djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 14:18:05 GMT -5
incidentally, i think the Vox article is mistitled. Lippmann saw this as a Republic. he also didn't think it would fail. Public Opinion is a set of recommendations to "improve" the Republic.
and let's remember that Lippmann was not only wildly influential in his own lifetime, but he STILL influences how politics in the US works. i am not saying this with some sense of satisfaction. on the contrary, i am critical of the method, as i believe it has lead us inexorably to Trumpism.
his model of "emotionally potent oversimplication" has been bundled in the form of lies, weaponized, and delivered to the gullible. i blame him for not only showing us the gun, but loading it and aiming it. the only thing remaining is the fatal shot.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 14:40:20 GMT -5
After all, here we are, almost a century later, and America has become more powerful, more tolerant, more wealthy, and even more democratic.
this might have been true for the first half of that century. i am not sure that ANY of it is true over the last half century.
The world, he argues, is big and it moves fast and the speed of communication in the age of mass media forces journalists to speak through slogans and simplified interpretations. (And this doesn’t even touch the problem of partisanship in a commercialized media landscape.)
this is true, but to defend Lippmann for a minute, he saw the role of elites in this society as a "single vision". that is rather naiive and idealistic from my point of view, but if you see it that way, then partisanship is not part of that thinking.
i will admit that Lippmann had enough bandwidth for that, because he himself acknowledged that the landscape was filled with competing visions. it was this tension precisely that Lippmann felt would be too much for the average voter: to ferret out those views. it would be left to smart guys like him to do it.
the quote from Lippmann about reader bias is extraordinarily prescient:
This is the plight of the reader of the general news. If he is to read it at all he must be interested, that is to say, he must enter into the situation and care about the outcome ... The more passionately involved he becomes, the more he will tend to resent not only a different view, but a disturbing bit of news. That is why many a newspaper finds that, having honestly evoked the partisanship of its readers, it can not easily, supposing the editor believes the facts warrant it, change position.
this is precisely the problem we see with "tribalism" in facts today.
Dewey's solution doesn't solve that problem. you can be surrounded by a family of intelligent peers, having high minded discussions, and it won't change the fact that the world outside of your wonderful little village is falling apart.
Lippmann feared that the citizenry would abandon the public square and give themselves over to propaganda. That’s exactly what happened, and yet American democracy has done remarkably well over the last century.
this is wrong at both ends. first of all, Lippmann wanted the citizenry OUT of public life. and secondly, democracy, as he is calling it, has not done well here for about 50 years. i can't really comment about other places. as an American, i have lived an insular life.
Maybe, as Dewey taught, we need to educate and empower more citizens.
i am with him, there. but i think what he says about Lippmann's positions is contradictory and sometimes wrong.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 14:45:41 GMT -5
in short, i think that Lippmann got the "problem of democracy" exactly right. i think his solution is atrocious, and i think the evidence of that is Trump. i think that Dewey's critique is correct, but his solution is too tribal and insular to work. in short, we are at the same impasse we were earlier- the Republican Elitist solution is unworkable, and so is the Democratic Socialist one.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,476
|
Post by billisonboard on Apr 30, 2022 17:16:30 GMT -5
i thought i stated that i found Lippmann too cynical.i also disagree with his fundamental premise. but that doesn't mean i agree wholeheartedly with Chomsky, either. incidentally, Chomsky was educated in a Deweyite School, which is no doubt when he learned about Lippmann. as the Vox article mentions, Lippmann and Dewey had longrunning debate about how to "fix" democracy. that article is rather long, but i earmarked it, bills. it raises a LOT of the issues we have been discussing. good find. edit: i should add that this schism is at the CORE of our governance in the US. we are a Democratic Republic, not a direct democracy. Lippmann had no misgivings about that. Dewey and Chomsky do. i wish i could be optimistic enough that i could breathe Chomsky air. but i just can't. NOTE: the article mentions that this is "fashionable" now. i think it is inevitable. if a person is not slightly shaken by what happened in the US in 2016 and 2020, then he really need to blow out the cobwebs. i don't welcome the sleight. One of the challenges for me of this medium is that I will be looking for/reading items, taking time to carefull6 ready a post, or simply have time pass due to distraction - then posting only to discover that another person has posted something during that time that would have impacted what I post if I had seen it before posting.
|
|
ripvanwinkle
Well-Known Member
All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke 1729 -1797
Joined: Jan 9, 2011 22:36:42 GMT -5
Posts: 1,354
|
Post by ripvanwinkle on Apr 30, 2022 17:55:57 GMT -5
I think there was subterfuge involved and further investigation will probably show it. But he lost and I've moved on.
