scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 19, 2022 8:04:53 GMT -5
No. Donald Trump is/was a uniquely horrible person and president. I have him as solidly the worst in American history, by a large margin. Professional historians who rank presidents only have him in the bottom four of all time, but his story is not fully written yet. I am convinced that they will drop him further as the years go by. While others have been bad people and bad presidents, including some who bungled us into the Civil War and others who advanced the cause of slavery, Donald Trump is the only one who ever actively tried to overthrow democracy in this country. Donald Trump is the only one who refused a peaceful transfer of power, which is one thing we have always taken a legitimate measure of pride in and been respected for around the world. He has had many other bigoted, nasty, undemocratic, un-American, and un-Christian words, actions, and policies to demonstrate his unworthiness for the office, but those two things earlier referenced are sufficient in themselves to call him the worst president we have ever had. Those things are a direct attack on what America is and what it stands for. In addition, he is the most corrupt person we have ever had in office, and may in fact be the singularly most dishonest and corrupt person in the country today. For anybody to fail to see even those most obvious things is unbelievable. There is NOBODY who has EVER been worse than Trump. Biden is average, while Obama is generally ranked close to if not inside the top 10. Conservatives' hatred of Obama is particularly silly, considering he actually governed as a moderate conservative. Their hatred is an indictment of how far they themselves have moved away from truth and reason. It is not an indictment of him. So yes, anybody whose opinion is so twisted that they can have Trump over anybody, much less someone generally ranked among our better presidents has demonstrated him/herself to be unworthy of debate. I will stand behind that statement every day of the week. Now, I certainly have ridiculed people in the past, when they deserved it. I'm actually pretty good at it. This wasn't that. A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule
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tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on Dec 19, 2022 8:24:11 GMT -5
even if i agreed with you (and i don't), this is clearly NOT the case for a great number of things. for example, you cannot drive without no-fault insurance in the US. if you are conscripted, you can be arrested if you fail to show up. taxes, taxes, taxes. i think of those three, the car insurance one is the most relevant. so, yeah, we all have to do things we don't want to do, under force of law. the ACA is not really measurably different than MANY of those things. yet no one is taxing you if you do not want to drive. When I lived in NY I knew a lot of folks who didn't have a licence. My sister doesn't never cared to Wait what? FL governor is doling out taxpayer money to prop up the housing insurance industry? Governor Ron DeSantis convened the state’s Republican-controlled legislature last week for a special session devoted to stabilizing the insurance market. In a matter of days, lawmakers passed a package of bills aimed at doing so. The package includes bills that will cut down on litigation and fraudulent claims that raise costs for insurers, but it also provides insurance companies with a $1 billion public subsidy to help them stay afloat next year. That’s on top of another $2 billion the legislature rolled out earlier this year. One might think that this handout would be opposed by a legislature where Republicans enjoy supermajorities in both chambers — and by a governor who has styled himself a future leader of the Republican Party — but the state’s lawmakers don’t have many other options. DeSantis may trumpet Florida as a free-market success story, but the insurance market has all but abandoned it. The problem is that taxpayers will end up footing the bill for all this, even if they don’t own homes that are at significant risk — or don’t own homes at all. www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/why-republicans-are-coughing-up-billions-of-dollars-to-save-florida-s-insurance-market/ar-AA15rH33?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=be0149f8a95f42458eaa742542ba5cd5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2022 8:54:46 GMT -5
No. Donald Trump is/was a uniquely horrible person and president. I have him as solidly the worst in American history, by a large margin. Professional historians who rank presidents only have him in the bottom four of all time, but his story is not fully written yet. I am convinced that they will drop him further as the years go by. While others have been bad people and bad presidents, including some who bungled us into the Civil War and others who advanced the cause of slavery, Donald Trump is the only one who ever actively tried to overthrow democracy in this country. Donald Trump is the only one who refused a peaceful transfer of power, which is one thing we have always taken a legitimate measure of pride in and been respected for around the world. He has had many other bigoted, nasty, undemocratic, un-American, and un-Christian words, actions, and policies to demonstrate his unworthiness