New Homeland security thought police

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 10:30:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think you are considerably less worried than me, bills.
i don't think we are doing fine at all.
i think we are near an institutional crisis.
i won't say civil war, because we are not quite there yet.
the institutional crisis comes first.

i hope i am wrong, but i am not waiting to find out.
i will be living abroad in 2024.  for SURE.

I think it is that I am less concerned about the impending institutional crisis then you. I tend to agree with Tommy from my link above.

i like Tommy quite a bit, but the Republic of today is NOTHING like the Republic of 1787.

i cited your letter in my response above.  would appreciate your indulgence.

[Tennesseer]

Why no replies to reply #1 and reply #5,  ripvanwinkle?

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 10:26:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

one should keep in mind that in this phrase:


The people can not be all, and always, well informed.

referred to white male landowners.
this is an extremely narrow view of "informed electorate".

a more generous view was taken by Chomsky (i am using the term generous sarcastically) in Manufacturing consent, where he cites Lippmann's view of the electorate:

Now there are two "functions" in a democracy: The specialized class, the responsible men, carry out the executive function, which means they do the thinking and planning and understand the common interests. Then, there is the bewildered herd, and they have a function in democracy too. Their function in a democracy, [Lippmann] said, is to be "spectators," not participants in action. But they have more of a function r than that, because it’s a democracy. Occasionally they are allowed to lend their weight to one or another member of the specialized class. In other words, they’re allowed to say, "We want you to be our leader" or "We want you to be our leader." That’s because it’s a democracy and not a totalitarian state. That’s called an election. But once they’ve lent their weight to one or another member of the specialized class they’re supposed to sink back and become spectators of action, but not participants. That’s in a properly functioning democracy.

this is how our Republic has evolved- a governing elite and a marginalized electorate.  what the GOP is doing now, discouraging voting, basically, is not really new.  it is the vision that liberals like Lippmann had nearly a century ago.  that common people are too stupid to govern, and should just shut up and buy.  we are reaping what we sow, now.  the marginalized stupid are sorta running things, and we are a couple heartbeats from fascism or Idiocrisy.  not sure which.

MY OPINION, of course.  feel free to share yours.

Interesting. Do you have a link to your quoted material so I can read more?

[djAdvocate]

bills- i quoted it IN TODO from a list of quotations, so you won't be getting much more, but here you go:

chomsky.info/mediacontrol03/

i misattributed it, however.  it is from Media Control.

this is (probably) the quote i was looking for:

aeon.co/videos/before-chomsky-there-was-lippmann-the-first-world-war-and-manufactured-consent

(18 minute video is embedded in this link)

[djAdvocate]

incidentally, that Lippman book (Public Opinion) was written in 1922, so it has been EXACTLY a century.  i believe "thundering herd" came from that book, if you have ever heard that phrase.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 10:43:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

bills- i quoted it IN TODO from a list of quotations, so you won't be getting much more, but here you go:

chomsky.info/mediacontrol03/

i misattributed it, however.  it is from Media Control.

this is (probably) the quote i was looking for:

aeon.co/videos/before-chomsky-there-was-lippmann-the-first-world-war-and-manufactured-consent

(18 minute video is embedded in this link)

Oh, there was much more there. Thank you.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 10:58:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:43:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

bills- i quoted it IN TODO from a list of quotations, so you won't be getting much more, but here you go:

chomsky.info/mediacontrol03/

i misattributed it, however.  it is from Media Control.

this is (probably) the quote i was looking for:

aeon.co/videos/before-chomsky-there-was-lippmann-the-first-world-war-and-manufactured-consent

(18 minute video is embedded in this link)

Oh, there was much more there. Thank you.

sure.  thoughts?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 10:30:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think you are considerably less worried than me, bills.
i don't think we are doing fine at all.
i think we are near an institutional crisis.
i won't say civil war, because we are not quite there yet.
the institutional crisis comes first.

i hope i am wrong, but i am not waiting to find out.
i will be living abroad in 2024.  for SURE.

I think it is that I am less concerned about the impending institutional crisis then you. I tend to agree with Tommy from my link above.

so, just to be clear, you propose NOTHING?  you propose letting this malaise run it's course?  i find that frightening.  moreover, i expect more from my government than to allow it to be stolen by lies.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 11:13:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:30:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think it is that I am less concerned about the impending institutional crisis then you. I tend to agree with Tommy from my link above.

so, just to be clear, you propose NOTHING?  you propose letting this malaise run it's course?  i find that frightening.  moreover, i expect more from my government than to allow it to be stolen by lies.

