Roe vs Wade Overturned!

[Opti]

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but this is a wonderful Oped IMO.

www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/op-ed-fetal-personhood-has-a-whiff-of-medieval-theology/ar-AA11Hpv0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bb897da182d74728a481aead80ff4fe4

Is a pregnant body one person or two? If you believe the antiabortion movement, the answer is clear: A pregnant body is two distinct persons and one of those persons — the woman — does not have the right to take away the “life” of the other.”

But this argument rests on a presumption about what constitutes a person.

Is a tiny clump of cells a distinct human being? And what do we even mean by “distinct human being”?

In modern Western philosophy, particularly since Descartes, a person is conceived of as an entity with independent intellectual agency. “I think therefore I am,” he famously declared. Descartes, a Catholic, was putting into secular terms a way of categorizing that he’d adapted from the church, which has traditionally held that human being-ness is predicated on an individual self with free will, and thus the capacity to distinguish right from wrong.

So, let’s get back to the fetus. A small bunch of cells clearly doesn’t have free will. It doesn’t have a will at all. It can’t make moral or intellectual choices. It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

[Icelandic Woman]

Ha ha so true!

[scgal]

Sept 11, 2022 19:38:42 GMT -5 Opti said:

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but this is a wonderful Oped IMO.

www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/op-ed-fetal-personhood-has-a-whiff-of-medieval-theology/ar-AA11Hpv0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bb897da182d74728a481aead80ff4fe4

Is a pregnant body one person or two? If you believe the antiabortion movement, the answer is clear: A pregnant body is two distinct persons and one of those persons — the woman — does not have the right to take away the “life” of the other.”

But this argument rests on a presumption about what constitutes a person.

Is a tiny clump of cells a distinct human being? And what do we even mean by “distinct human being”?

In modern Western philosophy, particularly since Descartes, a person is conceived of as an entity with independent intellectual agency. “I think therefore I am,” he famously declared. Descartes, a Catholic, was putting into secular terms a way of categorizing that he’d adapted from the church, which has traditionally held that human being-ness is predicated on an individual self with free will, and thus the capacity to distinguish right from wrong.

So, let’s get back to the fetus. A small bunch of cells clearly doesn’t have free will. It doesn’t have a will at all. It can’t make moral or intellectual choices. It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

Brain activity can be detected at around 45 days so its ok to abort at 12 weeks? 

[Opti]

Sept 16, 2022 18:18:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 11, 2022 19:38:42 GMT -5 Opti said:

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but this is a wonderful Oped IMO.

www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/op-ed-fetal-personhood-has-a-whiff-of-medieval-theology/ar-AA11Hpv0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bb897da182d74728a481aead80ff4fe4

Is a pregnant body one person or two? If you believe the antiabortion movement, the answer is clear: A pregnant body is two distinct persons and one of those persons — the woman — does not have the right to take away the “life” of the other.”

But this argument rests on a presumption about what constitutes a person.

Is a tiny clump of cells a distinct human being? And what do we even mean by “distinct human being”?

In modern Western philosophy, particularly since Descartes, a person is conceived of as an entity with independent intellectual agency. “I think therefore I am,” he famously declared. Descartes, a Catholic, was putting into secular terms a way of categorizing that he’d adapted from the church, which has traditionally held that human being-ness is predicated on an individual self with free will, and thus the capacity to distinguish right from wrong.

So, let’s get back to the fetus. A small bunch of cells clearly doesn’t have free will. It doesn’t have a will at all. It can’t make moral or intellectual choices. It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

Brain activity can be detected at around 45 days so its ok to abort at 12 weeks? 

I think its OK to abort up to the time of viability outside the mother's womb. I think its ok to abort if the fetus is dying, because the water broke before viability or something awful has been discovered that means if carried to term, the baby will die in the first couple hours or first few days of its life post birth. 

Chickens and calfs get killed regularly for our food with more brain activity than a fetus has at 45 days. I define life by the union of the soul with a mature body. I'm not as enamored as some with the body of a fetus pre viability as nature seems to kill off a fair amount on its own. We should not make laws IMO that make that process any harder on women who are already alive and deserve to stay so along with the families and others that depend on them. I do not think a pre viability fetus should have more rights than a full grown adult female.

