Further into Theocracy

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

The ruling the Supreme Court handed down yesterday was just as disturbing.  This one is somewhat local to me.

Coach prays on the 50 yard line after football games.  He was asked not to, but not being able to pray was breaking his rights of freedom of expression.  He was fired.  Parents have claimed football players were coerced to pray in order to play.  

www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/politics/football-coach-prayer-high-school-supreme-court-kennedy/index.html

SC has claimed this is his right.  It makes me want to pull out my Prayer rug and face Mecca on the 50 yard line.  Wonder how well that would go over?  I’m guessing many would be screaming bloody murder about that.  

[bean29]

Jun 28, 2022 9:31:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

The ruling the Supreme Court handed down yesterday was just as disturbing.  This one is somewhat local to me.

Coach prays on the 50 yard line after football games.  He was asked not to, but not being able to pray was breaking his rights of freedom of expression.  He was fired.  Parents have claimed football players were coerced to pray in order to play.  

www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/politics/football-coach-prayer-high-school-supreme-court-kennedy/index.html

SC has claimed this is his right.  It makes me want to pull out my Prayer rug and face Mecca on the 50 yard line.  Wonder how well that would go over?  I’m guessing many would be screaming bloody murder about that.  

I also find this disturbing.  I was talking to DH about it this am.  I am visualizing different religions asking for equal "prayer time".  I honestly don't get it.  There is no way you can see a coach praying before or after a game and not understand that athletes that refuse to participate could be "retaliated" against by not getting playing time.  I am Catholic.  Used to participate in a prayer group, and find this disturbing.  We no longer have separation on Church and State.

Eta.  I am also pro-choice.  I have been taking my Mom to Church every week to help limit her driving and spend some more time with Mom.  I was having a hard time attending Church with Mom before the Supreme Court ended access to Abortion.  When they said Pelosi and Biden should not get communion, I questioned if I should take Mom to church.  I ended up deciding I was doing it for my Mom, and I was not going to voice my frustrations to my Mom, I will just keep taking her to church as often as I can.  I really think that they need to at least attempt to Pack the Court.  If they wait until after the next elections, they might not have the votes to do it.  Lift the filibuster.  I don't get why they even attempt to keep it in place.  The Republicans have shown time and time again that if they want to eliminate it to get something done they will.  If it only exists until someone has a compelling reason to get rid of it, you might as well just get rid of it now.

[daisylu]

I was just reading this article about how SCOTUS is chipping away at separation of church and state.



link

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

I really, really want to see a variety of different faiths other than Christian to exercise their right to pray/ritualize in the public/state sphere. It needs to be done en masse. 

[Deleted]

Jun 28, 2022 9:52:17 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I really, really want to see a variety of different faiths other than Christian to exercise their right to pray/ritualize in the public/state sphere. It needs to be done en masse. 

I agree. I'm in church every Sunday (and sometimes I preach the sermon) but my denomination believes that abortion is a matter of personal conscience so most of us are horrified by the development of zero-abortion state laws.

When my friends on FB post things about how there ought to be prayer in the schools again I ask if it's OK if the students face Mecca and pray several times a day.

Crickets.

[bean29]

picture deleted.

This is my DD and her boyfriend. They attended a Sikh wedding Sunday. The wedding was an Uncle of DD’s BFF since 3rd grade. They treat her as family. DH and I were also invited, but were not able to attend. DD is wearing a borrowed gown. DD said they are very expensive. I would not want DD to convert, but have never worried about it. I don’t want other’s beliefs diminished so mine can be elevated. I just think we should keep Church & State separate, and have ecumenical events where we can all agree. Just don’t think this praying football coach in any way represents ecumenical beliefs.

Don’t quote I will delete the pic in a bit.

[thyme4change]

Jun 28, 2022 9:52:17 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I really, really want to see a variety of different faiths other than Christian to exercise their right to pray/ritualize in the public/state sphere. It needs to be done en masse. 

Years ago NPR interviewed a constitutional lawyer who argued in the SC. He had two cases in a row - one he got a symbol from a non-Christian religious removed from public land. The next one he argued that putting a monument of the 10 commandments on public land was just. He saw absolutely no hypocrisy in his arguments, and was confident he was correct in both cases.

