Article about not enjoying FIRE

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

apple.news/AAT5lsKTeSVaU5BcJ1rkLTg

Pinching pennies can get tiring after a while. Just ask Mindy and Carl, an early 50s-something couple who joined the FIRE (Financial Independence/Retire Early) movement six years ago with $4.3 million saved. They recently sat down with personal finance guru Ramit Sethi for his podcast, “I Will Teach You To Be Rich,” where they explained that living frugally may be more stress than it’s worth.
”We don’t want to just keep throwing money on the pile and keep being cheap,” Mindy said. “I do look at everything based on how much it costs, and I don’t need to. I shouldn’t.” 
————————

So, they stopped working and still live like they’re poor? I’m not sure I’d like that plan either.

[Bonny]

Pay wall.

[minnesotapaintlady]

They have 4.3 million.  They have issues if 150K/year which is only a 3.5% draw is stressful frugal living.  Even going all the way down to 2% draw which they would never ever run out of money is nearly 90K/year.

Zero sympathy. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jun 25, 2023 10:38:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

They have 4.3 million.  They have issues if 150K/year which is only a 3.5% draw is stressful frugal living.  Even going all the way down to 2% draw which they would never ever run out of money is nearly 90K/year.

Zero sympathy. 

100%.

If this was one of those extreme cases trying to live on 1M/40k a year or less, retiring super early. ok - maybe? But 4M? Supposedly living ordinary lifestyle? no. just no.


Feel like they bragplaining because it is so ridiculous. Like even if they truly felt all that - intellectually they should know better than to say it out loud in public - and see a therapist. Because if all true, this isn't a financial issue.

[haapai]

I hit the paywall too.  It blanked out right as what Chloe quoted ended. 

But what Chloe has quoted is not enough to assume that they are retired/no longer working.  That language in the OP about "throwing money onto a pile" reads to me that they are still adding to the pile in some way. 

OTOH, if they are no longer working, how do you accumulate a $4.3 million pile by your early 50s without a substantial portion of it being in taxable accounts and throwing off taxable income in the form of dividends and gains when they liquidate it to live on?  Health insurance and taxes might be eating up more of their draw than we imagine.  Although, to be fair, this seems like a major miscalculation to me. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

Yeah, it does sound like they haven't yet retired...which makes this even more ridiculous.  They need to read up on Coast FIRE because unless their retirement plans are very extravagant it makes no sense to be living like a pauper when you already have that kind of nest egg saved up.  Of course, their idea of being extremely frugal might be skipping first class flights and only have the cleaning people come twice a month, hard to say with only the first paragraph of the article visible.

[MN-Investor]

Yahoo Finance has re-printed the article outside of a paywall, so if you want to read it, check here - A couple who retired early with $4.3 million says the FIRE lifestyle is wearing thin: ‘We don’t want to just keep throwing money on the pile and keep being cheap’

[minnesotapaintlady]

I haven't watched it myself yet, but the ChooseFI Facebook page posted that article as well and said it was a taken out of context click bait article and to watch the podcast episode to get the full story.

[giramomma]

I dunno. I think it's a thing.

Just because I can start working part time at 56 doesn't mean I'm relaxed about finances.  Because, I'm not. I'm stressed out. I've been stressed out about money since I got married and I had fights with DH over him wanting to spend the extra dollar to buy name brand cereal when we were first married.

It's a hell of a responsibility to be the breadwinner and have 6 mouths to feed, figuring out how to pay at least 5K for brace with a 15K roof bill hanging over my head. Those two things along, are 20% of our gross income for one year. All while everything is getting more and more expensive. Turns out, a decade of furloughs and no raises doesn't really help you keep up.

I absolutely was twitching when we were spending money (that we have) eating out once a day when we were fetching DS.

And, whenever we are flush, I don't really see my habits changing. Like, I have about 10 days worth of clothes. I don't see me running out and buying so many clothes that I fill up a double closet in retirement.

I'm going to twitch when $100 won't even cover a fast food meal with minimal drinks for my family of 6. Or fill a gas tank. I remember when gas was less than a buck a gallon. I'd fill up, pay with a $20 and get change back.

My inlaws are older and likely worth more (ie, they will never run out of money). They are still careful with their spending. In fact, they cut back their snowflake money last year.

Anxiety is a bitch. Things always don't work out. Sometimes, it's hard for folks to relinquish the security that comes with control.