[giramomma]

Sept 16, 2022 18:18:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 11, 2022 19:38:42 GMT -5 Opti said:

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but this is a wonderful Oped IMO.

www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/op-ed-fetal-personhood-has-a-whiff-of-medieval-theology/ar-AA11Hpv0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bb897da182d74728a481aead80ff4fe4

Is a pregnant body one person or two? If you believe the antiabortion movement, the answer is clear: A pregnant body is two distinct persons and one of those persons — the woman — does not have the right to take away the “life” of the other.”

But this argument rests on a presumption about what constitutes a person.

Is a tiny clump of cells a distinct human being? And what do we even mean by “distinct human being”?

In modern Western philosophy, particularly since Descartes, a person is conceived of as an entity with independent intellectual agency. “I think therefore I am,” he famously declared. Descartes, a Catholic, was putting into secular terms a way of categorizing that he’d adapted from the church, which has traditionally held that human being-ness is predicated on an individual self with free will, and thus the capacity to distinguish right from wrong.

So, let’s get back to the fetus. A small bunch of cells clearly doesn’t have free will. It doesn’t have a will at all. It can’t make moral or intellectual choices. It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

Brain activity can be detected at around 45 days so its ok to abort at 12 weeks? 

From what to expect: www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/fetal-brain-nervous-system/

"That said, the brainstem, which controls vital functions like heart rate and breathing, isn’t mostly complete until the end of the second trimester, and the cerebral cortex doesn’t take up its duties until the third trimester.

In fact, the cerebral cortex — which is responsible for voluntary actions, thinking and feeling — only starts to work around the end of pregnancy, with simple electrical activity detectable in regions associated with senses (like touch) and motor skills in premature babies."

[TheOtherMe]

DN1 and his wife have realized since their pregnancy that the heartbeat shown to them on the ultra sound was not a heart beat in those early ultra sounds.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 16, 2022 18:18:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 11, 2022 19:38:42 GMT -5 Opti said:

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but this is a wonderful Oped IMO.

www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/op-ed-fetal-personhood-has-a-whiff-of-medieval-theology/ar-AA11Hpv0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bb897da182d74728a481aead80ff4fe4

Is a pregnant body one person or two? If you believe the antiabortion movement, the answer is clear: A pregnant body is two distinct persons and one of those persons — the woman — does not have the right to take away the “life” of the other.”

But this argument rests on a presumption about what constitutes a person.

Is a tiny clump of cells a distinct human being? And what do we even mean by “distinct human being”?

In modern Western philosophy, particularly since Descartes, a person is conceived of as an entity with independent intellectual agency. “I think therefore I am,” he famously declared. Descartes, a Catholic, was putting into secular terms a way of categorizing that he’d adapted from the church, which has traditionally held that human being-ness is predicated on an individual self with free will, and thus the capacity to distinguish right from wrong.

So, let’s get back to the fetus. A small bunch of cells clearly doesn’t have free will. It doesn’t have a will at all. It can’t make moral or intellectual choices. It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

Brain activity can be detected at around 45 days so its ok to abort at 12 weeks? 

So the fetus is mulling over Schrödinger's cat at 12 weeks?

[pulmonarymd]

To prove brain death, we do an apnea test. If you fail ghat, even if you have some brain activity on eeg, if you cannot keep your carbon dioxide level below a certain level, you are brain dead.

Try again, scgal. Maybe at some point you will get something in medicine right

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2022 18:33:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 16, 2022 18:18:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

Brain activity can be detected at around 45 days so its ok to abort at 12 weeks? 

I think its OK to abort up to the time of viability outside the mother's womb. I think its ok to abort if the fetus is dying, because the water broke before viability or something awful has been discovered that means if carried to term, the baby will die in the first couple hours or first few days of its life post birth. 

Chickens and calfs get killed regularly for our food with more brain activity than a fetus has at 45 days. I define life by the union of the soul with a mature body. I'm not as enamored as some with the body of a fetus pre viability as nature seems to kill off a fair amount on its own. We should not make laws IMO that make that process any harder on women who are already alive and deserve to stay so along with the families and others that depend on them. I do not think a pre viability fetus should have more rights than a full grown adult female.

And I believe in no abortion only in extreme cases big deal. The article you posted said there is no brain and I pointed out that there is brain activity at 12 weeks. The article is crap. 