Somehow, this court will find a way to ban public prayer unless it is Christian. The only hope now is that Christians will eventually turn on each other because they have the "one true faith" and all the other churches are heresy.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 28, 2022 10:46:07 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I don’t want other’s beliefs diminished so mine can be elevated. I just think we should keep Church & State separate, and have ecumenical events where we can all agree. Just don’t think this praying football coach in any way represents ecumenical beliefs.

Don’t quote I will delete the pic in a bit.

It isn’t the fact that he’s praying, but the belief that if the players do not join him on the field, they won’t get playing time.  

You don’t think this is a problem?  Liken this to your boss praying to Mecca 4x/day.  If you don’t join him, it’s implied you get worse assignments or passed over for a raise.  How well would that go over?

Whose ecumenical events?  Jewish?  Muslim?  Buddist?  Sikh?  Your daughter went voluntarily to a Sikh wedding, but this was not a quid pro quo event.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 28, 2022 11:02:40 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jun 28, 2022 10:46:07 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I don’t want other’s beliefs diminished so mine can be elevated. I just think we should keep Church & State separate, and have ecumenical events where we can all agree. Just don’t think this praying football coach in any way represents ecumenical beliefs.

Don’t quote I will delete the pic in a bit.

It isn’t the fact that he’s praying, but the belief that if the players do not join him on the field, they won’t get playing time.  

You don’t think this is a problem?  Liken this to your boss praying to Mecca 4x/day.  If you don’t join him, it’s implied you get worse assignments or passed over for a raise.  How well would that go over?

Whose ecumenical events?  Jewish?  Muslim?  Buddist?  Sikh?  Your daughter went voluntarily to a Sikh wedding, but this was not a quid pro quo event.  

My mom worked for a Catholic hospital and I can attest to the above.  No she didn't "have" to pray but there were mentioned made by higher ups when it was noticed she wasn't joining.  

And it doesn't matter what the hospital says or thinks just because you can "pray to whatever God you want" does not mean it isn't a microaggression.  How comfortable are you going to be during a public Catholic prayer praying along to Allah instead?  How comfortable do you feel that your religious rights are protected when every day you are forced to hear a Catholic prayer?

This is a private hospital so they can do what they want.  If Nebraska Medicine did that they would be in big trouble because of separate of church and state, you can file for religious discrimination even though they say "oh you don't have to join".  The fact that you have to hear it and they aren't making an effort to play prayers from other denominations is discriminatory.

There is a power imbalance going on between coach and player.  The mere impression the player has that they might get in trouble if they don't join is what matters.  The feeling of awkwardness and isolation and silent judgement if you don't join in even though it's your "right" to not join is what matters.  There is a layer of coercion there if your employer or coach or teacher or boss are engaging in a public display of prayer with you present.  

That is NOT the same thing as being invited to a private event such as a wedding.  You are NEVER obligated to attend a wedding and there is no chance of retaliation if you do not comply.  The couple are not people in a position of authority over you.  

If it is that damn important he can pray in private just like people said Colin should kneel in private and not on the NFL field because he is at his job and your  job is not the place to advertise your beliefs.

And can you imagine the uproar if the coach was Muslim and wanted to lead a prayer before the game on the field?

Why does Christianity get a pass?  

[stillmovingforward]

Agree with Drama. DS1 was in that position. He chose to quit soccer over it. Didn't tell us why until years later as the coach was underhanded about it (so knew it was wrong). We were super sad.

[bean29]

Jun 28, 2022 11:02:40 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jun 28, 2022 10:46:07 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I don’t want other’s beliefs diminished so mine can be elevated. I just think we should keep Church & State separate, and have ecumenical events where we can all agree. Just don’t think this praying football coach in any way represents ecumenical beliefs.

Don’t quote I will delete the pic in a bit.

It isn’t the fact that he’s praying, but the belief that if the players do not join him on the field, they won’t get playing time.  

