thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 23, 2023 11:35:41 GMT -5
I definitely think all bathroom and locker room designs should evolve. Just because the person next to me and I both have vaginas doesn’t mean I want to hear her farts or smell her poop.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 23, 2023 12:00:09 GMT -5
People should google testicular feminization. They have XY chromosomes, but are resistant to the effects of testosterone, show look female. What should we do about them? Well they are biologically male so by conservative logic to the men's restroom they go. Like that could never end badly for someone. I remember Matthew Shephard quite vividly. He was brutally murdered just because he was gay. But we're going to send trans women and other female presenting people into the men's restroom like it is no big deal? Are they? DNA is not the whole answer. DNA only sets things in motion. You need all the machinery to work to get the final product. They are resistant to testosterone-they do not look female or have male genitalia. Which sex are they?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 23, 2023 12:01:50 GMT -5
Well they are biologically male so by conservative logic to the men's restroom they go. Like that could never end badly for someone. I remember Matthew Shephard quite vividly. He was brutally murdered just because he was gay. But we're going to send trans women and other female presenting people into the men's restroom like it is no big deal? Are they? DNA is not the whole answer. DNA only sets things in motion. You need all the machinery to work to get the final product. They are resistant to testosterone-they do not look female or have male genitalia. Which sex are they? I know it's not. But that was the argument presented to me and I was throwing out "nonsense" to muddle the issue when last I debated it. Ummm no it's actual scientific fact that humans can have more than just XX and XY and an entire bell curve of sex characteristics because of expression of said genes.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 23, 2023 13:06:04 GMT -5
Are they? DNA is not the whole answer. DNA only sets things in motion. You need all the machinery to work to get the final product. They are resistant to testosterone-they do not look female or have male genitalia. Which sex are they? I know it's not. But that was the argument presented to me and I was throwing out "nonsense" to muddle the issue when last I debated it. Ummm no it's actual scientific fact that humans can have more than just XX and XY and an entire bell curve of sex characteristics because of expression of said genes. I know you understand this. Just putting this out there so people see this, and can use it when people spout nonsense. Gender is far more complicated than conservatives wish to admit. Children are born with ambiguous genitalia-are they male or female? There are other conditions that can cause hermaphrodism- what gender are they. I understand this is too complicated for conservatives to comprehend. Too bad they are too closed-minded to learn anything.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 23, 2023 14:13:39 GMT -5
Seems the World Athletic have made a decision. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900"World Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category at international events. The governing body's president, Lord Coe, said no transgender athlete who had gone through male puberty would be permitted to compete in female world ranking competitions from 31 March" They want to protect female sport. Also, DSD atheletes (Female athletes with Differences of Sexual Development) are required to have lower testosterone. "DSD athletes will be required to reduce their blood testosterone level to below 2.5 nanomoles per litre, down from five, and must remain under this threshold for two years in order to compete internationally in the female category in any track and field event. Under previous regulations, DSD athletes were only restricted in events ranging from 400m to a mile" Funny thing is that Women, whose category for sport is being discussed.......... seem to be missing from this debate.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 23, 2023 14:29:19 GMT -5
Is the same thing true of a left wing campaign.
previously posted by myself
"Treating anyone who doesn't agree as an aberration.
Silencing other viewpoints.
Self righteousness ... only feeling "safe" when its your own views which are being expressed.
Distain for due process.... If you think someone is guilty then they are.
Guilt by identity... ie Privileged white man, without any right of reply or discussion.
Reduction and targetting of Police... and law and order.
I'm a Liberal and this isn't it...... Like I said you need to be somewhere in the middle."
Sure looks like fascism to me, doesn't that even bother you?
Yes like I said we have had wokeism and don't want it.
The word is being used in a disapproving way by people who are getting tired of it.
