LSU vs Iowa Drama

[Pink Cashmere]

link

I don’t follow this sport, but my Mom does, and I know at least one poster here does.

Even though I don’t follow the sport, I’ve seen a million FB posts about this recently, way more posts than I’ve seen about the game itself and the athletes on both teams that played. I’m not big on sports, but I *think* that in team sports, even if a team has an exceptionally talented player, the rest of the team matters too when it comes to winning games.

I think it’s unfortunate that this has overshadowed the game itself. From what I’ve read so far, Angel Reese gave Caitlyn Clark the exact same energy Caitlyn Clark put out there herself, but it was perceived very differently when Angel Reese did it, in a negative way, from when Caitlyn Clark did it.

I’ve never played any organized sport, but I’ve played games that didn’t involve sports, like Dominoes and card games, where people talked a lot of shit, and that was just whatever, that nobody took seriously. And if the person talking shit didn’t back it up by winning, they got clowned. When I was teaching Mister’s Mom to play Dominoes, she was talking trash, and didn’t even really know how to play the game yet lol. I imagine that some people that play sports do the same thing, talk trash and other people give them the same energy and talk trash back to them.

So I mostly don’t understand why this is such a big deal, especially so much that it seems to be more important than the game itself, and how well or not the athletes played.

Please explain.

[wvugurl26]

I think it's bs when the LSU girl does it she's tacky with no class and when the Iowa girl did it, no one said boo. That was all okay bc she was white and player of the year.

[Pink Cashmere]

Apr 3, 2023 21:41:50 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

I think it's bs when the LSU girl does it she's tacky with no class and when the Iowa girl did it, no one said boo. That was all okay bc she was white and player of the year.

That’s what I’m seeing on the posts on FB, and it’s kind of crazy to me.

[billisonboard]

Clark, the scoring sensation who was the first with consecutive 40-point games in an NCAA Tournament, made the face-waving gesture to no one in particular during an Elite Eight victory over Louisville. link

...

Immediately after the game, Reese told ESPN that she had been eager to whip out the move, saying "Caitlin Clark is a hell of a player for sure, but I don't take disrespect lightly."

Reese accused Clark of disrespecting members of her team as well as South Carolina players at a previous game. Her LSU teammate Alexis Morris had already criticized the Hawkeyes' defense, saying she found the way they guarded South Carolina "disrespectful" and vowing to "take it personally" going into the final. link

I think there is a difference making the gesture in general and premeditated targeting another player.

[Tennesseer]

I know it's off topic but UConn beat San Diego for the title.

Go Huskies!

[Pink Cashmere]

Apr 3, 2023 22:32:59 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Clark, the scoring sensation who was the first with consecutive 40-point games in an NCAA Tournament, made the face-waving gesture to no one in particular during an Elite Eight victory over Louisville. link

...

Immediately after the game, Reese told ESPN that she had been eager to whip out the move, saying "Caitlin Clark is a hell of a player for sure, but I don't take disrespect lightly."

Reese accused Clark of disrespecting members of her team as well as South Carolina players at a previous game. Her LSU teammate Alexis Morris had already criticized the Hawkeyes' defense, saying she found the way they guarded South Carolina "disrespectful" and vowing to "take it personally" going into the final. link

I think there is a difference making the gesture in general and premeditated targeting another player.

It looks like you meant to provide a link, but it doesn’t work?

I’m not sure that I agree that there is a difference in using the gesture. Because like I said before, if you talk shit, you open the door to getting the same from your opponents. But that’s just my opinion.

[billisonboard]

Apr 3, 2023 22:42:58 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Apr 3, 2023 22:32:59 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Clark, the scoring sensation who was the first with consecutive 40-point games in an NCAA Tournament, made the face-waving gesture to no one in particular during an Elite Eight victory over Louisville. link

...

Immediately after the game, Reese told ESPN that she had been eager to whip out the move, saying "Caitlin Clark is a hell of a player for sure, but I don't take disrespect lightly."

Reese accused Clark of disrespecting members of her team as well as South Carolina players at a previous game. Her LSU teammate Alexis Morris had already criticized the Hawkeyes' defense, saying she found the way they guarded South Carolina "disrespectful" and vowing to "take it personally" going into the final. link

I think there is a difference making the gesture in general and premeditated targeting another player.