for the office, but those two things earlier referenced are sufficient in themselves to call him the worst president we have ever had. Those things are a direct attack on what America is and what it stands for. In addition, he is the most corrupt person we have ever had in office, and may in fact be the singularly most dishonest and corrupt person in the country today. For anybody to fail to see even those most obvious things is unbelievable. There is NOBODY who has EVER been worse than Trump. Biden is average, while Obama is generally ranked close to if not inside the top 10. Conservatives' hatred of Obama is particularly silly, considering he actually governed as a moderate conservative. Their hatred is an indictment of how far they themselves have moved away from truth and reason. It is not an indictment of him. So yes, anybody whose opinion is so twisted that they can have Trump over anybody, much less someone generally ranked among our better presidents has demonstrated him/herself to be unworthy of debate. I will stand behind that statement every day of the week. Now, I certainly have ridiculed people in the past, when they deserved it. I'm actually pretty good at it. This wasn't that. A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule all personnel evaluations are subjective. however, that does not make them irrelevant or arbitrary. i might subjectively determine that one of my employees is insubordinate. if i can document and defend that insubordination. then it is grounds for dismissal. that is what we have here, i believe. we have a PATTERN of irresponsible behavior and mismanagement on the part of Trump that is certainly grounds for dismissal, if not criminal. the latter will be determined by the courts, shortly. but clearly, Trump accomplished very little. and that is by design. he has only two major achievements, one of which he is basically disowning, because his fan club hates him for it (vaccine development).
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 19, 2022 11:16:26 GMT -5
No. Donald Trump is/was a uniquely horrible person and president. I have him as solidly the worst in American history, by a large margin. Professional historians who rank presidents only have him in the bottom four of all time, but his story is not fully written yet. I am convinced that they will drop him further as the years go by. While others have been bad people and bad presidents, including some who bungled us into the Civil War and others who advanced the cause of slavery, Donald Trump is the only one who ever actively tried to overthrow democracy in this country. Donald Trump is the only one who refused a peaceful transfer of power, which is one thing we have always taken a legitimate measure of pride in and been respected for around the world. He has had many other bigoted, nasty, undemocratic, un-American, and un-Christian words, actions, and policies to demonstrate his unworthiness for the office, but those two things earlier referenced are sufficient in themselves to call him the worst president we have ever had. Those things are a direct attack on what America is and what it stands for. In addition, he is the most corrupt person we have ever had in office, and may in fact be the singularly most dishonest and corrupt person in the country today. For anybody to fail to see even those most obvious things is unbelievable. There is NOBODY who has EVER been worse than Trump. Biden is average, while Obama is generally ranked close to if not inside the top 10. Conservatives' hatred of Obama is particularly silly, considering he actually governed as a moderate conservative. Their hatred is an indictment of how far they themselves have moved away from truth and reason. It is not an indictment of him. So yes, anybody whose opinion is so twisted that they can have Trump over anybody, much less someone generally ranked among our better presidents has demonstrated him/herself to be unworthy of debate. I will stand behind that statement every day of the week. Now, I certainly have ridiculed people in the past, when they deserved it. I'm actually pretty good at it. This wasn't that. A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule No, your ignorant/silly/stupid responses are why I feel justified to ridicule. I might be less-inclined if you could at least write a sentence in a grammatically-correct way, but fortunately I don't have to be tested by that idea.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 19, 2022 11:52:15 GMT -5
A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule No, your ignorant/silly/stupid responses are why I feel justified to ridicule. I might be less-inclined if you could at least write a sentence in a grammatically-correct way, but fortunately I don't have to be tested by that idea. Then here comes the attacks. If someone doesn't fall into your norm then they are ignorant, silly, and stupid. Then to top it off with attacking the grammar (I will admit I don't put a lot of emphasis on). It would say a whole lot about you than it would me. You and Trump are very much alike, as long as you feel justified you will ridicule someone.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 19, 2022 11:53:23 GMT -5
