chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 11, 2023 13:58:01 GMT -5
ya know, for all you whine about his attitude, yours is pretty strong as well. as far as your content. all I have to say is this sounds like it was spoken by a lily white person, that has never seen the differences POC do. I've felt it, while out in public with friends and family of color, even in the 2020s. I have had pretty frank conversations with HS classmates of color, both native to my hometown and bussed in from Boston to take advantage of the better opportunities in a suburban HS. the stories they have all told me about HS life in my lily white hometown blew my mind. the shit *I* saw was awful enough, but the things I didn't see were that much worse.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Jul 11, 2023 14:11:44 GMT -5
Well lets say 25% is due to not complying with the officer (threatening the officer) then they don't count White or Black This one can be tricky also. Do Blacks and White who don't comply get shot at the same rate? Or is one more likely than the other to be shot while the other more likely to be handcuffed or not even that? I have been pulled over 2 times in the past 2 years while carrying. Once in NC and once in SC both times I notified to the officer I was carrying a firearm and was licenced. They asked me for my id and permit along with registration and ins card. The NC officer asked me to exit the car put my hands on the hood and with 2 fingers place my gun on the car he took the gun unloaded it and asked me to get back in the car another officer pulled up stayed with me while the other ran my id. I was given a warning for speeding and was thanked for complying. The SC officer just asked me to keep my hands on the wheel waited until backup arrived they watched me while he ran my papers. Again I was thanked for being truthful and was sent on my way without a ticket. I am 100% positive if I didn't comply I would have been shot. And yes I am ok with that.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 11, 2023 14:20:44 GMT -5
This nonsense again. The disproportionate impact on minorities, coupled with the racist statements and attitudes we see(Trump being the perfect example) shows that racism is alive and well. Plenty of studies show the endemic racism in our society. To believe that racism is not involved in these actions is just sticking your head in the sand. But why should we expect anything less from you, since you still refuse to accept that gun deaths are a problem we could actually do something about if we wanted to Not the same oh its the gun crap again. OOOh an inanimate object is to blame, oh brother. There is racism, just not as much systemic as there used to be. OMG. So, because it is not "as much as it was before" we should just forget about it now. Conservatives are unbelievable. If it wasn't for that inanimate object(your words), 20 first and second graders in CT would be alive today. But you do not care.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 11, 2023 14:23:33 GMT -5
This one can be tricky also. Do Blacks and White who don't comply get shot at the same rate? Or is one more likely than the other to be shot while the other more likely to be handcuffed or not even that? I have been pulled over 2 times in the past 2 years while carrying. Once in NC and once in SC both times I notified to the officer I was carrying a firearm and was licenced. They asked me for my id and permit along with registration and ins card. The NC officer asked me to exit the car put my hands on the hood and with 2 fingers place my gun on the car he took the gun unloaded it and asked me to get back in the car another officer pulled up stayed with me while the other ran my id. I was given a warning for speeding and was thanked for complying. The SC officer just asked me to keep my hands on the wheel waited until backup arrived they watched me while he ran my papers. Again I was thanked for being truthful and was sent on my way without a ticket. I am 100% positive if I didn't comply I would have been shot. And yes I am ok with that. You just proved the point of different treatment. It took just 40 seconds for an ordinary traffic stop to turn deadly – from a police officer saying, “Hello, sir,” to him firing seven shots at a seated motorist.link
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jul 11, 2023 14:59:06 GMT -5
This one can be tricky also. Do Blacks and White who don't comply get shot at the same rate? Or is one more likely than the other to be shot while the other more likely to be handcuffed or not even that? I have been pulled over 2 times in the past 2 years while carrying. Once in NC and once in SC both times I notified to the officer I was carrying a firearm and was licenced. They asked me for my id and permit along with registration and ins card. The NC officer asked me to exit the car put my hands on the hood and with 2 fingers place my gun on the car he took the gun unloaded it and asked me to get back in the car another officer pulled up stayed with me while the other ran my id. I was given a warning for speeding and was thanked for complying. The SC officer just asked me to keep my hands on the wheel waited until backup arrived they watched me while he ran my papers. Again I was thanked for being truthful and was sent on my way without a ticket. I am 100% positive if I didn't comply I would have been shot. And yes I am ok with that. I'm not.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 11, 2023 15:13:51 GMT -5