In many cases the abortion is not just a bunch of cells that pro abortionist like to think, the fetus has arms, legs a head the baby is forming yea lets rip it out and throw it away just sick

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2022 21:03:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

To prove brain death, we do an apnea test. If you fail ghat, even if you have some brain activity on eeg, if you cannot keep your carbon dioxide level below a certain level, you are brain dead.

Try again, scgal. Maybe at some point you will get something in medicine right

OOOH the great DR has spoken. If you try to read what I wrote it was about brain activity I said nothing about brain dead just that there is activity at 12 weeks. 

So go try to impress someone else with your google knowledge.

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 17, 2022 7:27:12 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2022 21:03:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

To prove brain death, we do an apnea test. If you fail ghat, even if you have some brain activity on eeg, if you cannot keep your carbon dioxide level below a certain level, you are brain dead.

Try again, scgal. Maybe at some point you will get something in medicine right

OOOH the great DR has spoken. If you try to read what I wrote it was about brain activity I said nothing about brain dead just that there is activity at 12 weeks. 

So go try to impress someone else with your google knowledge.

Glad you recognize my superiority

YOU mentioned brain activity. Anti-abortion activists do that to try to prove that the fetus is alive, to show that it is wrong. You are now backtracking. Brain death criteria do not mention brain activity by eeg at all, which is what they are using to show brain activity. You tried to prove a point, and now do not like it because I refuted it.

Maybe your daughter can enlighten you

[scgal]

Sept 17, 2022 8:19:13 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sept 17, 2022 7:27:12 GMT -5 scgal said:

OOOH the great DR has spoken. If you try to read what I wrote it was about brain activity I said nothing about brain dead just that there is activity at 12 weeks. 

So go try to impress someone else with your google knowledge.

Glad you recognize my superiority

YOU mentioned brain activity. Anti-abortion activists do that to try to prove that the fetus is alive, to show that it is wrong. You are now backtracking. Brain death criteria do not mention brain activity by eeg at all, which is what they are using to show brain activity. You tried to prove a point, and now do not like it because I refuted it.

Maybe your daughter can enlighten you

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

[Opti]

Sept 17, 2022 7:25:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2022 18:33:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think its OK to abort up to the time of viability outside the mother's womb. I think its ok to abort if the fetus is dying, because the water broke before viability or something awful has been discovered that means if carried to term, the baby will die in the first couple hours or first few days of its life post birth. 

Chickens and calfs get killed regularly for our food with more brain activity than a fetus has at 45 days. I define life by the union of the soul with a mature body. I'm not as enamored as some with the body of a fetus pre viability as nature seems to kill off a fair amount on its own. We should not make laws IMO that make that process any harder on women who are already alive and deserve to stay so along with the families and others that depend on them. I do not think a pre viability fetus should have more rights than a full grown adult female.

And I believe in no abortion only in extreme cases big deal. The article you posted said there is no brain and I pointed out that there is brain activity at 12 weeks. The article is crap. 

In many cases the abortion is not just a bunch of cells that pro abortionist like to think, the fetus has arms, legs a head the baby is forming yea lets rip it out and throw it away just sick

Odds are I am far more pro life than you are as I look at the entire life cycle, not just 9 months or less. Nor do I discount the impact to the woman involved and her family. This push by the GOP has already made maternal mortality the highest here compared to all industrialized nations. Apparently not satisfied with that, we now need to push our infant mortality up and make sure all those crackhead babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and those hampered by bad diet and other conditions into the world to make you all feel better about yourselves. It's not like the GOP and their supporters are planning to increase funding to support this burden, oh no, they are still actively trying to make it harder to support the children born to the poor or with extreme medical conditions.

I think that's sick. The soul can always find a new body before birth in my spiritual opinion. More of the aborted babies than probably either of us realize are aborted by people who wanted them. I do not know all the reasons, but there is more out there than I knew. One woman became blind in one eye and was losing sight in another because of her pregnancy. The abortion did not return her sight but prevented her from becoming totally blind and worse. Sometimes things go wrong and having a dying or decaying fetus inside a woman can kill her or at times reduce her health enough she takes a long time to recover and may never return to her former state of health.

Plus, in a land of sexists, I do not want to incentivize rape and have the US home to more people with violence and anti-social tendencies in the gene pool. We have enough of that already. I don't find just because the heart or brain started forming, important enough to choose how some woman lives or possibly dies. I'm not that sick or cruel. I'm far more concerned about the unwanted or surprise babies that are killed or left to die. By the unwanted toddlers being murdered, beaten, starved or tossed off a bridge to drown.
Abortion early on to me is far superior to the suffering that occurs in those events. 