Carroll Independent School District is wrong and I think they will have to remove the clause. I hope someone sues and wins.
My state ballot arrived today. Maybe there is better clowns in here to replace the existing clowns I have in congress now
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 17:57:04 GMT -5
i tend to type a bunch of posts all at once. i think of it as a bad habit, if you are wondering. but it won't hurt me either of us when i am doing it at 2 in the morning, your time.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 17:59:25 GMT -5
I think there was subterfuge involved and further investigation will probably show it. But he lost and I've moved on.
there is no evidence to support that. given the fact that this has been investigated sixty times already, and we are already two years out of the primaries, when do you expect that train to come in?
|
|
ripvanwinkle
Well-Known Member
All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke 1729 -1797
Joined: Jan 9, 2011 22:36:42 GMT -5
Posts: 1,354
|
Post by ripvanwinkle on Apr 30, 2022 18:41:53 GMT -5
I think there was subterfuge involved and further investigation will probably show it. But he lost and I've moved on.
there is no evidence to support that. given the fact that this has been investigated sixty times already, and we are already two years out of the primaries, when do you expect that train to come in? Well it took many years for the Gulf of Tonkin incident to be found out as not happening. See the movie The Fog of War. And there have been many more incidences of the govt and other people hiding secrets and 60 years later investigations brought out the truth.
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,384
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 30, 2022 19:29:18 GMT -5
there is no evidence to support that. given the fact that this has been investigated sixty times already, and we are already two years out of the primaries, when do you expect that train to come in? Well it took many years for the Gulf of Tonkin incident to be found out as not happening. See the movie The Fog of War. And there have been many more incidences of the govt and other people hiding secrets and 60 years later investigations brought out the truth. Just like a conservative, don’t let facts interfere with your belief. Trump lost fair and square. Deal with it. This has been litigated ad nauseum and was laughed out of court. Let’s us know when you have proof that will stand up in court
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 19:48:55 GMT -5
there is no evidence to support that. given the fact that this has been investigated sixty times already, and we are already two years out of the primaries, when do you expect that train to come in? Well it took many years for the Gulf of Tonkin incident to be found out as not happening. See the movie The Fog of War. And there have been many more incidences of the govt and other people hiding secrets and 60 years later investigations brought out the truth. well, neither of us will be around sixty years. but i will also add that elections are very public things. it is not like missions seen by a handful of men in some far away sea with no cell phones or cameras. these days, a man can't FART without half the globe knowing about it. but seriously, rip- you going to take this one to your grave? or are you going to give up in the next year or two?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 19:58:21 GMT -5
my personal opinion? this was the most monitored election in US history. you could not have cheated to any measurable degree with 15 years of planning and a billion dollars to do it.
but if you don't believe me, i would suggest consulting an elections expert. if the GOP REALLY believed in the fraud theory, they would have hired one. there are actually people that both monitor elections and do forensics for a living. ttbomk, the GOP has never even spoken to one.
that doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
it shouldn't pass it for anyone else.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Apr 30, 2022 21:05:57 GMT -5
there is no evidence to support that. given the fact that this has been investigated sixty times already, and we are already two years out of the primaries, when do you expect that train to come in? Well it took many years for the Gulf of Tonkin incident to be found out as not happening. See the movie The Fog of War. And there have been many more incidences of the govt and other people hiding secrets and 60 years later investigations brought out the truth. A movie? You have GOT to be kidding! If movies are anything to go by, then Ben Affleck rescued all those Iranian hostages in Argo single-handedly. It was the Canadians. They risked their lives, with barely a mention. A movie, indeed!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 22:24:13 GMT -5
Fog Of War was a documentary. it was McNamera's confession that there was no second incident (the one that Johnson used to push the GOT Resolution through Congress) that rip is referring to.
but it was 40 years, not 60. i might live that long. if i am lucky.
|
|