That doesn't make Britons right wing Trump supporter types... or anything like it. Most Britons are centre left......... just not far left.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 23, 2023 14:32:18 GMT -5
Of course not.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 23, 2023 14:32:41 GMT -5
Seems the World Athletic have made a decision. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900"World Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category at international events. The governing body's president, Lord Coe, said no transgender athlete who had gone through male puberty would be permitted to compete in female world ranking competitions from 31 March" They want to protect female sport. Also, DSD atheletes (Female athletes with Differences of Sexual Development) are required to have lower testosterone. "DSD athletes will be required to reduce their blood testosterone level to below 2.5 nanomoles per litre, down from five, and must remain under this threshold for two years in order to compete internationally in the female category in any track and field event. Under previous regulations, DSD athletes were only restricted in events ranging from 400m to a mile" Funny thing is that Women, whose category for sport is being discussed.......... seem to be missing from this debate. The entire thing you just wrote is irrelevant. These people exist. How we deal with them says a lot about us. I am not talking about athletics. I am talking about basic human dignity. We have states passing a law requiring the use f bathrooms be restricted to your birth gender. Is a person with testicular feminization(who has XY chromosomes, but otherwise presents as a women) supposed to use the men's bathroom?Yes or no. It has nothing to do with sports. FYI: testosterone levels are a continuous variable. The above is an arbitrary cutoff. A women who is 2.55 cannot compete, but one at 2.45 can? That makes zero scientific sense
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 23, 2023 14:47:28 GMT -5
Do you mean androgen insensitivity?
Many people wouldn't even know that the person is different...... if presenting as female. So why is there a problem?
These conditions you describe are rare.
whereas being female is half the population.. and they must be protected in their safe spaces.
You can't base policy on relatively few people.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 23, 2023 14:59:10 GMT -5
Easy for you to say. They would be breaking the law. If it is so few people, why even pass the law. It works both ways.
That condition is only 1 of many such issues. Ambiguous genitalia happens in 1 in 1000 to 4500 live births. Seems to be an issue affecting quite a few people. Which bathroom do they use? Why do we need a law for this? We have had this issue forever, why do we need a law now?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 23, 2023 15:26:50 GMT -5
I'd be perfectly comfortable sharing a bathroom with gay or trans people.That's what stalls are for. I don't care what's in your underpants. What's she going to do? Come at me with a dildo?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 23, 2023 15:29:42 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 23, 2023 15:30:37 GMT -5
If a man or anyone intends to do me harm the little faceless lady on the door solves nothing. That sign is not some magical forcefield that keeps someone intent on doing me harm out. WTF would someone go through the hassle of becoming transgender to attack a woman when they can very easily do it now with little to no recourse especially in the United Sates? This is just as bad as when people accused gay men of all being peodphiles so they weren't allowed to be teachers or other professions that associated with children. Oh wait we're still doing that too. If this is all about "protecting" women based on the notion that all men want is sex and will go to any lengths to get it including apparently chopping off their penis and wearing a dress why are lesbians exempt since they also are sexually attracted to women? They could just as easily be "undressing me with their eyes" as one poster once put it. Why is that acceptable and we've made peace with that but a transgender woman in the locker room isn't?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 23, 2023 15:38:25 GMT -5
I must also be weird in the fact that a person wearing a dress using my restroom does not automatically conjure the idea that they are doing it to harm/molest me so I must do everything I can to prevent them from coming in. My first thought is they are using my restroom because they do not feel safe using "theirs" and that everyone should have the right to feel safe when they pee.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 23, 2023 15:52:56 GMT -5
I’ve used the men’s restroom at Fresh Market when the women’s bathroom is occupied by someone who is apparently napping.
The men’s and lady’s are identical one stall rooms.
Some restaurants have already switched to only using these one room bathrooms with both men and women on the doors - then no one can offend or attack or scare or humiliate anyone else.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 23, 2023 16:12:51 GMT -5
I am fine with sharing bathrooms and locker rooms with trans women. I think all the laws surrounding their bathroom issues and medical decisions are terrible and I am in their side.
However, I do kinda understand the sports thing. If the team is professional or high profile, I get why having a bunch of people who were men (not boys but men) but now present as women could be unfair competition. That is based on my limited understanding and I may be wrong for a hundred reasons. Low level youth sports - let them play. How we define “low level” or when someone has critical man development- beats the shit out of me. But I get where cis-female athletes might be disadvantaged at some point, and it might matter financially.