I have been pulled over 2 times in the past 2 years while carrying. Once in NC and once in SC both times I notified to the officer I was carrying a firearm and was licenced. They asked me for my id and permit along with registration and ins card. The NC officer asked me to exit the car put my hands on the hood and with 2 fingers place my gun on the car he took the gun unloaded it and asked me to get back in the car another officer pulled up stayed with me while the other ran my id. I was given a warning for speeding and was thanked for complying. The SC officer just asked me to keep my hands on the wheel waited until backup arrived they watched me while he ran my papers. Again I was thanked for being truthful and was sent on my way without a ticket. I am 100% positive if I didn't comply I would have been shot. And yes I am ok with that. I'm not. I see this as totally irrelevant. Being 100% confident that an imaginary "if/ then" will fit perfectly in my world view just means I am 100% confident in my world view. Real world evidence already presented documents a different reality.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Jul 11, 2023 15:22:58 GMT -5
Just so I have this straight, you are so happy with the AA decision, but yet you are perfectly happy your grandkids can cheat to get "scholarships" that should go to someone more deserving by lying on their form. You should be so proud of your daughter for suggesting that. Sounds like she was brought up in a good Christian conservative home. This is why right wingers think so many people are cheating the systems, because it's what they do. Ummm, it was a joke, playing on issues in the news
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 11, 2023 15:33:32 GMT -5
This is why right wingers think so many people are cheating the systems, because it's what they do. Ummm, it was a joke, playing on issues in the news sometimes the jokes write themselves, depending on how the teller lives their life in reality. as in, <slaps knee> what about this??
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jul 11, 2023 16:59:01 GMT -5
We don't have what you have illustrated, but do have, what can only be described, as enclaves of deprivation where there are large numbers of mostly immigrant families. There are also areas of poor white families, and minorities who suffer deprivation. The solution has long been held up to be integration.... and to avoid anything divisive which would makes people feel they cant take their place in the wider community. At the risk of waxing lyrical and getting all poetic, harmony, cohesion and equality is what is needed. Thi s is why wokery is a dangerous philosophy imo because it creates such discord.You are telling little kids that they are racist and should be ashamed of themselves ,,,, and other little kids that they are victims and can never have equality. Yet if you let them play together they grow up without prejudice. I would heartily suggest that you not allow right-wing demagogues to influence or corrupt your use and understanding of language. As many on this board have previously noted over the past months, being "woke" simply means to be aware of and alert to the fact that many people are not treated equally, and to be unwilling to accept that as how society should be. The far-right has tried to corrupt that meaning, in terms of weaponizing the idea that it instead means hatred against white society, culture, and people. It doesn't. That is simply another attempt by the far-right to scare people into thinking that those same far-right are the saviors of society. The REAL reason that the far-right concentrate on such things is because they cannot sell the average American on their real agenda, so depend on instilling fear instead. It also would not sell well to say they were against empathy, enlightenment, equality, or compassion. Much easier, and more effective with far too many conservatives, to set up the "woke" straw man and then set it on fire. Let society burn? Why not, if it lets them think they can rebuild it the way they want, with themselves in power and everyone different "in their place." That is their only real concern. Wokeism isn't just a harmless and creative trope to make people alert to the suffering of others ... Its a far left, ideology designed to cause anger, division and destruction. Its cancels and insults anyone who disagrees.... and gives a "your not woke, (or woke enough) therefore I am superior, vibe" Maybe it was a noble idea in the beginning but its certainly not now....... and it is dying out .... probably to be replaced by the next stupid "thing" You seem to want to put those unconvinced of its worthiness, into categories. and that that may be what is happening in the US. ...... but the criticism is certainly coming from moderates in these parts. Consider this, before you reinvent a whole society from strength and resilience..... to everyone being a victim. Is it better now than it was before? ...............What exactly have you achieved Yes....Our government solution is greater integration.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 11, 2023 17:40:09 GMT -5