I also find these times frightening. I don't propose letting ... I just don't think we can prevent it from happening with a toothless government advisory board. And I see long term danger in creating that board.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 11:29:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 11:13:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so, just to be clear, you propose NOTHING?  you propose letting this malaise run it's course?  i find that frightening.  moreover, i expect more from my government than to allow it to be stolen by lies.

I also find these times frightening. I don't propose letting ... I just don't think we can prevent it from happening with a toothless government advisory board. And I see long term danger in creating that board.

ok.  one last question.

so, you view this commission as a GREATER danger than doing nothing?  because those are the only two alternatives i see in this discussion between us.  

perhaps you should suggest a third way.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 11:06:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:58:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oh, there was much more there. Thank you.

sure.  thoughts?

Okay, wow! A lot to unpack and a difficult medium in which to do it. Will do my best.

It seems you are proposing that we have moved from Lippmann's reality to one in which "the bewildered herd" is/has taking/taken control and that has to be stopped/reversed to prevent an institutional crisis from taking place. Chomsky seems to be supporting what has taken place with regards to people becoming more active. Or perhaps your thought is that government needs to take a lead role in easing the people's "bewilderment" so their activism is more in line with what you would like to see.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 11:35:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 11:29:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I also find these times frightening. I don't propose letting ... I just don't think we can prevent it from happening with a toothless government advisory board. And I see long term danger in creating that board.

ok.  one last question.

so, you view this commission as a GREATER danger than doing nothing?  because those are the only two alternatives i see in this discussion between us.  

perhaps you should suggest a third way.

It is not a commission. It is a permanent board and office staff.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:02:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 11:06:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sure.  thoughts?

Okay, wow! A lot to unpack and a difficult medium in which to do it. Will do my best.

It seems you are proposing that we have moved from Lippmann's reality to one in which "the bewildered herd" is/has taking/taken control and that has to be stopped/reversed to prevent an institutional crisis from taking place. Chomsky seems to be supporting what has taken place with regards to people becoming more active. Or perhaps your thought is that government needs to take a lead role in easing the people's "bewilderment" so their activism is more in line with what you would like to see.

sorry, i was unclear.  i wasn't asking you what Chomsky thinks, or what i think.  i already know that.

i was asking what YOU think.  let me ask the question more clearly.

earlier intellectuals like Lippmann were convinced that people could not think for themselves, and needed to be spoon fed propaganda to keep them off the rails, and out of the public discourse.  you can read all of that in his own words in Public Opinion.  and since that time, i would describe this as the prevailing view in Washington.  those are Chomskys words, but i happen to agree with them.

so the question i am asking is- now that the models of persuasion have moved from a well-meaning elite (i am using this term guardedly.  not all elites from earlier times were well meaning) to an elite that is ONLY interested in authority, and will LIE to obtain it, what do YOU think we should do about that?

if you will honor me with a response, i will give you MY view.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:07:52 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 11:35:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

ok.  one last question.

so, you view this commission as a GREATER danger than doing nothing?  because those are the only two alternatives i see in this discussion between us.  

perhaps you should suggest a third way.

It is not a commission. It is a permanent board and office staff.

that is not an answer.  but i will rephrase the question, even though NOTHING is permanent in life, and even less so in government:

so, you view this permanent board as a GREATER danger than doing nothing? because those are the only two alternatives i see in this discussion between us.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 11:35:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 11:29:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I also find these times frightening. I don't propose letting ... I just don't think we can prevent it from happening with a toothless government advisory board. And I see long term danger in creating that board.

ok.  one last question.

so, you view this commission as a GREATER danger than doing nothing?  because those are the only two alternatives i see in this discussion between us.  

perhaps you should suggest a third way.

My conservative nature is really showing itself here. (Not the political positions currently labeled by the name in American politics but my personality.) In the absence of an action that will have a positive impact, I do prpose no new action.

[djAdvocate]

i wish you the best of luck, but i fear that you, and what probably constitutes a majority of Americans (both well meaning ones like yourself, and not so well meaning ones, like Trump) will live to regret that position.

i presume your response would be the same to post 42?  if so, i owe you a reply.  if not, could you please respond now?

[weltschmerz]

Apr 28, 2022 23:13:02 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

I just saw on tv Homeland Security is creating a "Office of Disinformation Governance team" -  www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/28/dhs-created-disinformation-governance-team-police-/

The Department of Homeland Security has created a “disinformation” board led by a woman who has criticized First Amendment rights and dismissed troubling reports of Hunter Biden’s laptop as a “Trump campaign” ploy. DHS said "Homeland Security described the board’s expansive duties, saying it will combat the wide swath of disinformation. In the immediate term, its focus will be on disinformation surrounding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and on the messaging smuggling groups are peddling to would-be illegal immigrants, the department said".

