teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 2, 2023 15:29:19 GMT -5
Not the first rodeo, either. Erin Hawley has close ties with ADF/Alliance Defending Freedom - she’s also part of the FDA Mifepristone (also ADF) case.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 2, 2023 17:02:10 GMT -5
A guy has an affair with his wife's best friend, Karen. The wife finds out and they go through a bitter divorce. They fight over kids. They fight over property. They fight over who gets to keep the dog. They are sitting in court and the judge has finalized the last detail. The guy turns to his now ex and says, "Karen and I are getting married. She says that years ago you promised to work closely with her to plan her wedding down to the last detail. She demands that you follow through with your promise. Her number hasn't changed. She is expecting a call tomorrow. "
Thinking this is close to what the Supreme Court ruled people can't be forced to do.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 18:36:01 GMT -5
A guy has an affair with his wife's best friend, Karen. The wife finds out and they go through a bitter divorce. They fight over kids. They fight over property. They fight over who gets to keep the dog. They are sitting in court and the judge has finalized the last detail. The guy turns to his now ex and says, "Karen and I are getting married. She says that years ago you promised to work closely with her to plan her wedding down to the last detail. She demands that you follow through with your promise. Her number hasn't changed. She is expecting a call tomorrow. " Thinking this is close to what the Supreme Court ruled people can't be forced to do. As this is not a money transaction for services, the first wife is clear to decline.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 2, 2023 18:49:51 GMT -5
A guy has an affair with his wife's best friend, Karen. The wife finds out and they go through a bitter divorce. They fight over kids. They fight over property. They fight over who gets to keep the dog. They are sitting in court and the judge has finalized the last detail. The guy turns to his now ex and says, "Karen and I are getting married. She says that years ago you promised to work closely with her to plan her wedding down to the last detail. She demands that you follow through with your promise. Her number hasn't changed. She is expecting a call tomorrow. " Thinking this is close to what the Supreme Court ruled people can't be forced to do. As this is not a money transaction for services, the first wife is clear to decline. But doesn't she have a moral obligation to keep her word?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 19:12:44 GMT -5
As this is not a money transaction for services, the first wife is clear to decline. But doesn't she have a moral obligation to keep her word? No. No money involved unlike a paid service.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 2, 2023 20:22:32 GMT -5
As this is not a money transaction for services, the first wife is clear to decline. But doesn't she have a moral obligation to keep her word? I would argue not, in that the party of the first part (hereinafter referred to as "Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch) abrogated the terms of the implied contract. To wit, that the party of the second part (hereinafter referred as "Angry ex-wife) would not have entered into a contract under the stipulation that Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch was going to destroy Angry ex-wife's marriage and marry Angry ex-wife's former husband, thus imposing an onerous burden on Angry ex-wife far beyond the value of the original contract which was to help plan a wedding between now-Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch and a then-unknown future partner.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 20:39:17 GMT -5
But doesn't she have a moral obligation to keep her word? I would argue not, in that the party of the first part (hereinafter referred to as "Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch) abrogated the terms of the implied contract. To wit, that the party of the second part (hereinafter referred as "Angry ex-wife) would not have entered into a contract under the stipulation that Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch was going to destroy Angry ex-wife's marriage and marry Angry ex-wife's former husband, thus imposing an onerous burden on Angry ex-wife far beyond the value of the original contract which was to help plan a wedding between now-Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch and a then-unknown future partner. Readers on Reddit's AITA (Am I The Asshole) would agree with the ex-wife and you.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 2, 2023 20:56:55 GMT -5