I would heartily suggest that you not allow right-wing demagogues to influence or corrupt your use and understanding of language. As many on this board have previously noted over the past months, being "woke" simply means to be aware of and alert to the fact that many people are not treated equally, and to be unwilling to accept that as how society should be. The far-right has tried to corrupt that meaning, in terms of weaponizing the idea that it instead means hatred against white society, culture, and people. It doesn't. That is simply another attempt by the far-right to scare people into thinking that those same far-right are the saviors of society. The REAL reason that the far-right concentrate on such things is because they cannot sell the average American on their real agenda, so depend on instilling fear instead. It also would not sell well to say they were against empathy, enlightenment, equality, or compassion. Much easier, and more effective with far too many conservatives, to set up the "woke" straw man and then set it on fire. Let society burn? Why not, if it lets them think they can rebuild it the way they want, with themselves in power and everyone different "in their place." That is their only real concern. Wokeism isn't just a harmless and creative trope to make people alert to the suffering of others ... Its a far left, ideology designed to cause anger, division and destruction. Its cancels and insults anyone who disagrees.... and gives a "your not woke, (or woke enough) therefore I am superior, vibe" Maybe it was a noble idea in the beginning but its certainly not now....... and it is dying out .... probably to be replaced by the next stupid "thing" You seem to want to put those unconvinced of its worthiness, into categories. and that that may be what is happening in the US. ...... but the criticism is certainly coming from moderates in these parts. Consider this, before you reinvent a whole society from strength and resilience..... to everyone being a victim. Is it better now than it was before? ...............What exactly have you achieved Yes....Our government solution is greater integration. yeah, okay.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 11, 2023 17:57:30 GMT -5
Wokeism is silliness invented by the Right so they can rail against it, make stuff up, and spread fear. It does not exist. It is less real than a unicorn.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 11, 2023 21:49:29 GMT -5
only if you assume that the explanations are different based on race. is that what you are assuming? Well lets say 25% is due to not complying with the officer (threatening the officer) then they don't count White or Black it was a yes or no question, scgal. i am just trying to understand your position.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 11, 2023 21:52:43 GMT -5
No, because I was not alive then. You are not my victim and I mean you no harm at all. Historically there has been all sorts of wars and atrocities..... I'm not responsible for all the evils of the World. I call it out, which is what I am doing,.........The above must surely be a fundamental of a good society. i didn't ask you what you do. i asked you what you would call it? care to try again?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 11, 2023 21:55:52 GMT -5
We all have the same rights and freedoms as a principle of Human Rights law. but...... there are a raft of social and economic factors which may make accessing those rights, more difficult for some. Yes and I didn't agree the first time either. there are also attitudes, prejudices unequal treatment under law, and networks of empowered people that maintain things in an unfair way. clearly THE LAW is insufficient to breach these differences and break down these barriers. what is?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 11, 2023 22:34:04 GMT -5
This one can be tricky also. Do Blacks and White who don't comply get shot at the same rate? Or is one more likely than the other to be shot while the other more likely to be handcuffed or not even that? I have been pulled over 2 times in the past 2 years while carrying. Once in NC and once in SC both times I notified to the officer I was carrying a firearm and was licenced. They asked me for my id and permit along with registration and ins card. The NC officer asked me to exit the car put my hands on the hood and with 2 fingers place my gun on the car he took the gun unloaded it and asked me to get back in the car another officer pulled up stayed with me while the other ran my id. I was given a warning for speeding and was thanked for complying. The SC officer just asked me to keep my hands on the wheel waited until backup arrived they watched me while he ran my papers. Again I was thanked for being truthful and was sent on my way without a ticket. I am 100% positive if I didn't comply I would have been shot. And yes I am ok with that. i think you are making this too personal. the guy in the video was not cooperating. do you believe that if he were black he would NOT have been shot? that is the most relevant thing we can debate. it should be noted that he was CLEARLY NOT cooperating.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2023 7:59:01 GMT -5