It looks like you meant to provide a link, but it doesn’t work?

I’m not sure that I agree that there is a difference in using the gesture. Because like I said before, if you talk shit, you open the door to getting the same from your opponents. But that’s just my opinion.

Not sure what the story is on the links. One more try. First quote Second quote

[Ryan]

I didn't see it live, but the argument that I heard was that when Caitlin Clark did it, it was in the moment of the game...like after a big shot.  When Angel Reese did it, they had already won the game and she purposely tried to get in her face, pointing to her finger, and waving her hand in front of her face.

So essentially what the Iowa player was doing was celebrating post touchdown, the LSU player was rubbing it in after the game was already won.  You typically do not see the latter in sports, even the fiercest competitors show some grace when it's all said and done.

To me, more than anything, it just seemed odd that the LSU player would choose to taunt an opponent when she just won the biggest game of her life.

[billisonboard]

For the past thirty years, I have had in my possession a 7 foot prayer stick. On that stick is tied a piece of paper on which I wrote "You don't have to be right". I have this because at my core, I am a rude arrogant asshole who has to prove to others that I am right and they are wrong. The stick reminds me of my vow to present to the world a different me. I fail at times. A situation or person (hi djAdvocate) pushes my buttons and that core glares through.

This is the lens through which I view Reese's behavior and words. I agree with Ryan that time and place made her action inappropriate. She indicates she is just being her. Okay, she is who she is. But she also demands that we accept that her in a positive light. That, as someone who struggles to be a better self, I can't do.

I started to create a thread on this situation but decided against it because I saw it as a trap for my lesser self. Almost didn't comment on this one for that reason. But I did. It seems to me that we are seeing a slide towards this demand of acceptance of whatever behavior in the spirit of tolerance. For myself, I won't go there. Have whatever consensual sex with whomever(s) you choose. Identify as whatever gender or non-gender you feel is right for you. Use whatever bathroom. Stand up for your right to be accepted. But if you identify as arrogant ass, don't expect my acceptance.

As far as Clark, I hope she is doing a soul check for her role in this as well.

[Tennesseer]

The NCAA women's basketball championship game was full of politics
Gender politics, racial politics, even international politics. The NCAA women's basketball championship was chock-full of storylines — and a joy to watch.

From the moment the ball was first tossed up in Sunday’s NCAA women’s basketball championship game, politics were in the air. On multiple fronts.

In a society in which women are subjugated and relegated to rigidly defined gender roles, women’s sports are inherently political.

The idea that sports are a “man’s game” stems from the misogynistic belief that fierce competitiveness and technical mastery aren’t traits women can possess — whether naturally or through hard work. To be clear, Sunday’s title game literally might not even have happened if not for laws mandating that women have the same opportunity as men to participate in college athletics.

And what a treat: The game itself was a testimony to the value of those laws. We got stellar, meaningful play and all the exciting chippiness that comes with it.

The game pitted Iowa guard Caitlin Clark, the sharp-shooting superstar, and her Hawkeyes against the LSU Tigers. Clark has become a media sensation thanks to her dominant play … and her willingness to trash-talk opponents, both of which I love to watch.

And some people have noted that the gushing praise for Clark, who is white, and her outward displays is different from the way many Black athletes — especially Black women — are portrayed when they act equally demonstratively. This explains why LSU’s Angel Reese, a star in her own right, relished the opportunity to stunt on Clark using the same “you can’t see me” taunt Clark had recently deployed.

Reese has faced criticism for her passionate play before, so logically, a swagless horde of observers began to denounce her after the taunt, seemingly ignorant of the fact that she was using an opponent’s own trash-talking against her. (Looking at you, Keith Olbermann.)

Reese, the newly christened champion who was named the tournament’s most outstanding player, had all the smoke for them after the game:

"All year I was critiqued about who I was. ... I don’t fit the narrative. I don’t fit in a box that y’all want me to be in. I’m too ’hood, I’m too ghetto — y’all told me that all year. But when other people do it, y’all don’t say nothing. So this was for the girls that look like me, that’s going to speak up on what they believe in. It’s unapologetically you. That’s what I did it for tonight. It was bigger than me tonight. It was bigger than me. Twitter is going to go on a rage every time, and I’m happy. I feel like I’ve helped grow women’s basketball this year. I’m super happy and excited, so I’m looking forward to celebrating in the next season.