I would argue not, in that the party of the first part (hereinafter referred to as "Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch) abrogated the terms of the implied contract. To wit, that the party of the second part (hereinafter referred as "Angry ex-wife) would not have entered into a contract under the stipulation that Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch was going to destroy Angry ex-wife's marriage and marry Angry ex-wife's former husband, thus imposing an onerous burden on Angry ex-wife far beyond the value of the original contract which was to help plan a wedding between now-Deceitful, home-wrecking b**ch and a then-unknown future partner. Readers on Reddit's AITA (Am I The Asshole) would agree with the ex-wife and you. I see an equally onerous task being forced on an individual to go against their conscience and work on a project to which they morally object in the (hypothetical) case that was the Supreme Court. What type of human being would make someone do that?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 21:57:57 GMT -5
Readers on Reddit's AITA (Am I The Asshole) would agree with the ex-wife and you. I see an equally onerous task being forced on an individual to go against their conscience and work on a project to which they morally object in the (hypothetical) case that was the Supreme Court. What type of human being would make someone do that? As there is no money exchanged mentioned in your scenario for any services rendered nor a contract to provide same, the ex-wife simply says "Sayonara" to her ex-husband and and her ex-friend.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 2, 2023 22:42:05 GMT -5
I see an equally onerous task being forced on an individual to go against their conscience and work on a project to which they morally object in the (hypothetical) case that was the Supreme Court. What type of human being would make someone do that? As there is no money exchanged mentioned in your scenario for any services rendered nor a contract to provide same, the ex-wife simply says "Sayonara" to her ex-husband and and her ex-friend. Yeah, it was an absurd attempt to come up with what it would be like to have some asshole attempt to force you to work with them when they have a serious issue with you.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 22:56:38 GMT -5
As there is no money exchanged mentioned in your scenario for any services rendered nor a contract to provide same, the ex-wife simply says "Sayonara" to her ex-husband and and her ex-friend. Yeah, it was an absurd attempt to come up with what it would be like to have some asshole attempt to force you to work with them when they have a serious issue with you. There was also no protected class in your scenario. All are of the same sexual orientation. And their genders are mixed. A judge would throw out any lawsuit the new wife might file.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 22:59:24 GMT -5
As there is no money exchanged mentioned in your scenario for any services rendered nor a contract to provide same, the ex-wife simply says "Sayonara" to her ex-husband and and her ex-friend. Yeah, it was an absurd attempt to come up with what it would be like to have some asshole attempt to force you to work with them when they have a serious issue with you. I did read the plaintiff in the case said she had no problem doing paid work for homosexuals. Just not same-sex marriage work. Too late at night to look it up to cite it though.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 2, 2023 23:14:35 GMT -5
Not sleepy yet. Mention of Lorie Smith doing paid blog site design for gays but not for same-sex marriages can be found in the linked article below. It will not allow me to copy/paste using my tablet. linkSide note: Does Lorie Smith think all members of the LBGTQ community are celibate?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 2, 2023 23:55:40 GMT -5
Yeah, it was an absurd attempt to come up with what it would be like to have some asshole attempt to force you to work with them when they have a serious issue with you. There was also no protected class in your scenario. All are of the same sexual orientation. And their genders are mixed. A judge would throw out any lawsuit the new wife might file. It wasn't the legal shit I was attempting to address. It is about the mind fuck.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jul 3, 2023 0:39:23 GMT -5
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jul 3, 2023 0:44:12 GMT -5
Okay, I’ll play the what if. (Which I hate doing by the way.)
Here is one that was actually presented during my master’s program. That was 19 years ago, and I’m sleepy, so I might have a few discrepancies.
A teacher does not believe that pedophilia is wrong. He believes that it is an egregious social or religious construct. However because he is a teacher, he refrains from participating in such acts.
He publishes an essay stating his beliefs. There is zero evidence that he has ever participated in pedophilia.
Can I say I don’t want him at my kids’ school because of religious reasons?