[ken a.k.a OMK]

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

If you want to be taken seriously here, that attitude won't get you any respect. Without respect your opinion has no meaning in a discussion. 

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 17, 2022 12:37:43 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 8:19:13 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Glad you recognize my superiority

YOU mentioned brain activity. Anti-abortion activists do that to try to prove that the fetus is alive, to show that it is wrong. You are now backtracking. Brain death criteria do not mention brain activity by eeg at all, which is what they are using to show brain activity. You tried to prove a point, and now do not like it because I refuted it.

Maybe your daughter can enlighten you

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

You know, I know I am a physician. Don’t believe me, ask moon. She will confirm it. But I suspect you won’t believe her either.

You were the one who wrote brain waves, not me. Silly of me to take what you say seriously sorry nice you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. My bad

[Opti]

I also disagree with the artificial limit of 12 weeks or anytime really before viability because many birth defects are not going to be known until 12 weeks or later. 


fetalmedicine.org/education/fetal-abnormalities/spine/open-spina-bifida


Open spina bifida

Prevalence:

1 in 1,000 fetuses at 12 weeks’ gestation.

Prognosis:

The 5-year mortality rate is about 35%, with 20% dying during the first 12 months of life. About 25% of fetuses with spina bifida are stillborn (Note this means 25% do not survive until birth. If I did my math correctly, less than half make it past 5 yrs. old.)
The surviving infants usually have paralysis in the lower limbs and double incontinence; despite the associated hydrocephalus requiring surgery, intelligence is often normal.


fetalmedicine.org/education/fetal-abnormalities/brain/acrania

Acrania

Prevalence:

1 in 1,000 at 12 weeks’ gestation.

Ultrasound diagnosis:

Absence of cranial vault and cerebral hemispheres.

At 12 weeks acrania is suspected by absence of the normally ossified skull and distortion of the brain (exencephaly). At >16 weeks the brain is destroyed (anencephaly). Too bad about that part of the brain that developed at 12 weeks. 


Vein of Galen aneurysm

Prevalence:

1 in 25,000 births.

Ultrasound diagnosis:

Supratentorial mid-line translucent elongated cyst with active arteriovenous flow within the cyst demonstrated by color Doppler.

The defect develops in the early first trimester, but the aneurysm becomes sonographically apparent just in the third trimester.

Prognosis:

One third have a good outcome after postnatal intervention by embolization. One third die during the procedure and one third survive but with neurodevelopmenal delay.

[moon/Laura]

Sept 17, 2022 13:18:43 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

If you want to be taken seriously here, that attitude won't get you any respect. Without respect your opinion has no meaning in a discussion. 

that attitude and the constant trolling is about to get her shown the door.

As was pointed out a while back, there is a huge difference in basic electrical impulses and having enough brain development to sustain life. And 12 weeks is not when that happens. Of course, your sanctimonious self chooses to ignore that very importance difference.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Sept 17, 2022 12:37:43 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 8:19:13 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Glad you recognize my superiority

YOU mentioned brain activity. Anti-abortion activists do that to try to prove that the fetus is alive, to show that it is wrong. You are now backtracking. Brain death criteria do not mention brain activity by eeg at all, which is what they are using to show brain activity. You tried to prove a point, and now do not like it because I refuted it.

Maybe your daughter can enlighten you

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

Cut it out.  This makes you sound stupid.  If you want to debate, debate.  However, you are not making points.

Brain waves does not indicate a functioning brain any more than beating cells can indicate a functional heart.  I can (and have) make heart cells beat in a Petri dish.  It’s not hard.   Does this mean it is a viable person? Cells are set up to do the activity they are meant to do long before they work in conjunction of other cells to form a functioning organ.  

[tallguy]

Sept 17, 2022 14:07:52 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Sept 17, 2022 12:37:43 GMT -5 scgal said:

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

Cut it out.  This makes you sound stupid.  If you want to debate, debate.  However, you are not making points.

Brain waves does not indicate a functioning brain any more than beating cells can indicate a functional heart.  I can (and have) make heart cells beat in a Petri dish.  It’s not hard.   Does this mean it is a viable person? Cells are set up to do the activity they are meant to do long before they work in conjunction of other cells to form a functioning organ.  

That ship has LONG since sailed, I'm afraid.  