[Deleted]

There's so much going on here and, IMHO, not much of it is actually about $$.  It's about our feelings and anxieties about $$.  I think many of us have those feelings and anxieties for a huge variety of reasons.  That's why some of us don't sleep at night, others stockpile/hoard, and every possible iteration of worry.

No matter how many software programs we run with endless variables, we will still worry.  Is it enough?  Should I do more?  What if?  Again, IMHO, there are no solid answers because no program can account for the variables of health, the broader economy, employment opportunities.  

It's incredibly hard to shift from savings mode to spending mode.  Please, ask me how I know.  Yes, I still shop at Aldi and have a price-point where I don't buy ($0.89 mangoes) but I will drop $14,000 on an Alaskan cruise because we aren't going to live forever and the world is not waiting for us.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Ok.  I watched the video.  Mindy has some issues.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I'm going to work "Mindy has some issues" into conversations as often as possible. 

[teen persuasion]

Haven't watched the video yet, but did read the yahoo link article. Why was I not surprised to see a reference to Financial Samurai's meltdown blog that he has to return to work because they can't afford day care on $200k/yr (why do they need daycare if they are retired )?

In the article:

And in Carl's case, he thought reaching his financial milestone would make him happier, but realized he didn’t feel all that different once he accomplished his goal. “Why do I feel pretty much the exact same?” he told Sethi he wondered after retiring early. “I started doing some research, and I learned that happiness is mostly something that comes from you. It comes from the inside, not an external factor.”

[laterbloomer]

The article has a good point. FIRE is not about never spending money. It's about focusing your spending on things that bring you joy. Or the most joy. Having a roof over my head and food and clothing brings me the most joy. It can take some work to start spending the savings and investments that ensure that for me after working so hard to build it up.

[minnesotapaintlady]

I like in the video when Ramit asked him what they were saving all that money for and Mindy is "well, for the future".  She worked it out to to being like 32 million by the time they were 74 and all she could focus on was that the RMDs were going to be so huge.  Ramit told her if she can't spend a little now with 4 million dollars she'll never be able to handle 32 million.

[jeffreymo]

I think of the FIRE movement as a group of like minded individuals who enjoy sacrifice, saving, math, and most of all keeping score. It’s another version of “keeping up with the Joneses”. I think Mindy is obsessed with “winning” the contest.

I am a scorekeeper too and like to know/understand how I matchup with peers, and I love math and tracking everything on a spreadsheet. I can see how it might be easy to fall in a trap of shooting at a moving target.

I also like to spend money - which I don’t do very often. To satisfy some of the planning/math/excel urges I’m trying to formulate a strategy that normalizes our spending into retirement even when the cost of providing for a household of 5 is gone. I think if I see the same outflow maybe I’ll be less likely to scrutinize every dime. Based on how things are trending we may have to gradually increase spending pre-retirement to smooth things out.

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2023 10:38:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

They have 4.3 million.  They have issues if 150K/year which is only a 3.5% draw is stressful frugal living.  Even going all the way down to 2% draw which they would never ever run out of money is nearly 90K/year.

Zero sympathy. 

I have zero sympathy for them too.    But what the real issue (if they did retire and are living on 150K per year)  is probably that all their friends (and maybe relatives) are living on MORE than 150K per year.     I bet it pinches when they can't keep up with their friends/family when it comes to buying new stuff or vacations or whatever.   And I bet that's why they foresee a lifetime of frugal living (because they will never have has much as their friends/family who didn't FIRE or who are not working towards it.  

If they haven't retired and are still building wealth (the OP quote isn't clear and it's behind a paywall.)  I would think they aren't really clear on what FIre means to their situation.   

No matter which path they are on - they have zero sympathy from me  - they are kind of in the "oh no! we won't be able to keep eating off of solid gold disposable plates everyday!  What will we do!!! We've been lied to!"    

I thought part of the FIre movement was about building a lifestyle that didn't center around shopping and spending money on latest consumer goods.   You still spent money and shopped - but there were other things you would be spending  your time and energy on (like a personal passion or something).    

[minnesotapaintlady]

Jun 26, 2023 14:15:15 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 25, 2023 10:38:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

They have 4.3 million.  They have issues if 150K/year which is only a 3.5% draw is stressful frugal living.  Even going all the way down to 2% draw which they would never ever run out of money is nearly 90K/year.

Zero sympathy. 