A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule No, your ignorant/silly/stupid responses are why I feel justified to ridicule. I might be less-inclined if you could at least write a sentence in a grammatically-correct way, but fortunately I don't have to be tested by that idea. Didn't you just say that wasn't ridicule
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 19, 2022 12:08:10 GMT -5
No, your ignorant/silly/stupid responses are why I feel justified to ridicule. I might be less-inclined if you could at least write a sentence in a grammatically-correct way, but fortunately I don't have to be tested by that idea. Didn't you just say that wasn't ridicule No, that was. As I said, I have done so in the past when people deserved it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 19, 2022 17:22:19 GMT -5
No. Donald Trump is/was a uniquely horrible person and president. I have him as solidly the worst in American history, by a large margin. Professional historians who rank presidents only have him in the bottom four of all time, but his story is not fully written yet. I am convinced that they will drop him further as the years go by. While others have been bad people and bad presidents, including some who bungled us into the Civil War and others who advanced the cause of slavery, Donald Trump is the only one who ever actively tried to overthrow democracy in this country. Donald Trump is the only one who refused a peaceful transfer of power, which is one thing we have always taken a legitimate measure of pride in and been respected for around the world. He has had many other bigoted, nasty, undemocratic, un-American, and un-Christian words, actions, and policies to demonstrate his unworthiness for the office, but those two things earlier referenced are sufficient in themselves to call him the worst president we have ever had. Those things are a direct attack on what America is and what it stands for. In addition, he is the most corrupt person we have ever had in office, and may in fact be the singularly most dishonest and corrupt person in the country today. For anybody to fail to see even those most obvious things is unbelievable. There is NOBODY who has EVER been worse than Trump. Biden is average, while Obama is generally ranked close to if not inside the top 10. Conservatives' hatred of Obama is particularly silly, considering he actually governed as a moderate conservative. Their hatred is an indictment of how far they themselves have moved away from truth and reason. It is not an indictment of him. So yes, anybody whose opinion is so twisted that they can have Trump over anybody, much less someone generally ranked among our better presidents has demonstrated him/herself to be unworthy of debate. I will stand behind that statement every day of the week. Now, I certainly have ridiculed people in the past, when they deserved it. I'm actually pretty good at it. This wasn't that. A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule No, dear...those are facts. From being a horrible person to actively trying to overthrow the government, to refusing a peaceful transfer of power, to being corrupt, nasty, bigoted, un-Christian and un-American......all facts. Tall guy left out childish and petty...also facts.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Dec 19, 2022 17:39:44 GMT -5
A whole lot opinions and feelings. They are just reasons why you justify to ridicule No, dear...those are facts. From being a horrible person to actively trying to overthrow the government, to refusing a peaceful transfer of power, to being corrupt, nasty, bigoted, un-Christian and un-American......all facts. Tall guy left out childish and petty...also facts.Few other things too, but didn't want to be seen as piling on.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 7:03:46 GMT -5
i think the phrase "just your opinion" is overused.
if my opinion is shared by, say, 1 billion people- it is just "just my opinion".
if i KNOW that my view is a minority view, such as that the US is not exceptional in any sense of the term, then i SAY SO.
not EVERYTHING is "just an opinion". some things are so widely believed as to be considered the Truth.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 7:15:45 GMT -5
i think the phrase "just your opinion" is overused. if my opinion is shared by, say, 1 billion people- it is just "just my opinion". if i KNOW that my view is a minority view, such as that the US is not exceptional in any sense of the term, then i SAY SO. not EVERYTHING is "just an opinion". some things are so widely believed as to be considered the Truth. so if a billion people shared your opinion and a billion shared a different opinion are they just sharing opinions? This has the possibility of becoming a decent discussion
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 7:26:53 GMT -5
i think the phrase "just your opinion" is overused. if my opinion is shared by, say, 1 billion people- it is just "just my opinion". if i KNOW that my view is a minority view, such as that the US is not exceptional in any sense of the term, then i SAY SO. not EVERYTHING is "just an opinion". some things are so widely believed as to be considered the Truth. so if a billion people shared your opinion and a billion shared a different opinion are they just sharing opinions? This has the possibility of becoming a decent discussion this is what debate is for. even an outlying opinion may be valid. but to simply not challenge the opinion, and trivialize and dismiss it out of hand because it does not comport with one's own, is antithetical to the entire purpose of a discussion board.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 7:28:01 GMT -5