You don’t think this is a problem?  Liken this to your boss praying to Mecca 4x/day.  If you don’t join him, it’s implied you get worse assignments or passed over for a raise.  How well would that go over?

Whose ecumenical events?  Jewish?  Muslim?  Buddist?  Sikh?  Your daughter went voluntarily to a Sikh wedding, but this was not a quid pro quo event.  

Yes, I agree with you.  That is what I was trying to say.  Are they going to rotate who leads the prayer so people of other faiths get equal time/exposure?  But as you say, when the one with the ability to decide who is on or off the team/playing field is leading the prayer, that is significant coercion.  I think it is wrong and the SC should have easily understood that.  They definitely are gong for a Theocracy and we need to pull out every stop we can to neutralize their power (ie. expand the court).  I don't think a recall would work, but they could try that too.

Eta.  I also don't agree with the school choice ruling where public funds are going to religious schools.  So if the church is teaching that it is ok to punish homosexuality by death we should fund that?  If they teach that women have no rights or that a husband can rape his wife, force her to give birth etc. that is ok? How about if the parents tell the woman who to marry, does she have any say in the matter?  

[TheOtherMe]

Many public universities want their athletes in Fellowship of Christian Athletes and say prayers before games.  They just don't do it on the court.

A CU women's basketball alumnae wrote a book about her experience as a lesbian in such an environment.  She said it wasn't led by the coach (also lesbian) but she knew about it and didn't stop it.  

She was shunned by her teammates off the court because she refused to participate in their religious events.  She used pseudonyms in her book but as someone who was close to the team, I could pick out every single player.  

A Black player was Muslim and she was also shunned off the court.

[billisonboard]

Jun 28, 2022 16:04:03 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Many public universities want their athletes in Fellowship of Christian Athletes and say prayers before games.  They just don't do it on the court.

A CU women's basketball alumnae wrote a book about her experience as a lesbian in such an environment.  She said it wasn't led by the coach (also lesbian) but she knew about it and didn't stop it.  

She was shunned by her teammates off the court because she refused to participate in their religious events.  She used pseudonyms in her book but as someone who was close to the team, I could pick out every single player.  

A Black player was Muslim and she was also shunned off the court.

Who did lead it? If it wasn't an official of the university, if it were player lead, then it wouldn't violate church/state separation.

[TheOtherMe]

The meetings of FCA were all on campus.  The prayer was in the locker room, probably without a coach present.

Our current coach mentions how the team says a prayer together before they take the court.  What if a player isn't Christian?

[billisonboard]

Jun 28, 2022 16:18:56 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

The meetings of FCA were all on campus.  The prayer was in the locker room, probably without a coach present.

Our current coach mentions how the team says a prayer together before they take the court.  What if a player isn't Christian?

People are allowed to pray on campus, even in a locker room. I do have an issue with prayers lead by Ochocinco of a public university even if the Supreme Court doesn't.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 28, 2022 16:14:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 28, 2022 16:04:03 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Many public universities want their athletes in Fellowship of Christian Athletes and say prayers before games.  They just don't do it on the court.

A CU women's basketball alumnae wrote a book about her experience as a lesbian in such an environment.  She said it wasn't led by the coach (also lesbian) but she knew about it and didn't stop it.  

She was shunned by her teammates off the court because she refused to participate in their religious events.  She used pseudonyms in her book but as someone who was close to the team, I could pick out every single player.  

A Black player was Muslim and she was also shunned off the court.

Who did lead it? If it wasn't an official of the university, if it were player lead, then it wouldn't violate church/state separation.

And it wouldn’t raise the possibility of coercion.  

[stillmovingforward]

And the constant microaggression gets really old and wears you down. Every day, pick pick pick. Just stop! Leave one place where you don't have to be reminded that you and your family are not like the vocal ones.

[jerseygirl]

Different religions with different prayers not really a problem.
Many organizations use a ‘non-denomination’ or eucumenical prayer

I did read that the coach knelt on the field after the game when coaches no longer had responsibility. Personally this seems weird to me. Family went to many parochial, Catholic, schools and never saw something like this

[pulmonarymd]

Why do we need any type of prayer at secular events. The country was founded on both freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion

[stillmovingforward]

It's amazing how many people think secular or inclusive prayers can include 'in Jesus' name' or similar.