Rest of article here: The NCAA women's basketball championship game was full of politics

[billisonboard]

Her team had just won a national championship. In that moment, what did she choose to do? She found an opponent and taunted her.

"All year I was critiqued about who I was. ... I don’t fit the narrative. I don’t fit in a box that y’all want me to be in. I’m too ’hood, I’m too ghetto — y’all told me that all year. But when other people do it, y’all don’t say nothing. So this was for the girls that look like me, that’s going to speak up on what they believe in. It’s unapologetically you. That’s what I did it for tonight. It was bigger than me tonight. It was bigger than me. Twitter is going to go on a rage every time, and I’m happy. I feel like I’ve helped grow women’s basketball this year. I’m super happy and excited, so I’m looking forward to celebrating in the next season.


Rest of article here: The NCAA women's basketball championship game was full of politics

Is that what 'hood looks like? Ghetto? If so, how much does that type of behavior play out in the wider world?

[tallguy]

I didn't see any of this, having long since changed the channel.  I also haven't seen any clips or read any stories about it afterward.  Given that, my take is this:  I played, up through college and afterward in local leagues with a lot of ex-college players.  I have never been impressed by players "talking trash", or taunting, or flexing and posing, or celebrating a big play on the court.  The ones who impress me are the ones who make a great play, or play a great game, and act like that is what was supposed to happen.  As the saying (generally attributed to Vince Lombardi) goes, "Act like you've been there before."  The need to taunt or talk trash to an opponent indicates to me both immaturity and an inner belief that you really don't believe you are all that good.  If you were, you would have expected to play well, or win, and would have no need to taunt. 

I understand that some players become better if they play with emotion.  I became a better player if an opponent managed to make me angry on the court, because I would become more aggressive offensively and sometimes "take over" games rather than having everybody involved.  If I made a great play I would go back downcourt and try to do it again.  Taunting or celebrating?  No.  That makes me think less of someone, not more.  And if it is a "planned retaliation" rather than an initial "outburst", yes, I think that makes it worse.  One can be excused more easily than the other.  The "outrage" here is because some people have tried to make it a race issue, where a black player is treated differently than a white player for the same thing.  It's not, really.      

[swamp]

Apr 3, 2023 23:32:45 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I didn't see it live, but the argument that I heard was that when Caitlin Clark did it, it was in the moment of the game...like after a big shot.  When Angel Reese did it, they had already won the game and she purposely tried to get in her face, pointing to her finger, and waving her hand in front of her face.

So essentially what the Iowa player was doing was celebrating post touchdown, the LSU player was rubbing it in after the game was already won.  You typically do not see the latter in sports, even the fiercest competitors show some grace when it's all said and done.

To me, more than anything, it just seemed odd that the LSU player would choose to taunt an opponent when she just won the biggest game of her life.

After she won a race in the 2020 Olympics, Katie Ledecky did something similar to one of her competitors who was trash talking Ledecky prior to the race.    If they were men, nobody would say anything.  I'm not sure why it's a big deal when women do it.  

[Tennesseer]

Caitlin Clark defends Angel Reese: ‘I don’t think she should be criticized’

University of Iowa star guard Caitlin Clark defended fellow college basketball star Louisiana State University’s (LSU) Angel Reese over the criticism she received after taunting Clark during Sunday’s NCAA Division I women’s basketball national championship game.

“I don’t think Angel should be criticized at all, you know, no matter which way it goes, you know, she should never be criticized for what she did,” Clark said during an appearance on ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” Tuesday, when host Jeremy Schaap asked if race was a factor in the backlash to Reese.

“You know, I’m just one that competes and she competed…I think everybody knew there was gonna be a little trash talk in the entire tournament. It’s not just me and Angel,” Clark said, calling herself a “big fan” of Reese.

In the final seconds of LSU’s 102-85 win over Iowa, cameras caught Reese was seen taunting Clark with a “U Can’t See Me,” hand gesture, popularized by WWE legend John Cena, and also pointed at her ring finger, signifying her team’s championship victory.