for the record, i can't ever recall using that phrase. but then, i am absolutely obsessed with how opinions are formed. it is why i post here.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 8:14:36 GMT -5
so if a billion people shared your opinion and a billion shared a different opinion are they just sharing opinions? This has the possibility of becoming a decent discussion this is what debate is for. even an outlying opinion may be valid. but to simply not challenge the opinion, and trivialize and dismiss it out of hand because it does not comport with one's own, is antithetical to the entire purpose of a discussion board. Isn't that what you did? I'm saying if a billion people have the same opinion as you then that is just a billion of the same opinion not fact or truth
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 9:14:20 GMT -5
this is what debate is for. even an outlying opinion may be valid. but to simply not challenge the opinion, and trivialize and dismiss it out of hand because it does not comport with one's own, is antithetical to the entire purpose of a discussion board. Isn't that what you did? I'm saying if a billion people have the same opinion as you then that is just a billion of the same opinion not fact or truth i am saying kind of the opposite. the broader the consensus, the more likely something is true. but i am also saying that for truth (or opinion) to be challenged, the opposing position can't even be considered unless facts are brought to bear to justify that. simply saying that something is "just opinion" or "just a theory" is insufficient. that challenge trivializes both sides of the argument, but pretends to lend authority to the offending position that it doesn't have.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 13:23:51 GMT -5
Isn't that what you did? I'm saying if a billion people have the same opinion as you then that is just a billion of the same opinion not fact or truth i am saying kind of the opposite. the broader the consensus, the more likely something is true. but i am also saying that for truth (or opinion) to be challenged, the opposing position can't even be considered unless facts are brought to bear to justify that. simply saying that something is "just opinion" or "just a theory" is insufficient. that challenge trivializes both sides of the argument, but pretends to lend authority to the offending position that it doesn't have. I agree, however what I also see is that what people call facts are actually their interpretation, or shall we say opinion. I see alot of it on this board if 10 million people say Trump mocked a reporter and 10 million people say he didn't which is fact and which is opinion?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2022 13:41:58 GMT -5
i am saying kind of the opposite. the broader the consensus, the more likely something is true. but i am also saying that for truth (or opinion) to be challenged, the opposing position can't even be considered unless facts are brought to bear to justify that. simply saying that something is "just opinion" or "just a theory" is insufficient. that challenge trivializes both sides of the argument, but pretends to lend authority to the offending position that it doesn't have. I agree, however what I also see is that what people call facts are actually their interpretation, or shall we say opinion. I see alot of it on this board if 10 million people say Trump mocked a reporter and 10 million people say he didn't which is fact and which is opinion? In that situation, there is a call for evidence to support. You indicated Trump’s behavior was like his usual. I asked you to post one example that shows similar movement in an unrelated moment. I could post thousands that do not show similar movement. Who has the weight of evidence to support their claim? That should be how such things are settled and not by a count of claimants.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 13:57:07 GMT -5
i am saying kind of the opposite. the broader the consensus, the more likely something is true. but i am also saying that for truth (or opinion) to be challenged, the opposing position can't even be considered unless facts are brought to bear to justify that. simply saying that something is "just opinion" or "just a theory" is insufficient. that challenge trivializes both sides of the argument, but pretends to lend authority to the offending position that it doesn't have. I agree, however what I also see is that what people call facts are actually their interpretation, or shall we say opinion. I see alot of it on this board if 10 million people say Trump mocked a reporter and 10 million people say he didn't which is fact and which is opinion? well, what do you think he was doing when he waved his arms around like that? he appeared to be mimicking the reporter. that was my interpretation. what was yours? he did similar things with Rubio and the glass of water. he mocks other people too. it is not like this is NOT a pattern for him.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 20, 2022 13:58:58 GMT -5
NOTE: if you think it is debatable, start a thread on it. that is what this board is FOR!