[scgal]

Sept 17, 2022 13:48:54 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:18:43 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

If you want to be taken seriously here, that attitude won't get you any respect. Without respect your opinion has no meaning in a discussion. 

that attitude and the constant trolling is about to get her shown the door.

As was pointed out a while back, there is a huge difference in basic electrical impulses and having enough brain development to sustain life. And 12 weeks is not when that happens. Of course, your sanctimonious self chooses to ignore that very importance difference.

Do you people even bother to read what was posted?  It stated there was no brain I merely pointed out that there is a brain, you cannot have brain electrical activity without a brain. I was pointing out that the article is incorrect. The board expert physician immediately went into full phd mode to prove what is and is not a brain the rest is talking about viability. Just like most democrate talk before they think or read. 

[scgal]

Sept 17, 2022 13:16:00 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 17, 2022 7:25:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

And I believe in no abortion only in extreme cases big deal. The article you posted said there is no brain and I pointed out that there is brain activity at 12 weeks. The article is crap. 

In many cases the abortion is not just a bunch of cells that pro abortionist like to think, the fetus has arms, legs a head the baby is forming yea lets rip it out and throw it away just sick

Odds are I am far more pro life than you are as I look at the entire life cycle, not just 9 months or less. Nor do I discount the impact to the woman involved and her family. This push by the GOP has already made maternal mortality the highest here compared to all industrialized nations. Apparently not satisfied with that, we now need to push our infant mortality up and make sure all those crackhead babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and those hampered by bad diet and other conditions into the world to make you all feel better about yourselves. It's not like the GOP and their supporters are planning to increase funding to support this burden, oh no, they are still actively trying to make it harder to support the children born to the poor or with extreme medical conditions.

I think that's sick. The soul can always find a new body before birth in my spiritual opinion. More of the aborted babies than probably either of us realize are aborted by people who wanted them. I do not know all the reasons, but there is more out there than I knew. One woman became blind in one eye and was losing sight in another because of her pregnancy. The abortion did not return her sight but prevented her from becoming totally blind and worse. Sometimes things go wrong and having a dying or decaying fetus inside a woman can kill her or at times reduce her health enough she takes a long time to recover and may never return to her former state of health.

Plus, in a land of sexists, I do not want to incentivize rape and have the US home to more people with violence and anti-social tendencies in the gene pool. We have enough of that already. I don't find just because the heart or brain started forming, important enough to choose how some woman lives or possibly dies. I'm not that sick or cruel. I'm far more concerned about the unwanted or surprise babies that are killed or left to die. By the unwanted toddlers being murdered, beaten, starved or tossed off a bridge to drown.
Abortion early on to me is far superior to the suffering that occurs in those events. 

oh I'm sure you are I am far from pro life just anti abortion

[scgal]

Sept 17, 2022 13:42:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sept 17, 2022 12:37:43 GMT -5 scgal said:

refuted oooh dr google has spoken....Hold on maam i'll show you i'm superior let me turn on google yep you have a sore throat.....

You know, I know I am a physician. Don’t believe me, ask moon. She will confirm it. But I suspect you won’t believe her either.

You were the one who wrote brain waves, not me. Silly of me to take what you say seriously sorry nice you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. My bad

I'm sure you are, but my dear Dr you like to flaunt it like you are the end all for medical discussion. So this is real simple if there is electrical brain waves detected is there a brain? The article was commenting about abortion being ok since there was no brain I was refuting that not viability just the article was wrong. 

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Just like most democrate talk before they think or read. 

 You just don't get it do you? I find it interesting when the uninformed right blame the dems for exactly what they do and say. 

[scgal]

Sept 17, 2022 13:16:00 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 17, 2022 7:25:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

And I believe in no abortion only in extreme cases big deal. The article you posted said there is no brain and I pointed out that there is brain activity at 12 weeks. The article is crap. 

In many cases the abortion is not just a bunch of cells that pro abortionist like to think, the fetus has arms, legs a head the baby is forming yea lets rip it out and throw it away just sick

Odds are I am far more pro life than you are as I look at the entire life cycle, not just 9 months or less. Nor do I discount the impact to the woman involved and her family. This push by the GOP has already made maternal mortality the highest here compared to all industrialized nations. Apparently not satisfied with that, we now need to push our infant mortality up and make sure all those crackhead babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and those hampered by bad diet and other conditions into the world to make you all feel better about yourselves. It's not like the GOP and their supporters are planning to increase funding to support this burden, oh no, they are still actively trying to make it harder to support the children born to the poor or with extreme medical conditions.