I have zero sympathy for them too.    But what the real issue (if they did retire and are living on 150K per year)  is probably that all their friends (and maybe relatives) are living on MORE than 150K per year. I bet it pinches when they can't keep up with their friends/family when it comes to buying new stuff or vacations or whatever.   And I bet that's why they foresee a lifetime of frugal living (because they will never have has much as their friends/family who didn't FIRE or who are not working towards it.  

I don't think so.  Did you watch the video?  I think Ramit was correct in saying they don't really want to change.  They have a pretty deeply rooted belief that being frugal is a virtue.  I have a feeling they are more judgy of those that spend than jealous.

[tallguy]

I did not watch the video, but it certainly sounds more like a personal/mental issue than a financial one.  It is very difficult for a frugal person who was dedicated to saving to change that mindset, even when money is no longer an issue.  After years of considering oneself virtuous for saving, does one think him/herself "less virtuous" if they are no longer doing so?  Additionally, a fear of spending, and thus possibly someday running out, is a real issue for some. 

I should spend more than I do.  I can afford it.  My problem is a bit different, in that I don't have that many things I need to spend money on.  Almost everything I need or want I already have.  I have also never been motivated by having more, and have never gotten emotional satisfaction from spending or buying.  I don't like to replace things that still work just because something else is newer and nicer.  I will never be able to just throw money around or away.  It is just not in my nature.  I CAN spend, but I want to make sure I get value for what I DO spend.  If something comes up, fine.  If it doesn't, that's okay too.  (Yes, things will come up soon, and I am ready for those, but they're not here quite yet.)  The one thing that has been disappointing is travel.  I/we have had several things planned, but either COVID or some other issue forced cancellations.  All I can do is update my plans for when spending becomes either beneficial or necessary, and enjoy everything else in the meantime.  Without fear.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2023 17:00:39 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I did not watch the video, but it certainly sounds more like a personal/mental issue than a financial one.  It is very difficult for a frugal person who was dedicated to saving to change that mindset, even when money is no longer an issue.  After years of considering oneself virtuous for saving, does one think him/herself "less virtuous" if they are no longer doing so?  Additionally, a fear of spending, and thus possibly someday running out, is a real issue for some. 

I should spend more than I do.  I can afford it.  My problem is a bit different, in that I don't have that many things I need to spend money on.  Almost everything I need or want I already have.  I have also never been motivated by having more, and have never gotten emotional satisfaction from spending or buying.  I don't like to replace things that still work just because something else is newer and nicer.  I will never be able to just throw money around or away.  It is just not in my nature.  I CAN spend, but I want to make sure I get value for what I DO spend.  If something comes up, fine.  If it doesn't, that's okay too.  (Yes, things will come up soon, and I am ready for those, but they're not here quite yet.)  The one thing that has been disappointing is travel.  I/we have had several things planned, but either COVID or some other issue forced cancellations.  All I can do is update my plans for when spending becomes either beneficial or necessary, and enjoy everything else in the meantime.  Without fear.

  Thank you, that was truly well said.  

[Bonny]

I watched the video. It's a little long but very, very good. I saw a lot of it in myself.

Yes, I have issues. They are there for a reason.

They are courageous people for doing this publically.

Thank you for sharing!

[Tiny]

Jun 26, 2023 14:45:18 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Jun 26, 2023 14:15:15 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I have zero sympathy for them too.    But what the real issue (if they did retire and are living on 150K per year)  is probably that all their friends (and maybe relatives) are living on MORE than 150K per year. I bet it pinches when they can't keep up with their friends/family when it comes to buying new stuff or vacations or whatever.   And I bet that's why they foresee a lifetime of frugal living (because they will never have has much as their friends/family who didn't FIRE or who are not working towards it.  

I don't think so.  Did you watch the video?  I think Ramit was correct in saying they don't really want to change.  They have a pretty deeply rooted belief that being frugal is a virtue.  I have a feeling they are more judgy of those that spend than jealous.

No I missed the video post... I think I had some kind of lag in updating this morning.    When I replied I didn't see the posts that are now before mine.    

[haapai]

I've been watching the video in spurts.  I agree that the Fortune article was derivative click-bait. 

I was surprised to learn that this couple has two kids who are still in middle or high school.  The cost of finishing their educations has got to be playing with their minds.  They could definitely use a hint about "layers". 

Despite the $4.3 million number being mentioned at the beginning, the rest of the podcast is aggravatingly numbers-free.  I have no idea what kind of baseline costs this family has.  Therefore, I have no idea of how cheap they are being. 