You can see it in how January 6th was handled and is being spun by Republicans. A riot full of white people was nothing more than a "tourist event". There is the huge outcry over Ashli Babbit that got shot climbing through the window. Climbing through a broken window into the Capitol where our representatives were during a freaking riot where people were chanting about hanging Pence mind you. She's a white female. BLM protests were a bunch of looters, rioters and every single one of them should be shot dead. Kyle Rittenhouse, a white male, is being held up as a right wing hero for going out shooting two people dead during a BLM protest. A bunch of white looters and rioters, many of whom would have likely strung up our VP in the hysteria, are tourists who were peacefully protesting an illegal election. Black people protesting centuries of mistreatment and injustice and the death of several people at the hands of the cops . .. they deserve to die. How dare they riot! But there isn't systemic racism in America AT ALL.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2023 9:23:06 GMT -5
Then there is Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress and being called "An ape in heels" whereas Melania's soft core porn career is considered "art". Explain that one as anything other than bias on a multitude of levels.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 12, 2023 9:30:10 GMT -5
There are none as blind as those who refuse to see
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 12, 2023 9:34:02 GMT -5
Then there is Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress and being called "An ape in heels" whereas Melania's soft core porn career is considered "art". Explain that one as anything other than bias on a multitude of levels. exactly! a recent FB memory was actually about this - anyone remember Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany behind the podium with tank-top style blouses? I commented about the double standard, using Michelle's sleeveless dress as the example. but hey, Kayleigh is a blonde white woman and she looks great! nevermind that she looks highly unprofessional while she's working, and Michelle wasn't even working.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 12, 2023 10:05:30 GMT -5
Then there is Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress and being called "An ape in heels" whereas Melania's soft core porn career is considered "art". Explain that one as anything other than bias on a multitude of levels. exactly! a recent FB memory was actually about this - anyone remember Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany behind the podium with tank-top style blouses? I commented about the double standard, using Michelle's sleeveless dress as the example. but hey, Kayleigh is a blonde white woman and she looks great! nevermind that she looks highly unprofessional while she's working, and Michelle wasn't even working. Your post reminded me of this video. It has been posted here in the past but it's nice to be reminded again of President Obama's "worst" scandals.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Jul 12, 2023 10:09:26 GMT -5
Not the same oh its the gun crap again. OOOh an inanimate object is to blame, oh brother. There is racism, just not as much systemic as there used to be. OMG. So, because it is not "as much as it was before" we should just forget about it now. Conservatives are unbelievable. If it wasn't for that inanimate object(your words), 20 first and second graders in CT would be alive today. But you do not care. NO...not forget about racism just AA is just as racist if not more. Those kids would be alive if the PERSON responsible for their deaths didn't do it.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 12, 2023 10:12:59 GMT -5
OMG. So, because it is not "as much as it was before" we should just forget about it now. Conservatives are unbelievable. If it wasn't for that inanimate object(your words), 20 first and second graders in CT would be alive today. But you do not care. NO...not forget about racism just AA is just as racist if not more. Those kids would be alive if the PERSON responsible for their deaths didn't do it. You know, there is the way things should be, and then there is the way things are. You seem to be confused about which one is which
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Jul 12, 2023 10:18:30 GMT -5
Well lets say 25% is due to not complying with the officer (threatening the officer) then they don't count White or Black it was a yes or no question, scgal . i am just trying to understand your position. you asked me if I agreed with a statistic I would say no if I don't have all the information.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 12, 2023 10:20:24 GMT -5
In the U.S., why do violent mass death and injury events always involve a firearm and not a knife, ax or even a frying pan?