Clark, who broke numerous tournament records, also was seen taunting several opponents during her team’s tournament run, flashing the “U Can’t See Me” hand gesture toward Louisville guard Hailey Van Lith during their Elite Eight contest and waving off University of South Carolina guard Raven Johnson as she had the ball in hand, appearing to dismiss guarding her during the team’s Final Four matchup.

Rest of article here: Caitlin Clark defends Angel Reese: ‘I don’t think she should be criticized’

[chiver78]

Apr 4, 2023 17:54:07 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Caitlin Clark defends Angel Reese: ‘I don’t think she should be criticized’

University of Iowa star guard Caitlin Clark defended fellow college basketball star Louisiana State University’s (LSU) Angel Reese over the criticism she received after taunting Clark during Sunday’s NCAA Division I women’s basketball national championship game.

“I don’t think Angel should be criticized at all, you know, no matter which way it goes, you know, she should never be criticized for what she did,” Clark said during an appearance on ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” Tuesday, when host Jeremy Schaap asked if race was a factor in the backlash to Reese.

“You know, I’m just one that competes and she competed…I think everybody knew there was gonna be a little trash talk in the entire tournament. It’s not just me and Angel,” Clark said, calling herself a “big fan” of Reese.

In the final seconds of LSU’s 102-85 win over Iowa, cameras caught Reese was seen taunting Clark with a “U Can’t See Me,” hand gesture, popularized by WWE legend John Cena, and also pointed at her ring finger, signifying her team’s championship victory.

Clark, who broke numerous tournament records, also was seen taunting several opponents during her team’s tournament run, flashing the “U Can’t See Me” hand gesture toward Louisville guard Hailey Van Lith during their Elite Eight contest and waving off University of South Carolina guard Raven Johnson as she had the ball in hand, appearing to dismiss guarding her during the team’s Final Four matchup.

Rest of article here: Caitlin Clark defends Angel Reese: ‘I don’t think she should be criticized’

and what's sad is this will no longer be a thing, bc the white girl that started it has said its okay. double standards, for sure.

[chiver78]

Apr 4, 2023 12:36:12 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I didn't see any of this, having long since changed the channel.  I also haven't seen any clips or read any stories about it afterward.  Given that, my take is this:  I played, up through college and afterward in local leagues with a lot of ex-college players.  I have never been impressed by players "talking trash", or taunting, or flexing and posing, or celebrating a big play on the court.  The ones who impress me are the ones who make a great play, or play a great game, and act like that is what was supposed to happen.  As the saying (generally attributed to Vince Lombardi) goes, "Act like you've been there before."  The need to taunt or talk trash to an opponent indicates to me both immaturity and an inner belief that you really don't believe you are all that good.  If you were, you would have expected to play well, or win, and would have no need to taunt. 

I understand that some players become better if they play with emotion.  I became a better player if an opponent managed to make me angry on the court, because I would become more aggressive offensively and sometimes "take over" games rather than having everybody involved.  If I made a great play I would go back downcourt and try to do it again.  Taunting or celebrating?  No.  That makes me think less of someone, not more.  And if it is a "planned retaliation" rather than an initial "outburst", yes, I think that makes it worse.  One can be excused more easily than the other.  The "outrage" here is because some people have tried to make it a race issue, where a black player is treated differently than a white player for the same thing.  It's not, really.      

except that it is, actually. Caitlin Clark has taunted numerous opponents along the way, and then she gets the same in return on her way to a loss in the national championship. but now it's a problem? doesn't pass the stink test, sorry.

[grumpyhermit]

ESPN posted this four days ago 




The outrage, is that black players get disproportionately called out for this behavior, while white players get a pass. 

[billisonboard]

Apr 4, 2023 20:13:31 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

ESPN posted this four days ago 



The outrage, is that black players get disproportionately called out for this behavior, while white players get a pass. 

The video is about her interaction with and encouragement of teammates and her attempts to fire up crowds. It did include one example in which she appears to be responding to negative comments made by an opponent. I certainly hope no player is called out for such behavior.

[billisonboard]

LSU star Angel Reese says that neither she, nor her team, would be visiting the White House after the Tigers defeated the Iowa Hawkeyes 102-85 to win their first basketball national championship.

After LSU’s victory on Sunday, head coach Kim Mulkey said she would go to the White House if the team was invited.

www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/sport/angel-reese-white-house-jill-biden-intl-spt/index.html

Interesting. Wonder who will win this one.