[jerseygirl]

Jun 28, 2022 17:42:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Why do we need any type of prayer at secular events. The country was founded on both freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion

Not a need. But some organizations want this or adhere to their traditions
And it’s freedom from establishment of religion

[Tennesseer]

This was a news article from this morning.

Atheist worker fired after refusing to attend company’s Christian prayer in NC, feds say

A home repair company’s mandatory daily Christian prayer sessions for its employees were becoming “less tolerable” for an atheist construction manager who refused to continue attending — resulting in his firing in North Carolina, federal officials said in a lawsuit.

His boss told him “he did not have to believe in God, and he did not have to like the prayer meetings, but he had to participate” before the worker was fired in the fall of 2020, according to a complaint filed by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission against the Greensboro-based business. This came after his pay was cut in half.

The worker was asked to lead a prayer session on one occasion, despite making his beliefs known, prior to losing his job with Aurora Pro Services, the EEOC said.

Now the company is being sued for religious discrimination and is accused of punishing workers who did not want to attend the meetings, which also involved Bible readings and roll call, the agency said in a Tuesday, June 28, news release. The meetings were mandatory from at least June 2020.

This comes after another worker, a customer service representative, was fired in January 2021 after she felt the meetings, which went on for nearly an hour, were becoming “cult-like” and stopped attending due to her agnostic beliefs, according to the lawsuit. An agnostic individual does not commit to any view regarding the existence of a higher religious power.

Rest of article here: Atheist worker fired after refusing to attend company’s Christian prayer in NC, feds say

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 28, 2022 18:06:54 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Jun 28, 2022 17:42:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Why do we need any type of prayer at secular events. The country was founded on both freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion

Not a need. But some organizations want this or adhere to their traditions
And it’s freedom from establishment of religion

No it is not. And if it is a government sponsored event, there should be no prayer. Again, private entities c as n do what they want. As others have pointed out, all of you supporting this would have a fit if a Muslim prayer was what was being done. Religion is a private matter, leave it in that sphere

[jerseygirl]

Jun 28, 2022 18:40:56 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jun 28, 2022 18:06:54 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Not a need. But some organizations want this or adhere to their traditions
And it’s freedom from establishment of religion

No it is not. And if it is a government sponsored event, there should be no prayer. Again, private entities c as n do what they want. As others have pointed out, all of you supporting this would have a fit if a Muslim prayer was what was being done. Religion is a private matter, leave it in that sphere

[br

It’s not me ‘supporting this’
I don’t think government sponsored events should have prayer
But from our little town’s meetings to the Congress there are prayers

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 28, 2022 18:54:48 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Jun 28, 2022 18:40:56 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

No it is not. And if it is a government sponsored event, there should be no prayer. Again, private entities c as n do what they want. As others have pointed out, all of you supporting this would have a fit if a Muslim prayer was what was being done. Religion is a private matter, leave it in that sphere

[br

It’s not me ‘supporting this’
I don’t think government sponsored events should have prayer
But from our little town’s meetings to the Congress there are prayers

Which is wrong. The Supreme Court got it wrong. Can you even admit that?

Prayer belongs in private and at private events. There is no place for it in public, whether it is town meetings, school events, or anything that is supported by tax dollars

[jerseygirl]

Jun 28, 2022 19:05:55 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jun 28, 2022 18:54:48 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

[br

It’s not me ‘supporting this’
I don’t think government sponsored events should have prayer
But from our little town’s meetings to the Congress there are prayers

Which is wrong. The Supreme Court got it wrong. Can you even admit that?

Prayer belongs in private and at private events. There is no place for it in public, whether it is town meetings, school events, or anything that is supported by tax dollars

Excuse me, why are you making this personal?
Can I admit to that???

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 28, 2022 18:06:54 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Jun 28, 2022 17:42:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Why do we need any type of prayer at secular events. The country was founded on both freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion

Not a need. But some organizations want this or adhere to their traditions
And it’s freedom from establishment of religion

If my work leads a daily Christian prayer that IS establishing a religion.