I think that's sick. The soul can always find a new body before birth in my spiritual opinion. More of the aborted babies than probably either of us realize are aborted by people who wanted them. I do not know all the reasons, but there is more out there than I knew. One woman became blind in one eye and was losing sight in another because of her pregnancy. The abortion did not return her sight but prevented her from becoming totally blind and worse. Sometimes things go wrong and having a dying or decaying fetus inside a woman can kill her or at times reduce her health enough she takes a long time to recover and may never return to her former state of health.

Plus, in a land of sexists, I do not want to incentivize rape and have the US home to more people with violence and anti-social tendencies in the gene pool. We have enough of that already. I don't find just because the heart or brain started forming, important enough to choose how some woman lives or possibly dies. I'm not that sick or cruel. I'm far more concerned about the unwanted or surprise babies that are killed or left to die. By the unwanted toddlers being murdered, beaten, starved or tossed off a bridge to drown.
Abortion early on to me is far superior to the suffering that occurs in those events. 

So crackhead babies, fetal alcohol, poor family those kids don't deserve to live. Damn I seen dogs get better consideration. Wow just Wow

[tallguy]

Sept 17, 2022 15:36:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:16:00 GMT -5 Opti said:

Odds are I am far more pro life than you are as I look at the entire life cycle, not just 9 months or less. Nor do I discount the impact to the woman involved and her family. This push by the GOP has already made maternal mortality the highest here compared to all industrialized nations. Apparently not satisfied with that, we now need to push our infant mortality up and make sure all those crackhead babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and those hampered by bad diet and other conditions into the world to make you all feel better about yourselves. It's not like the GOP and their supporters are planning to increase funding to support this burden, oh no, they are still actively trying to make it harder to support the children born to the poor or with extreme medical conditions.

I think that's sick. The soul can always find a new body before birth in my spiritual opinion. More of the aborted babies than probably either of us realize are aborted by people who wanted them. I do not know all the reasons, but there is more out there than I knew. One woman became blind in one eye and was losing sight in another because of her pregnancy. The abortion did not return her sight but prevented her from becoming totally blind and worse. Sometimes things go wrong and having a dying or decaying fetus inside a woman can kill her or at times reduce her health enough she takes a long time to recover and may never return to her former state of health.

Plus, in a land of sexists, I do not want to incentivize rape and have the US home to more people with violence and anti-social tendencies in the gene pool. We have enough of that already. I don't find just because the heart or brain started forming, important enough to choose how some woman lives or possibly dies. I'm not that sick or cruel. I'm far more concerned about the unwanted or surprise babies that are killed or left to die. By the unwanted toddlers being murdered, beaten, starved or tossed off a bridge to drown.
Abortion early on to me is far superior to the suffering that occurs in those events. 

So crackhead babies, fetal alcohol, poor family those kids don't deserve to live. Damn I seen dogs get better consideration. Wow just Wow

Those children might have a better chance if Republicans as a whole were not so against support for poor families....

[billisonboard]

Is it necessary to have an abortion law? 

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 17, 2022 15:33:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:42:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

You know, I know I am a physician. Don’t believe me, ask moon. She will confirm it. But I suspect you won’t believe her either.

You were the one who wrote brain waves, not me. Silly of me to take what you say seriously sorry nice you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. My bad

I'm sure you are, but my dear Dr you like to flaunt it like you are the end all for medical discussion. So this is real simple if there is electrical brain waves detected is there a brain? The article was commenting about abortion being ok since there was no brain I was refuting that not viability just the article was wrong. 

Did you or did you not state there was brain activity. It is not my fault that you are inarticulate. Unfortunately, I am not a mind reader.

Dead people have a brain, yet they have no brain activity.

Own what you wrote. If you meant you can detect brain tissue, then you should state that. But I am just going by what you said. Brain tissue is a necessary but not sufficient requirement to bring alive.

Maybe your daughter can explain it to you

[Opti]

Sept 17, 2022 15:21:48 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:48:54 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

that attitude and the constant trolling is about to get her shown the door.

As was pointed out a while back, there is a huge difference in basic electrical impulses and having enough brain development to sustain life. And 12 weeks is not when that happens. Of course, your sanctimonious self chooses to ignore that very importance difference.