If I’m a business owner, and this person comes into my business, can I toss him?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 3, 2023 8:22:41 GMT -5
Okay, I’ll play the what if. (Which I hate doing by the way.) Here is one that was actually presented during my master’s program. That was 19 years ago, and I’m sleepy, so I might have a few discrepancies. A teacher does not believe that pedophilia is wrong. He believes that it is an egregious social or religious construct. However because he is a teacher, he refrains from participating in such acts. He publishes an essay stating his beliefs. There is zero evidence that he has ever participated in pedophilia. Can I say I don’t want him at my kids’ school because of religious reasons? If I’m a business owner, and this person comes into my business, can I toss him? Yes, you can say you don't want him there for any reason including religious ones. If I were on the school board with hiring/firing, I would likely vote to fire him based on his poor decision to publish the essay. If he is acting within the norms of customer behavior while in your business, I would say you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit by tossing him.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 3, 2023 9:13:41 GMT -5
There was also no protected class in your scenario. All are of the same sexual orientation. And their genders are mixed. A judge would throw out any lawsuit the new wife might file. It wasn't the legal shit I was attempting to address. It is about the mind fuck. Sorry to disappoint you, Bill. For many years, my employment revolved around conducting EEO investigations and other legal issues. My mind is geared that way.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 3, 2023 9:33:27 GMT -5
It wasn't the legal shit I was attempting to address. It is about the mind fuck. Sorry to disappoint you, Bill. For many years, my employment revolved around conducting EEO investigations and other legal issues. My mind is geared that way. That makes sense. I can see where having to live in that type of environment makes it necessary to ignore that there are real human beings having to deal with the emotional side of situations.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jul 3, 2023 12:16:42 GMT -5
Honestly I wouldn't want someone opposed to me and my beliefs creating creative content for me. I'm betting no one would have ever sued her to provide her services. This was a publicity stunt. The way I understand the ruling the baker still needs to make the cake.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 3, 2023 12:22:56 GMT -5
Honestly I wouldn't want someone opposed to me and my beliefs creating creative content for me. I'm betting no one would have ever sued her to provide her services. This was a publicity stunt. The way I understand the ruling the baker still needs to make the cake. What type of sick mind would want to force another human being to do that. And it is also my understanding the cake would still be required to be baked.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 3, 2023 12:37:05 GMT -5
If they do a poor job they are likely to get a poor review. Seems like we have a mechanism to deal with that. If they want to stay in business they should want to please their customers.
I have to see many people who do and say things I do not agree with. Am I allowed to not treat someone who says racist things? Who threatens me? Or do you believe I should treat them in an emergency? You trust I will do it to the best of my ability, or do you think I will half ass it? Are we different? Held to a higher standard?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 3, 2023 12:43:01 GMT -5
bill likes his musical interludes. I'm going with a fiction break. I suggest reading Jodi Picoult's Small Great Things for a thought-provoking story about almost exactly this. the difference? the nurse on the receiving end of the racist garbage is black.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 3, 2023 12:45:39 GMT -5
If they do a poor job they are likely to get a poor review. Seems like we have a mechanism to deal with that. If they want to stay in business they should want to please their customers. I have to see many people who do and say things I do not agree with. Am I allowed to not treat someone who says racist things? Who threatens me? Or do you believe I should treat them in an emergency? You trust I will do it to the best of my ability, or do you think I will half ass it? Are we different? Held to a higher standard? Yes they should want to ... But should they be forced? Do you have to see them? Or have you voluntarily accepted a job that puts you in that position?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 3, 2023 12:50:30 GMT -5
If they do a poor job they are likely to get a poor review. Seems like we have a mechanism to deal with that. If they want to stay in business they should want to please their customers. I have to see many people who do and say things I do not agree with. Am I allowed to not treat someone who says racist things? Who threatens me? Or do you believe I should treat them in an emergency? You trust I will do it to the best of my ability, or do you think I will half ass it? Are we different? Held to a higher standard? Yes they should want to ... But should they be forced? Do you have to see them? Or have you voluntarily accepted a job that puts you in that position? In my specialty, yes, I have to see them. Emtala laws require us to treat all emergency patients. So, you can be as racist, sexist, violent as you want, but if you have a medical emergency, we are obligated to care for you.If we fear for our safety, we still have to care for them, although we can call security or the police. Care to repeal EMTALA? Never mind how many people threaten to sue us when they do not get what they want. This has become a huge issue with the violence that has been increasing against healthcare workers.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 3, 2023 12:53:56 GMT -5