[billisonboard]

Update: But Wednesday, the school’s athletics department said they would “certainly accept an invitation."

www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/sport/angel-reese-white-house-jill-biden-intl-spt/index.html

[Opti]

Apr 5, 2023 17:44:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

LSU star Angel Reese says that neither she, nor her team, would be visiting the White House after the Tigers defeated the Iowa Hawkeyes 102-85 to win their first basketball national championship.

After LSU’s victory on Sunday, head coach Kim Mulkey said she would go to the White House if the team was invited.

www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/sport/angel-reese-white-house-jill-biden-intl-spt/index.html

Interesting. Wonder who will win this one.

I think the coach as the invite for Iowa was withdrawn.

ETA - I get Angel being upset to Jill Biden's suggestion in the heat of the moment, which was not a good idea.

[billisonboard]

Apr 6, 2023 1:08:45 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 5, 2023 17:44:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

LSU star Angel Reese says that neither she, nor her team, would be visiting the White House after the Tigers defeated the Iowa Hawkeyes 102-85 to win their first basketball national championship.

After LSU’s victory on Sunday, head coach Kim Mulkey said she would go to the White House if the team was invited.

www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/sport/angel-reese-white-house-jill-biden-intl-spt/index.html

Interesting. Wonder who will win this one.

I think the coach as the invite for Iowa was withdrawn.

ETA - I get Angel being upset to Jill Biden's suggestion in the heat of the moment, which was not a good idea.

on justified upset.

If Reese visits with the team at this point, she will very much positively change my perception of her.

[Pink Cashmere]

I stayed away from this thread after I started it, because I needed to really sort my thoughts out about it. I get it that some people say the difference is that Reese did it after the game, compared to “in the heat of the moment”, during a game.

Reese spoke about how people had talked bad about her all season, calling her hood and ghetto. I don’t know what actions before the championship game made people say that about her. But calling her hood and ghetto is different from saying she has poor sportsmanship skills, IF that’s the reason those things were said about her. Using the words hood and ghetto in that context, adds another layer beyond commenting on her sportsmanship.

I don’t recall any comments about Clark’s clap backs and taunting, that included insults due to her skin color. But calling Reese hood and ghetto is a reference to her skin color. That is where the racism comes into play.

As far as “in the moment” during vs after winning a game, I would imagine that emotions were running high immediately after the game too. Maybe even moreso for Reese, because her team won despite all the ugly things that had been said about her during the season. She didn’t do it to a random player on the other team, she did it to the player that was known for doing the same to her opponents and people thought it was cool. 

[billisonboard]

I wish we had more detail on who said exactly what in response to exactly what behavior. 

We do have a new opportunity to hear her respond to a challenging situation. My opinion is that she responded above her "pay grade" when she declared “WE NOT COMING. period” in regards to a White House visit. (No problem with her voicing her disapproval of Jill Biden's comments.) Her school administration has announced they would accept an invitation. How will she respond?

[Pink Cashmere]

Apr 6, 2023 14:31:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I wish we had more detail on who said exactly what in response to exactly what behavior. 

We do have a new opportunity to hear her respond to a challenging situation. My opinion is that she responded above her "pay grade" when she declared “WE NOT COMING. period” in regards to a White House visit. (No problem with her voicing her disapproval of Jill Biden's comments.) Her school administration has announced they would accept an invitation. How will she respond?

I do agree that she should not have spoken for her team regarding that.

I know you said you’ll have more respect for her if she goes, but I wouldn’t knock her if she doesn’t. When I try to imagine being in her shoes, I think I probably wouldn’t want to go myself, even though it would probably be best for her as an athlete. But I’m old and ornery, so there’s that. Sometimes you just get tired of playing nice when you are constantly being insulted for one reason or another. And imo, it was an insult to her team to suggest that Iowa come too, and tarnished the whole Champions visiting the White House thing.

[wvugurl26]

Sure she shouldn't speak for her whole team but that was absurd. The winner is invited to the White House.

She's young, she'll continue to learn. People sit and judge her as grown adults with decades of life experience. It's easy for us to say she shouldn't do this or that. All the science backs up our brains not being fully formed until 25.