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jul 12, 2023 10:35:39 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 12, 2023 11:45:31 GMT -5
it was a yes or no question, scgal . i am just trying to understand your position. you asked me if I agreed with a statistic I would say no if I don't have all the information. you will never have all of the information. statistics are not designed for that. they are designed to convey information on incidents. what you are asking for requires investigation, since neither party can be expected to tell the truth about it. so, again, i am asking you, DO YOU BELIEVE that BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY DURING ARREST? that has nothing to do with the "statistic" since i have already stated that it does NOT account for it. for the record: i believe they do behave differently. but i am waiting for you to respond before i explain my own perspective.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 12, 2023 11:47:41 GMT -5
OMG. So, because it is not "as much as it was before" we should just forget about it now. Conservatives are unbelievable. If it wasn't for that inanimate object(your words), 20 first and second graders in CT would be alive today. But you do not care. NO...not forget about racism just AA is just as racist if not more. Those kids would be alive if the PERSON responsible for their deaths didn't do it. i don't think AA is "racist" at all. racism is the belief that one race is superior to another and therefor deserves better treatment. AA posits the opposite. you are conflating preferential treatment with racism. and yes, "both sides do that". i am not sure whether AA does it more or not, but that is what it is designed to "counter".
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 12, 2023 12:09:27 GMT -5
I did in college a paper against affirmative action, but it was more specifically against the strict racial quotas that were in vogue at the time. I still believe that quotas were (and are) wrong, under the idea that quotas are inherently discriminatory and if discrimination was wrong before how could it be right to use it again now? That being said, I am all in favor of a more holistic approach to evaluating candidates, and a strict cutoff by virtue of GPA or test score has little to do with how productive a person can be or how valuable can be their contribution. I can easily imagine a host of real world issues where the worst possible group of decision-makers would be a collection of Harvard MBAs. Are their GPAs high? Sure. Are their test scores impressive? Sure. So what? Diversity of thought matters. Diversity of background matters. Diversity of life experience matters.
If I am charged with making decisions, why would I EVER want as my advisors a group of people just like me? Who look like me? Who think like me? I wouldn't. I'm a pretty smart and confident guy, and I can easily take control of my own opinions without backup from anyone else. It comes down to a great quote from Aaron Sorkin's terribly-underrated show, Sports Night. Station manager Isaac Jaffe (Robert Guillaume) is speaking about his theory of leadership:
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2023 12:25:40 GMT -5
DO YOU BELIEVE that BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY DURING ARREST? People individually do behave differently during arrest. Is there a constant that holds true for a meaningful number of the subset of Blacks and a different constant for the subset of Whites? That I am not sure. I do read about Blacks specifically teaching techniques to younger Blacks to help lower tension when they are dealing with police. But when I read what those include they are behaviors I, a white guy, have always done. There is also the fact that arrests are an interactive process. Do arresting officers have a tendency to behave differently when arresting a Black person than arresting a White person.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2023 12:31:34 GMT -5
I did in college a paper against affirmative action, but it was more specifically against the strict racial quotas that were in vogue at the time. I still believe that quotas were (and are) wrong, under the idea that quotas are inherently discriminatory and if discrimination was wrong before how could it be right to use it again now? That being said, I am all in favor of a more holistic approach to evaluating candidates, and a strict cutoff by virtue of GPA or test score has little to do with how productive a person can be or how valuable can be their contribution. I can easily imagine a host of real world issues where the worst possible group of decision-makers would be a collection of Harvard MBAs. Are their GPAs high? Sure. Are their test scores impressive? Sure. So what? Diversity of thought matters. Diversity of background matters. Diversity of life experience matters. If I am charged with making decisions, why would I EVER want as my advisors a group of people just like me? Who look like me? Who think like me? I wouldn't. I'm a pretty smart and confident guy, and I can easily take control of my own opinions without backup from anyone else. It comes down to a great quote from Aaron Sorkin's terribly-underrated show, Sports Night. Station manager Isaac Jaffe (Robert Guillaume) is speaking about his theory of managing: And one's college years are a great time to experience that diversity so that a person is more comfortable with it once out in the real world.
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