If they aren't also leading daily non Christian prayers it is discrimination.

They are establishing they are a Christian company. It's okay if you're not if and only if you keep it quiet and still participate in the daily prayer (my momhad to hold hands and bow her head in meetings and yes it was required).

That is not supposed to be allowed. If your right to not he forced to pray to Allah is protected you can't force a Muslim to have to acknowledge Christian prayer.

And if we're going to argue religion cannot be established the the Supreme Court can't rule from a Christian perspective.

But they've done a super good PR campaign and turned into "originalism" then argue its ot Theocracy because the founders were secular.

[billisonboard]

Jun 28, 2022 19:28:14 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jun 28, 2022 18:06:54 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Not a need. But some organizations want this or adhere to their traditions
And it’s freedom from establishment of religion

If my work leads a daily Christian prayer that IS establishing a religion.

If they aren't also leading daily non Christian prayers it is discrimination.

They are establishing they are a Christian company. It's okay if you're not if and only if you keep it quiet and still participate in the daily prayer (my momhad to hold hands and bow her head in meetings and yes it was required).

That is not supposed to be allowed. If your right to not he forced to pray to Allah is protected you can't force a Muslim to have to acknowledge Christian prayer.

And if we're going to argue religion cannot be established the the Supreme Court can't rule from a Christian perspective.

But they've done a super good PR campaign and turned into "originalism" then argue its ot Theocracy because the founders were secular.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ...

Much like the 2nd, people tend to ignore the first few words.

[raeoflyte]

Jun 28, 2022 10:01:02 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jun 28, 2022 9:52:17 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I really, really want to see a variety of different faiths other than Christian to exercise their right to pray/ritualize in the public/state sphere. It needs to be done en masse. 

I agree. I'm in church every Sunday (and sometimes I preach the sermon) but my denomination believes that abortion is a matter of personal conscience so most of us are horrified by the development of zero-abortion state laws.

When my friends on FB post things about how there ought to be prayer in the schools again I ask if it's OK if the students face Mecca and pray several times a day.

Crickets.

I hope your Facebook friends stop and think about you arguing that position and maybe come around.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

www.cnn.com/2022/06/29/opinions/supreme-court-bulldozing-separation-church-state-perry/index.html


Moderately conservative Justices Sandra O'Connor and Anthony Kennedy (no relation to the president or the football coach) added two more components to neutrality. States' relation to religion should neither appear to endorse it nor coerce people, especially students, to participate in it. Applying this test, in 1992, Kennedy struck down the practice of prayers offered by clergy at public school commencements.


The Supreme Court first adopted the wall metaphor in an 1878 case upholding a federal law against polygamy in the territories. Justice Hugo Black became its most prolific champion, defining it explicitly in a 1947 case where he distinguished between allowing government reimbursement of bus fare to religious-school students' parents and banning state aid directly to parochial schools. He applied it in 1962 to overturn compelled state-written prayer in public schools. Then-President Kennedy responded that parents could encourage their children to pray at home and in houses of worship.

As the founders feared, when religious faith becomes the guiding force in politics, the historic American experiment in creating a pluralistic republic is most at risk. Allowing the utmost religious freedom, within the bounds of high walls between church and state, has spared the US from the kinds of religious wars that have plagued human history and riled modern nations.

There is no need for that coach to be praying on the field in front of students and parents.  That makes those who aren't religious uncomfortable and forces people to at least pretend to participate because you know everyone is looking around to see who else is joining in.  It is also incredibly uncomfortable and discriminatory against religions who know they could risk possible violence against themselves and their community if they were to dare pray on the 50 yard line.

The fact that the school allows it gives the appearance, in front of students, staff and their families, that the school endorses Christianity and not only endorses it but does so over all other religions because notice nobody is invited to lead a different type of prayer after the dude is done.

He can pray in his own damn house before or after the game.  The fact he needs to grandstand from the 50 yard line has absolutely jack shit to do with his love of Jesus.