This is a dangerous move in my opinion. The beginning of the end of the 1st amendment. Letting the govt decide what is true and what's not. Political boards like this and all other social sites would be under the microscope for spreading "disinformation". Watch out people, someone could turn us in.

You're OK with 'experts' going online and telling people that drinking piss will cure Covid?
You're OK with MTG claiming that Sandy Hook was a false flag operation and a staged event? How about her claims that Hillary and Huma Abedin were videotaped sexually assaulting a child, rippping off its face, and wearing it as a mask in a Satanic ritual?
How about that deady wildfires were started by the Rothchilds and their Jewish space lasers?

This shit has to stop!!  It's detrimental to the country and divides it even further.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:31:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Apr 28, 2022 23:13:02 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

I just saw on tv Homeland Security is creating a "Office of Disinformation Governance team" -  www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/28/dhs-created-disinformation-governance-team-police-/

The Department of Homeland Security has created a “disinformation” board led by a woman who has criticized First Amendment rights and dismissed troubling reports of Hunter Biden’s laptop as a “Trump campaign” ploy. DHS said "Homeland Security described the board’s expansive duties, saying it will combat the wide swath of disinformation. In the immediate term, its focus will be on disinformation surrounding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and on the messaging smuggling groups are peddling to would-be illegal immigrants, the department said".

This is a dangerous move in my opinion. The beginning of the end of the 1st amendment. Letting the govt decide what is true and what's not. Political boards like this and all other social sites would be under the microscope for spreading "disinformation". Watch out people, someone could turn us in.

You're OK with 'experts' going online and telling people that drinking piss will cure Covid?
You're OK with MTG claiming that Sandy Hook was a false flag operation and a staged event? How about her claims that Hillary and Huma Abedin were videotaped sexually assaulting a child, rippping off its face, and wearing it as a mask in a Satanic ritual?
How about that deady wildfires were started by the Rothchilds and their Jewish space lasers?

This shit has to stop!!  It's detrimental to the country and divides it even further.

weltz- what would you do to fix this problem, if anything?

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 12:21:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:02:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Okay, wow! A lot to unpack and a difficult medium in which to do it. Will do my best.

It seems you are proposing that we have moved from Lippmann's reality to one in which "the bewildered herd" is/has taking/taken control and that has to be stopped/reversed to prevent an institutional crisis from taking place. Chomsky seems to be supporting what has taken place with regards to people becoming more active. Or perhaps your thought is that government needs to take a lead role in easing the people's "bewilderment" so their activism is more in line with what you would like to see.

sorry, i was unclear.  i wasn't asking you what Chomsky thinks, or what i think.  i already know that.

i was asking what YOU think.  let me ask the question more clearly.

earlier intellectuals like Lippmann were convinced that people could not think for themselves, and needed to be spoon fed propaganda to keep them off the rails, and out of the public discourse.  you can read all of that in his own words in Public Opinion.  and since that time, i would describe this as the prevailing view in Washington.  those are Chomskys words, but i happen to agree with them.

so the question i am asking is- now that the models of persuasion have moved from a well-meaning elite (i am using this term guardedly.  not all elites from earlier times were well meaning) to an elite that is ONLY interested in authority, and will LIE to obtain it, what do YOU think we should do about that?

if you will honor me with a response, i will give you MY view.

Vote then out of office and elect a well- meaning elite again.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:35:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:21:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sorry, i was unclear.  i wasn't asking you what Chomsky thinks, or what i think.  i already know that.

i was asking what YOU think.  let me ask the question more clearly.

earlier intellectuals like Lippmann were convinced that people could not think for themselves, and needed to be spoon fed propaganda to keep them off the rails, and out of the public discourse.  you can read all of that in his own words in Public Opinion.  and since that time, i would describe this as the prevailing view in Washington.  those are Chomskys words, but i happen to agree with them.

so the question i am asking is- now that the models of persuasion have moved from a well-meaning elite (i am using this term guardedly.  not all elites from earlier times were well meaning) to an elite that is ONLY interested in authority, and will LIE to obtain it, what do YOU think we should do about that?

if you will honor me with a response, i will give you MY view.

