notified that he is the target of an investigation by a Washington-based grand jury examining the Jan. 6 riot and efforts to overturn the 2020 election. The 16 people being charged in Michigan allegedly met in the basement of the state's Republican Party headquarters and signed multiple certificates claiming they were “the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the United States of America for the state of Michigan,” Nessel said in recorded remarks. “That was a lie. They weren’t the duly elected and qualified electors, and each of the defendants knew it,” she continued. Rest of article here: Michigan attorney general charges 'false electors' over efforts to overturn the 2020 electioni LOVE these state level charges, because there is so little Trump can do about them. agree with everyone else here who says "keep them coming".
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 19, 2023 14:55:22 GMT -5
Doesn't even matter if they thought they were right. If ignorance of the law is no excuse, are you really trying to argue that ignorance of the facts is? You also want to suggest that, "State of mind is significant in establishing criminal intent." Again, it doesn't matter. Criminal intent is not necessary. People get charged and convicted every day based on the facts of the case even if there was no criminal intent. They may not be sentenced the same, but they are still found guilty. Even negligent homicide can land you in prison for years. Not as long as murder, of course. The criminally insane may not be able to form intent, but they are still locked up. You and your neighbor have a boundary dispute. You destroy property that actually turns out to be on his land. Are you free from consequences? Many examples happen every day. Why would this be different? Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing. So? Lets say a pedophile tries to marry a minor child, he thinks he is right by whatever religion or cult says he can have a child bride. His actions are caught before the child is harmed. Nothing meaningful happened, no one died, no property was destroyed, etc. So we should just let him go? I am not sure what you are arguing here.....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2023 15:09:05 GMT -5
Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get other to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing. So? Lets say a pedophile tries to marry a minor child, he thinks he is right by whatever religion or cult says he can have a child bride. His actions are caught before the child is harmed. Nothing meaningful happened, no one died, no property was destroyed, etc. So we should just let him go? I am not sure what you are arguing here..... conspiracy charges do not require that a crime be committed, only planned. if that is not enough for you, then we should free a lot of terrorists jailed on that charge, bills. i don't get you a lot of the time, but i REALLY don't get you on this. the pen is mightier than the sword. let's hope these imbeciles fall on theirs.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 15:31:33 GMT -5
Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing. So? Lets say a pedophile tries to marry a minor child, he thinks he is right by whatever religion or cult says he can have a child bride. His actions are caught before the child is harmed. Nothing meaningful happened, no one died, no property was destroyed, etc. So we should just let him go? I am not sure what you are arguing here..... What do you mean exactly by "tries to marry"? What "actions are caught"? Those are too vague for me to reasonably respond. What I am arguing is that what took place was a political action that had no consequence. I am arguing it is protected by the 1st Amendment right "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." They were communicating to Congress their belief that they were the rightful electors for the State of Michigan. Congress had the constitutional responsibility to accept or reject such. They accepted a different slate of votes, properly in my opinion. That doesn't mean that next time, should similar arise, that I wouldn't back a rogue slate of voters. It is protecting that future possibility that I am arguing for here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 15:40:21 GMT -5
Murder! Pedophilia! Terrorism! Paper signed and submitted for consideration!
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 19, 2023 15:46:38 GMT -5
And they can argue that at their trial. The AG believes they committed a crime. They can present a defense. It isn’t like people aren’t accused and indicted of questionable crimes every day. They can have their day in court, take the stand, and present your arguments. If they are acquitted they will be free.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2023 16:57:37 GMT -5
And they can argue that at their trial. The AG believes they committed a crime. They can present a defense. It isn’t like people aren’t accused and indicted of questionable crimes every day. They can have their day in court, take the stand, and present your arguments. If they are acquitted they will be free. exactly. and to be clear, i am perfectly fine with that, so long as it is not some 1% judge like Cannon. in her case, i would shrug, and express disappointment that it fell under her purview, but i would not "object" to whatever ruling she comes up with, even though i might disagree. the court system doesn't produce perfect results. but i will take it over the electoral system, thanks.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jul 19, 2023 19:31:56 GMT -5
Their intent was to alter the election and thwart the peaceful transfer of power. Opinion (that Trump won) is not the same as fact (that trump didn’t win). Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong. They were not trying to use the power of Congress, they were trying to usurp it. That is significantly different. The lie about their location is a blatant example that they were not concerned with legally correcting a perceived wrong. I think it is important to prosecute this. For them to do this with no consequences makes a mockery of the idea that we live in a society of law and order.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2023 19:50:45 GMT -5
Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong. They were not trying to use the power of Congress, they were trying to usurp it. That is significantly different. The lie about their location is a blatant example that they were not concerned with legally correcting a perceived wrong. I think it is important to prosecute this. For them to do this with no consequences makes a mockery of the idea that we live in a society of law and order. you know, there is really no need to debate this. the courts WILL sort this out. i am reasonably confident that it will answer all questions and doubts. the only way it stops is for congress to interfere not only in elections, but in the judiciary. which is certainly possible. after j6, i would not put anything past the 147 seditionists that voted to overturn the election.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 20:02:01 GMT -5
Their intent was to correct the election results. They were attempting to peacefully use the power of Congress to do that. Yes they were wrong. They were not trying to use the power of Congress, they were trying to usurp it. That is significantly different. The lie about their location is a blatant example that they were not concerned with legally correcting a perceived wrong. I think it is important to prosecute this. For them to do this with no consequences makes a mockery of the idea that we live in a society of law and order. They had no way in the process to usurp congressional power. Congress had the final say on accepting or rejecting votes. Explaining how Congress settles electoral college disputes. I think our society has always had a tenuous claim to being one of law and order. The concept is usually only trotted out when it will help someone meet a desired goal.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2023 20:13:46 GMT -5
They were not trying to use the power of Congress, they were trying to usurp it. That is significantly different. The lie about their location is a blatant example that they were not concerned with legally correcting a perceived wrong. I think it is important to prosecute this. For them to do this with no consequences makes a mockery of the idea that we live in a society of law and order. you know, there is really no need to debate this. the courts WILL sort this out. i am reasonably confident that it will answer all questions and doubts. the only way it stops is for congress to interfere not only in elections, but in the judiciary. which is certainly possible. after j6, i would not put anything past the 147 seditionists that voted to overturn the election. certainly "no need" (As my ex liked to say) "How 'bout them Mariners."
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2023 19:07:12 GMT -5
Nothing meaningful happened. Paper was signed. People tried to get othere to read it and act on it. They didn't. No one died by these people actions. No property we destroyed. Nothing. So? Lets say a pedophile tries to marry a minor child, he thinks he is right by whatever religion or cult says he can have a child bride. His actions are caught before the child is harmed. Nothing meaningful happened, no one died, no property was destroyed, etc. So we should just let him go? I am not sure what you are arguing here..... Marrying a minor isn’t necessarily a crime, depending on the state. If the parents give consent - children as young as 12 can get married. I’m not sure your example is as cut and dry as you may think. There is some crazy shit out there.
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