That said - I don’t think men are just randomly changing genders to compete and I don’t think this needs to be regulated at a government level - the sports world should work through this. I don’t think this is the best use of legislators time. Can’t they work on feeding hungry children or housing or something? We have way bigger problems that affect way more people in way more serious ways.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 23, 2023 16:19:25 GMT -5
I am fine with sharing bathrooms and locker rooms with trans women. I think all the laws surrounding their bathroom issues and medical decisions are terrible and I am in their side. However, I do kinda understand the sports thing. If the team is professional or high profile, I get why having a bunch of people who were men (not boys but men) but now present as women could be unfair competition. That is based on my limited understanding and I may be wrong for a hundred reasons. Low level youth sports - let them play. How we define “low level” or when someone has critical man development- beats the shit out of me. But I get where cis-female athletes might be disadvantaged at some point, and it might matter financially. That said - I don’t think men are just randomly changing genders to compete and I don’t think this needs to be regulated at a government level - the sports world should work through this. I don’t think this is the best use of legislators time. Can’t they work on feeding hungry children or housing or something? We have way bigger problems that affect way more people in way more serious ways.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 23, 2023 17:30:35 GMT -5
Ok just a final thought which occurred to me.
In my experience women don't just go in rest rooms to pee. They go to get away from unwanted attention from men; to discuss someone they have met; because they are upset; because they are confiding in girlfriends, or going somewhere quiet. Sometime they are so involved in conversation that that several will go in to the same stall!
That's in addition to redoing makeup, and sorting out the monthleys.
Who actually decides on the provisions for safe spaces for Women?
....and female athletes.... irrelevant as it may be.
Did anybody ask them how they feel when they have trained for years for a sport...... only to lose their place to someone who has gone through male puberty. ......because when I was look at the list of people who were on the "working group" to look in to this issue no Women were represented at all.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2023 22:24:38 GMT -5
they certainly could form their own games with their own rules.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 24, 2023 9:38:40 GMT -5
Yes like I said we have had wokeism and don't want it. The word is being used in a disapproving way by people who are getting tired of it. That doesn't make Britons right wing Trump supporter types... or anything like it. Most Britons are centre left......... just not far left. But you aren't listening - YOU, as a Brit, are interpreting "woke" as a pejorative because that's how your political leaders have redefined it, for you. The posters you are communicating with are primarily American, some Canadian. Our political leaders are trying to redefine "woke", too, but with a different result - only the conservatives consistently treat "woke" as pejorative. sourceThis board leans primarily left, so chances are good that nearly all are using the non-pejorative meaning: "to be informed, educated on, and aware of social injustices." So we are trying to discuss something that has a different meaning to each of us, despite nominally speaking the same language. A few words I can think of, used in UK & US English, meaning different things: boot vs trunk (of a car), jumper (sweater in UK, dress/pinafore in US), garden vs yard (garden is specifically for plants, vegetable or flowerbeds, in US - you wouldn't tell your kids to go out to play in the garden).