Do you people even bother to read what was posted?  It stated there was no brain I merely pointed out that there is a brain, you cannot have brain electrical activity without a brain. I was pointing out that the article is incorrect. The board expert physician immediately went into full phd mode to prove what is and is not a brain the rest is talking about viability. Just like most democrate talk before they think or read. 

I think you didn't get the thrust of the sentence. I think this is what you are referring to -

It doesn’t yet have a brain, let alone a mind. If, as Christianity and modern Western philosophy predicate, humanness requires mental agency, in what sense is a cluster of cells a human being?

I bolded the important bit. What you are willing to count as a brain and what the author is willing to count as a brain is very different.
Our brain stem does not make us human, it just regulates our body. The higher functions of the brain that make us human and not just an animal really start growing and forming in the third trimester. The brain continues to grow through young adulthood and it is possible the reason many do not remember things prior to age three is that brain structure does not support that kind of memory and recall until later.

[Opti]

Sept 17, 2022 15:36:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:16:00 GMT -5 Opti said:

Odds are I am far more pro life than you are as I look at the entire life cycle, not just 9 months or less. Nor do I discount the impact to the woman involved and her family. This push by the GOP has already made maternal mortality the highest here compared to all industrialized nations. Apparently not satisfied with that, we now need to push our infant mortality up and make sure all those crackhead babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and those hampered by bad diet and other conditions into the world to make you all feel better about yourselves. It's not like the GOP and their supporters are planning to increase funding to support this burden, oh no, they are still actively trying to make it harder to support the children born to the poor or with extreme medical conditions.

I think that's sick. The soul can always find a new body before birth in my spiritual opinion. More of the aborted babies than probably either of us realize are aborted by people who wanted them. I do not know all the reasons, but there is more out there than I knew. One woman became blind in one eye and was losing sight in another because of her pregnancy. The abortion did not return her sight but prevented her from becoming totally blind and worse. Sometimes things go wrong and having a dying or decaying fetus inside a woman can kill her or at times reduce her health enough she takes a long time to recover and may never return to her former state of health.

Plus, in a land of sexists, I do not want to incentivize rape and have the US home to more people with violence and anti-social tendencies in the gene pool. We have enough of that already. I don't find just because the heart or brain started forming, important enough to choose how some woman lives or possibly dies. I'm not that sick or cruel. I'm far more concerned about the unwanted or surprise babies that are killed or left to die. By the unwanted toddlers being murdered, beaten, starved or tossed off a bridge to drown.
Abortion early on to me is far superior to the suffering that occurs in those events. 

So crackhead babies, fetal alcohol, poor family those kids don't deserve to live. Damn I seen dogs get better consideration. Wow just Wow

That's not what I said, but again I'm a soul plus body believer. I don't know why you and others in the pro birth movement are so hung up on preserving any egg and sperm combo that joins. Nature isn't. I think the estimate is around 50% or more of those joinings actually do not make it past 4 weeks. 

Poor families, those with crack and meth issues, etc. IMO should be able to choose when and how they bring a new life into the world. Its not as if you are going to support that being nor the anti-abortion crusaders. An enormous amount of people who have abortions go on to have other children and entire families that they would not have had had they been forced to carry to term instead of chose to abort. Anti-abortion folks are often against Plan B which works in the same beginning time frame that nature does a huge amount of culling. 

Maybe you can work on those cheating politicians who force their mistresses to abort instead of owning up to their infidelity and supporting the child they created. When those hypocrites actually walk the walk about conceived life instead of the desire to control mortals with less means, we can revisit this.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Sept 17, 2022 15:33:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 17, 2022 13:42:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

You know, I know I am a physician. Don’t believe me, ask moon. She will confirm it. But I suspect you won’t believe her either.

You were the one who wrote brain waves, not me. Silly of me to take what you say seriously sorry nice you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. My bad

I'm sure you are, but my dear Dr you like to flaunt it like you are the end all for medical discussion. So this is real simple if there is electrical brain waves detected is there a brain? The article was commenting about abortion being ok since there was no brain I was refuting that not viability just the article was wrong. 

Brain waves does not indicate brain activity any more than cells beating in a Petri dish can function as a heart. I very clearly told you that cells do not FUNCTION until they can all work in concert. That doesn’t stop the cells from what is essentially practicing.