She was dumped on all year because she didn't fit in the boxes people wanted to put her in. If this is the worst she does as a young person, she'll be just fine.

[billisonboard]

Apr 6, 2023 12:50:58 GMT -7 Pink Cashmere said:



Apr 6, 2023 12:31:41 GMT -7 billisonboard said:

I wish we had more detail on who said exactly what in response to exactly what behavior. 

We do have a new opportunity to hear her respond to a challenging situation. My opinion is that she responded above her "pay grade" when she declared “WE NOT COMING. period” in regards to a White House visit. (No problem with her voicing her disapproval of Jill Biden's comments.) Her school administration has announced they would accept an invitation. How will she respond?

I do agree that she should not have spoken for her team regarding that.

I know you said you’ll have more respect for her if she goes, but I wouldn’t knock her if she doesn’t. When I try to imagine being in her shoes, I think I probably wouldn’t want to go myself, even though it would probably be best for her as an athlete. But I’m old and ornery, so there’s that. Sometimes you just get tired of playing nice when you are constantly being insulted for one reason or another. And imo, it was an insult to her team to suggest that Iowa come too, and tarnished the whole Champions visiting the White House thing.

..............


Reese indicates that she doesn't fit the narrative that "they" are attempting get her to fit, that she is too "hood" too "ghetto". I don't know what that narrative is exactly. I suspect, based on the very small sample of the behaviors I have seen and heard, "they" would like to see a bit less of the 20 year old team athlete who declares what her teammates and university are not going to do. My wife had Dr Phil on recently and they were talking about star male university athletes and a culture of privilege. Are "they" working on that with her?

If she makes a gracious statement explaining why she will not be attending a White House visit, I would honor that also.

[Pink Cashmere]

I didn’t actually watch the Dr. Phil show you referred to, but when I Googled it, it seems like that was more about male athletes being entitled and thinking they are “above the rules”, including laws, because there were several mentions of sexual assault. I think that is a totally different animal that the conversation about these 2 young ladies.

I believe it’s been discussed on the boards before how in the corporate world, if a woman is as assertive as some men are, they are often labeled as bitches and other derogatory terms, where as men that exhibit the exact same behaviors are “good leaders”, or some other benign term. That’s true for women period, regardless of race or ethnicity. Then, beyond that, there are even more biases against women that also happen to be Black. Women need to know their “place”, and that “place” is even more restrictive for Black women.

I think those issues are the root of why this is even being discussed so much and why it’s being framed the way it is. The real conversation is a bit bigger and more complicated than just those 2 ladies. But that’s just my opinion.

FWIW, even though we aren’t exactly on the same page, I appreciate that we can talk about it and share our thoughts and opinions in a respectful way.

[billisonboard]

Apr 6, 2023 17:14:41 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I didn’t actually watch the Dr. Phil show you referred to, but when I Googled it, it seems like that was more about male athletes being entitled and thinking they are “above the rules”, including laws, because there were several mentions of sexual assault. I think that is a totally different animal that the conversation about these 2 young ladies.

I believe it’s been discussed on the boards before how in the corporate world, if a woman is as assertive as some men are, they are often labeled as bitches and other derogatory terms, where as men that exhibit the exact same behaviors are “good leaders”, or some other benign term. That’s true for women period, regardless of race or ethnicity. Then, beyond that, there are even more biases against women that also happen to be Black. Women need to know their “place”, and that “place” is even more restrictive for Black women.

I think those issues are the root of why this is even being discussed so much and why it’s being framed the way it is. The real conversation is a bit bigger and more complicated than just those 2 ladies. But that’s just my opinion.

FWIW, even though we aren’t exactly on the same page, I appreciate that we can talk about it and share our thoughts and opinions in a respectful way.

The degree and specifics are different. But I think as female athletics grow, we will see more issues of privilege.

Very much agree there is the gender dimension involved. Just not sure that sportsmanship is significantly different for genders. I certainly saw more aggressive play within the women's championship game. Fun to watch. Don't want to see that lost.

Agreed, good conversation.

[billisonboard]

Want to add: certainly still processing and seeing if more "data" becomes available. I do feel some discomfort with my level of a factual basis to talk about this. Won't have a problem if I need to end up saying, "Well if I had known that from the start, ..."