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 14:04:35 GMT -5
I agree, however what I also see is that what people call facts are actually their interpretation, or shall we say opinion. I see alot of it on this board if 10 million people say Trump mocked a reporter and 10 million people say he didn't which is fact and which is opinion? In that situation, there is a call for evidence to support. You indicated Trump’s behavior was like his usual. I asked you to post one example that shows similar movement in an unrelated moment. I could post thousands that do not show similar movement. Who has the weight of evidence to support their claim? That should be how such things are settled and not by a count of claimants. What I'm saying is the "evidence" itself is debatable and in such is not fact but merely opinion
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 20, 2022 14:07:51 GMT -5
No, your ignorant/silly/stupid responses are why I feel justified to ridicule. I might be less-inclined if you could at least write a sentence in a grammatically-correct way, but fortunately I don't have to be tested by that idea. Then here comes the attacks. If someone doesn't fall into your norm then they are ignorant, silly, and stupid. Then to top it off with attacking the grammar (I will admit I don't put a lot of emphasis on). It would say a whole lot about you than it would me. You and Trump are very much alike, as long as you feel justified you will ridicule someone. Isn't that exactly what you do with LGBTQ people? They don't fit your norm and you are quick to attack them. Says a lot about you.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Dec 20, 2022 14:14:00 GMT -5
In that situation, there is a call for evidence to support. You indicated Trump’s behavior was like his usual. I asked you to post one example that shows similar movement in an unrelated moment. I could post thousands that do not show similar movement. Who has the weight of evidence to support their claim? That should be how such things are settled and not by a count of claimants. What I'm saying is the "evidence" itself is debatable and in such is not fact but merely opinion Only if you look at it in isolation. But since he belittles, insults, makes up obnoxious nicknames, and name calls on a regular basis, he does not deserve the benefit of doubt. The preponderance of the evidence shows he did it in a purposeful and insulting manner
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2022 14:14:29 GMT -5
In that situation, there is a call for evidence to support. You indicated Trump’s behavior was like his usual. I asked you to post one example that shows similar movement in an unrelated moment. I could post thousands that do not show similar movement. Who has the weight of evidence to support their claim? That should be how such things are settled and not by a count of claimants. What I'm saying is the "evidence" itself is debatable and in such is not fact but merely opinion Yeah, blah, blah, blah. If it debating, debate it. Show us a clip that supports your position. One.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 14:16:35 GMT -5
What I'm saying is the "evidence" itself is debatable and in such is not fact but merely opinion Only if you look at it in isolation. But since he belittles, insults, makes up obnoxious nicknames, and name calls on a regular basis, he does not deserve the benefit of doubt. The preponderance of the evidence shows he did it in a purposeful and insulting manner I agree with you on all that (imagine that I can agree with you) but the bolded is just opinion
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Dec 20, 2022 14:21:16 GMT -5
What I'm saying is the "evidence" itself is debatable and in such is not fact but merely opinion Yeah, blah, blah, blah. If it debating, debate it. Show us a clip that supports your position. One. A Comprehensive Guide to Trump's Hand Gestures - YouTubewww.youtube.com › watch
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Dec 20, 2022 14:22:51 GMT -5
Yeah, blah, blah, blah. If it debating, debate it. Show us a clip that supports your position. One. A Comprehensive Guide to Trump's Hand Gestures - YouTubewww.youtube.com › watch Ignored the rest I see. He is condescending, disrespectful, and childishly calling people names. He does not get the benefit of the doubt, especially from son Trump fan who is trying to make him look better.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2022 14:23:36 GMT -5
Yeah, blah, blah, blah. If it debating, debate it. Show us a clip that supports your position. One. A Comprehensive Guide to Trump's Hand Gestures - YouTubewww.youtube.com › watch Do you have a functioning link you are attempting to provide?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Dec 20, 2022 14:24:33 GMT -5
Only if you look at it in isolation. But since he belittles, insults, makes up obnoxious nicknames, and name calls on a regular basis, he does not deserve the benefit of doubt. The preponderance of the evidence shows he did it in a purposeful and insulting manner I agree with you on all that (imagine that I can agree with you) but the bolded is just opinion Show me one time you gave as "liberal" the benefit of the doubt. This behavior is in character for him, yet you continue to defend him
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2022 14:40:05 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2022 14:45:32 GMT -5
Only if you look at it in isolation. But since he belittles, insults, makes up obnoxious nicknames, and name calls on a regular basis, he does not deserve the benefit of doubt. The preponderance of the evidence shows he did it in a purposeful and insulting manner I agree with you on all that (imagine that I can agree with you) but the bolded is just opinion djAdvocate , For some reason I am thinking about our discussion on your wish for "everyone to see ..." and my calling that a very high bar.
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