 

[Bonny]

Jun 27, 2023 18:20:38 GMT -5 haapai said:

I've been watching the video in spurts.  I agree that the Fortune article was derivative click-bait. 

I was surprised to learn that this couple has two kids who are still in middle or high school.  The cost of finishing their educations has got to be playing with their minds.  They could definitely use a hint about "layers". 

Despite the $4.3 million number being mentioned at the beginning, the rest of the podcast is aggravatingly numbers-free.  I have no idea what kind of baseline costs this family has.  Therefore, I have no idea of how cheap they are being. 

 

Well the example of taking a flight from Denver to Florida that had two lay-overs so they could save $20 each was telling.

[giramomma]

Jun 25, 2023 20:49:28 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Haven't watched the video yet, but did read the yahoo link article. Why was I not surprised to see a reference to Financial Samurai's meltdown blog that he has to return to work because they can't afford day care on $200k/yr (why do they need daycare if they are retired )?

For the same reasons SAHMs at my kids' school need a full time nanny.

You can't invest in yourself (ie, work out, lunch, practice a language for travel, shop for clothing) with a young child/young children at your side.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 29, 2023 8:16:15 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jun 25, 2023 20:49:28 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Haven't watched the video yet, but did read the yahoo link article. Why was I not surprised to see a reference to Financial Samurai's meltdown blog that he has to return to work because they can't afford day care on $200k/yr (why do they need daycare if they are retired )?

For the same reasons SAHMs at my kids' school need a full time nanny.

You can't invest in yourself (ie, work out, lunch, practice a language for travel, shop for clothing) with a young child/young children at your side.

So THAT is the secret.  I need to be able to afford a nanny.

::scracthes self care/development off the list::

[giramomma]

Jun 29, 2023 8:17:30 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 29, 2023 8:16:15 GMT -5 giramomma said:

For the same reasons SAHMs at my kids' school need a full time nanny.

You can't invest in yourself (ie, work out, lunch, practice a language for travel, shop for clothing) with a young child/young children at your side.

So THAT is the secret.  I need to be able to afford a nanny.

::scracthes self care/development off the list::

Yup.

The amusing thing is these are the folks that are often too busy to volunteer in the school.

We have a parent-led body that helps give input on the school/decisions to be made. You get voted in. It's a 3 year term.

You have to supply a little bio about why you want to serve. Some mom once put that she just didn't have time in the past because she was too busy sailing and learning languages for international travel, and of course her kids were not school aged...

I am still shocked at how tone deaf that person was.

[teen persuasion]

Jun 29, 2023 8:16:15 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jun 25, 2023 20:49:28 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Haven't watched the video yet, but did read the yahoo link article. Why was I not surprised to see a reference to Financial Samurai's meltdown blog that he has to return to work because they can't afford day care on $200k/yr (why do they need daycare if they are retired )?

For the same reasons SAHMs at my kids' school need a full time nanny.

You can't invest in yourself (ie, work out, lunch, practice a language for travel, shop for clothing) with a young child/young children at your side.

Yes! There was a lot of side-eye at Financial Samurai's I-can't-stay-FIREd-on-$200k/yr rant. When the daycare came up,   - he's going back to work to get away from 24/7 family time. Just own it, dude.

[wvugurl26]

Those extra layovers would cost you more than $20 in food, snacks, drinks. Also if I booked a flight with 2 connections we better be going somewhere amazing like Australia.

I have my own issues but spending on travel is not one of them. I think it helps that my maternal grandma is beyond cheap. Her grandmother drank hot water at home because coffee costs money. Supposedly there was free senior coffee at McDonald's in those days. This has been verified by my mom and all her siblings.

We are working on increasing savings but I don't want to refuse to spend money on things we would enjoy.

[Bonny]

Jun 29, 2023 18:25:50 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

Those extra layovers would cost you more than $20 in food, snacks, drinks. Also if I booked a flight with 2 connections we better be going somewhere amazing like Australia.

I have my own issues but spending on travel is not one of them. I think it helps that my maternal grandma is beyond cheap. Her grandmother drank hot water at home because coffee costs money. Supposedly there was free senior coffee at McDonald's in those days. This has been verified by my mom and all her siblings.

We are working on increasing savings but I don't want to refuse to spend money on things we would enjoy.

They probably pack their own snacks and drink tap water.