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 24, 2023 13:31:02 GMT -5
Of course I know I'm on an American site and as an "other" I'm treated with a bit of suspicion ... However, I think its quite interesting. The Wokeness we experienced, (and still experience) ..... was by American instigation. and rejected by the UK working classes. I know that Wokenes has been siezed upon by the Republican party... as an insult to those who simply think they are supporting equality and social injustices. Who wouldn't want that? Sounds perfect, right? but there is a problem here. Wokeness would silence Freedom of Speech, and freedom of intellectualism ... so that the only argument being heard is their own... and that in turn leads to a demand for ideological conformity. How dare I stray from the path.... must be silenced immediately .... obviously a Republican or a Rascist, or have White fragility, or intellectually sub-normality, right? ...Err No, none of those things. Wokeness espouses intolerance..... which is why I said it was divisive. Tolerance is not a concession, it is the foundation of intellectual debate. Wokeness would destroy or rewrite history..... Not just the pulling down of statues but the destruction of a shared heritage, memories, which leads to unease and a wish to live together to develop that heritage. and indeed.....Wokeness would advocate facing a past which is shameful and guilt ridden, in the name of inclusivity. Much of it blatantly untrue ..... The is only one place this leads is societal destruction and perhaps that is their true aim. What you are looking at here is cultural Marxism.... and that's a political system which has oft been tried.... and always failed. So as you merrily skip along thinking its all about social injustice and anti Republicanism, just be aware that all may not be as it seems. How dare I say that?....... I just did. Bloody stupid Brit, right
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 24, 2023 14:16:35 GMT -5
Of course I know I'm on an American site and as an "other" I'm treated with a bit of suspicion ... However, I think its quite interesting. The Wokeness we experienced, (and still experience) ..... was by American instigation. and rejected by the UK working classes. I know that Wokenes has been siezed upon by the Republican party... as an insult to those who simply think they are supporting equality and social injustices. Who wouldn't want that? Sounds perfect, right? but there is a problem here. Wokeness would silence Freedom of Speech, and freedom of intellectualism ... so that the only argument being heard is their own... and that in turn leads to a demand for ideological conformity. How dare I stray from the path.... must be silenced immediately .... obviously a Republican or a Rascist, or have White fragility, or intellectually sub-normality, right? ...Err No, none of those things. Wokeness espouses intolerance..... which is why I said it was divisive. Tolerance is not a concession, it is the foundation of intellectual debate. Wokeness would destroy or rewrite history..... Not just the pulling down of statues but the destruction of a shared heritage, memories, which leads to unease and a wish to live together to develop that heritage. and indeed.....Wokeness would advocate facing a past which is shameful and guilt ridden, in the name of inclusivity. Much of it blatantly untrue ..... The is only one place this leads is societal destruction and perhaps that is their true aim. What you are looking at here is cultural Marxism.... and that's a political system which has oft been tried.... and always failed. So as you merrily skip along thinking its all about social injustice and anti Republicanism, just be aware that all may not be as it seems. How dare I say that?....... I just did. Bloody stupid Brit, right Please stop trying to say that we are attacking YOU as an outsider (or whatever). I, at least, am trying to point out that we seem to be talking past each other because we are using the same word, but each defining its meaning differently - essentially oppositely. Have you seen the debates between people who interpret "literally" as "factual/truthful" vs those who now use it to mean "figuratively". Of course that is going to create frustration and confusion! How can we clear this miscommunication issue? We need to pick an agreed upon common meaning, at least for this conversation/context. Which makes sense - the meaning used by most of the people involved in the conversation, or the meaning used by one person? Every time you have used "Wokeness" here, I want to replace it with "Republican Anti-wokeness", for my experience in the US. The Republicans are trying to silence those they disagree with, trying to remove topics they disagree with from education (forcing ideological conformity - Don't Say Gay laws in Florida). Republicans are intolerant of non-whites, immigrants, LGBTQ+, etc. Republicans in Florida are rewriting school text books to remove references to race, even in cases where race is the point of the lesson. (How do you tell the story of Rosa Parks without mentioning race?) What is this blatantly untrue shameful and guilt ridden past you want to avoid facing? I think we should face our shameful past treatment of slaves and Native Americans, rather than hiding it or insisting what was done to them was good (as Republicans wish).