bill likes his musical interludes. I'm going with a fiction break. I suggest reading Jodi Picoult's Small Great Things for a thought-provoking story about almost exactly this. the difference? the nurse on the receiving end of the racist garbage is black. I have seen patients say things like "I don't want that n***** doctor treating me". Racist things about Islamic physicians. Sexist things. Calling female physicians "sweetie". Asking them out on dates. Telling them they are only doing this to find a rich husband. The abuse thrown our way is ridiculous, and I am insulated from it by being a white male. I "only" get threatened
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 3, 2023 12:55:39 GMT -5
bill likes his musical interludes. I'm going with a fiction break. I suggest reading Jodi Picoult's Small Great Things for a thought-provoking story about almost exactly this. the difference? the nurse on the receiving end of the racist garbage is black. I have seen patients say things like "I don't want that n***** doctor treating me". Racist things about Islamic physicians. Sexist things. Calling female physicians "sweetie". Asking them out on dates. Telling them they are only doing this to find a rich husband. The abuse thrown our way is ridiculous, and I am insulated from it by being a white male. I "only" get threatened and that's still pretty damn horrifying. I apologize if it came across that I was suggesting just you to read the Picoult book. I quoted you as a lead-in to it. I've got some friends IRL that are nurses, and I've heard so many stories. I hate that any of you are subjected to that, while you're doing your jobs to save their lives.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 3, 2023 13:01:43 GMT -5
Yes they should want to ... But should they be forced? Do you have to see them? Or have you voluntarily accepted a job that puts you in that position? In my specialty, yes, I have to see them. Emtala laws require us to treat all emergency patients. So, you can be as racist, sexist, violent as you want, but if you have a medical emergency, we are obligated to care for you.If we fear for our safety, we still have to care for them, although we can call security or the police. Care to repeal EMTALA? Never mind how many people threaten to sue us when they do not get what they want. This has become a huge issue with the violence that has been increasing against healthcare workers. Did you voluntarily enter that specialty? Or did you enter it prior to the 1986 passage of EMTALA? Are you forced to stay with it? Or do you actually have choice?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 3, 2023 13:19:18 GMT -5
In my specialty, yes, I have to see them. Emtala laws require us to treat all emergency patients. So, you can be as racist, sexist, violent as you want, but if you have a medical emergency, we are obligated to care for you.If we fear for our safety, we still have to care for them, although we can call security or the police. Care to repeal EMTALA? Never mind how many people threaten to sue us when they do not get what they want. This has become a huge issue with the violence that has been increasing against healthcare workers. Did you voluntarily enter that specialty? Or did you enter it prior to the 1986 passage of EMTALA? Are you forced to stay with it? Or do you actually have choice? I voluntarily chose it, but the majority of specialties deal with this in varying degrees I did choose it after 1986 Forced, no. But the reality is there are very few choices open to us after we specialize. It would require training in a whole different specialty to get away from it entirely. The opportunity cost is too great, and I like the specialty I chose. If I want to do Critical Care, I have no choice. I happen to be good at and I like it. So I take the good with the bad. But I have little sympathy for these complaints from people who CHOSE to open a public business, then look for ways around doing things that they object to.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 3, 2023 13:21:43 GMT -5
I have seen patients say things like "I don't want that n***** doctor treating me". Racist things about Islamic physicians. Sexist things. Calling female physicians "sweetie". Asking them out on dates. Telling them they are only doing this to find a rich husband. The abuse thrown our way is ridiculous, and I am insulated from it by being a white male. I "only" get threatened and that's still pretty damn horrifying. I apologize if it came across that I was suggesting just you to read the Picoult book. I quoted you as a lead-in to it. I've got some friends IRL that are nurses, and I've heard so many stories. I hate that any of you are subjected to that, while you're doing your jobs to save their lives. No, you're good. I knew what you were doing. Just amplifying it for those who want to discount it. As I said, I do not have to deal with half of what some other physicians deal with. And it is worse lower down the hierarchy. Physicians have a lot of authority, and also carry a lot of weight with administrators. Nurses, x ray techs, and others have it harder. They do not get as free a reign to say things to these patients as we do
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