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 24, 2023 14:35:00 GMT -5
Of course I know I'm on an American site and as an "other" I'm treated with a bit of suspicion ... However, I think its quite interesting. The Wokeness we experienced, (and still experience) ..... was by American instigation. and rejected by the UK working classes. I know that Wokenes has been siezed upon by the Republican party... as an insult to those who simply think they are supporting equality and social injustices. Who wouldn't want that? Sounds perfect, right? but there is a problem here. Wokeness would silence Freedom of Speech, and freedom of intellectualism ... so that the only argument being heard is their own... and that in turn leads to a demand for ideological conformity. How dare I stray from the path.... must be silenced immediately .... obviously a Republican or a Rascist, or have White fragility, or intellectually sub-normality, right? ...Err No, none of those things. Wokeness espouses intolerance..... which is why I said it was divisive. Tolerance is not a concession, it is the foundation of intellectual debate. Wokeness would destroy or rewrite history..... Not just the pulling down of statues but the destruction of a shared heritage, memories, which leads to unease and a wish to live together to develop that heritage. and indeed.....Wokeness would advocate facing a past which is shameful and guilt ridden, in the name of inclusivity. Much of it blatantly untrue ..... The is only one place this leads is societal destruction and perhaps that is their true aim. What you are looking at here is cultural Marxism.... and that's a political system which has oft been tried.... and always failed. So as you merrily skip along thinking its all about social injustice and anti Republicanism, just be aware that all may not be as it seems. How dare I say that?....... I just did. Bloody stupid Brit, right Far be it from me to disagree. It wouldn't be "neighborly."
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2023 14:43:14 GMT -5
Of course I know I'm on an American site and as an "other" I'm treated with a bit of suspicion ... However, I think its quite interesting. The Wokeness we experienced, (and still experience) ..... was by American instigation. and rejected by the UK working classes. I know that Wokenes has been siezed upon by the Republican party... as an insult to those who simply think they are supporting equality and social injustices. Who wouldn't want that? Sounds perfect, right? but there is a problem here. Wokeness would silence Freedom of Speech, and freedom of intellectualism ... so that the only argument being heard is their own... and that in turn leads to a demand for ideological conformity. there is a difference between demanding awareness and conformity. i get that the privileged white ruling class in the UK and the US can't tell the difference, as even a small change in the toilet paper texture will utter forth long, painful streams of wailing. but for everyone else, we all look pretty silly. i could elaborate further, but the white ruling class won't get it, and everyone else knows (WOKE) exactly what i am talking about. but i will add this: what you are calling freedom of speech, everyone else calls white cultural hegemony. you can scream and holler about that description all you like, but it is a fact, and will remain a fact despite your protestations.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2023 14:45:01 GMT -5
this thread is both irritating and painful for me. i am embarrassed that we seem to be embracing the pre-civil-rights era rhetoric again, as if we had not already fought, and lost, that battle.
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Mar 24, 2023 16:56:56 GMT -5
this thread is both irritating and painful for me. i am embarrassed that we seem to be embracing the pre-civil-rights era rhetoric again, as if we had not already fought, and lost, that battle. Fwiw you are not alone.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 24, 2023 22:04:35 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2023 22:13:31 GMT -5
Wokeness would destroy or rewrite history..... Not just the pulling down of statues but the destruction of a shared heritage, memories, which leads to unease and a wish to live together to develop that heritage. When a statue is torn down, history is not destroyed or rewritten. It is simply continuing to be written.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 24, 2023 22:33:29 GMT -5
Wokeness would destroy or rewrite history..... Not just the pulling down of statues but the destruction of a shared heritage, memories, which leads to unease and a wish to live together to develop that heritage. When a statue is torn down, history is not destroyed or rewritten. It is simply continuing to be written.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 25, 2023 8:01:10 GMT -5
There is no wokeness movement, but there is definitely an anti-wokeness movement that has begun to punish and silence anyone who espouses beliefs the pro anti-wokeness movement believe need to be crushed.
The anti-wokeness movement is divisive setting up and us them view by definition. It is intolerant as well, look at what you wrote about a shared heritage. Even though you say you want discussion and intellectual honesty you do not want to acknowledge that for a sizeable group of Britons and an even larger group of those colonized by Briton they never had the shared heritage you love and believe in. You want to ignore the history that was already there from the colonization and unequal treatment of blacks, trans etc. in your society from the past into the present day.
I did not know about lots of negative history in the 50s from Britain or the US until this last year or more. Its not rewritten history as much as it is part of the history of the past that is finally accessible to people now who weren't involved in it.
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