Vote then out of office and elect a well- meaning elite again.

if people are being lied to about who that is, how could they possibly know who those people are?

ok, i will offer my solution.  it is even more slow and ponderous than yours, though far more specific.

i don't think either side likes being lied to.  so, we should agree on what are facts and what are not facts.  i KNOW that the GOP doesn't like fact checkers.  but that is because they believe so many things that are not true.  i think that we should have public debates on a wide variety of subjects, with noted intellectuals from both sides, and that the statements made should be subjected to review by fact checkers, and that the intellectuals should be forced to contend with that, and clarify their remarks.  if this can't be done, i can think of a dozen alternatives, but i think that we, as an electorate, need to be better informed about issues.  and since the MSM is not going to do it, and neither are politicians, that we need a third system to keep both honest.

the second thing that we need is to have 1-2 years of political science and critical thinking in high school.  it is more important than many other things we teach, if we want an electorate with discernment and the ability to discern fact from fiction.

the third thing i would like to see is FCC licenses revoked for private media companies that use the public airwaves to disseminate falsehoods.  the public airwaves are there for all of us, and should NOT be being used to accrete power for a limited number of private individuals.  the process for determining the threshold for falsehoods should be a matter of vigorous public debate.  this should probably be a federal statute, so Congress would be the best place to get it done.  the debate would undoubtedly center around whether lying is considered free speech, which would be a good debate to have.

and before anyone starts in by saying all of this stuff is impossible, i don't believe in what is not possible.  period.  if we want any of these things to happen, they could happen.  if we don't, then they won't.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 12:31:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wish you the best of luck, but i fear that you, and what probably constitutes a majority of Americans (both well meaning ones like yourself, and not so well meaning ones, like Trump) will live to regret that position.

i presume your response would be the same to post 42?  if so, i owe you a reply.  if not, could you please respond now?

Actually I decided a while back that I am going to live my life without regrets and it has made my life so much better that I am sorry I didn't decide to do it earlier.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 30, 2022 12:32:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:31:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You're OK with 'experts' going online and telling people that drinking piss will cure Covid?
You're OK with MTG claiming that Sandy Hook was a false flag operation and a staged event? How about her claims that Hillary and Huma Abedin were videotaped sexually assaulting a child, rippping off its face, and wearing it as a mask in a Satanic ritual?
How about that deady wildfires were started by the Rothchilds and their Jewish space lasers?

This shit has to stop!!  It's detrimental to the country and divides it even further.

weltz- what would you do to fix this problem, if anything?

I would ask for EVIDENCE if you say crap like that. No evidence? Your posts go *poof*, along with an explanation that your posts were bullshit.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:46:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:31:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wish you the best of luck, but i fear that you, and what probably constitutes a majority of Americans (both well meaning ones like yourself, and not so well meaning ones, like Trump) will live to regret that position.

i presume your response would be the same to post 42?  if so, i owe you a reply.  if not, could you please respond now?

Actually I decided a while back that I am going to live my life without regrets and it has made my life so much better that I am sorry I didn't decide to do it earlier.

fortunately, this sort of self serving edict fails normative ethics.

to err is human
to repent divine
to persist, devilish

[weltschmerz]

I want RipVan to answer, since he's the one whining about the 1st amendment. People are allowed to say the vilest things right now, fomenting hate against others. There's enough hate. How can you have a successful country if one half loathes the other half? It's ridiculous.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:48:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:32:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

weltz- what would you do to fix this problem, if anything?

I would ask for EVIDENCE if you say crap like that. No evidence? Your posts go *poof*, along with an explanation that your posts were bullshit.

seems logistically impossible to me, but at it beats tolerance of outrageous, harmful, and in some cases criminally negligent lying.

[billisonboard]

Apr 30, 2022 12:46:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:35:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Vote then out of office and elect a well- meaning elite again.

if people are being lied to about who that is, how could they possibly know who those people are?

ok, i will offer my solution.  it is even more slow and ponderous than yours, though far more specific.

i don't think either side likes being lied to.  so, we should agree on what are facts and what are not facts.  i KNOW that the GOP doesn't like fact checkers.  but that is because they believe so many things that are not true.  i think that we should have public debates on a wide variety of subjects, with noted intellectuals from both sides, and that the statements made should be subjected to review by fact checkers, and that the intellectuals should be forced to contend with that, and clarify their remarks.  if this can't be done, i can think of a dozen alternatives, but i think that we, as an electorate, need to be better informed about issues.  and since the MSM is not going to do it, and neither are politicians, that we need a third system to keep both honest.

the second thing that we need is to have 1-2 years of political science and critical thinking in high school.  it is more important than many other things we teach, if we want an electorate with discernment and the ability to discern fact from fiction.

the third thing i would like to see is FCC licenses revoked for private media companies that use the public airwaves to disseminate falsehoods.  the public airwaves are there for all of us, and should NOT be being used to accrete power for a limited number of private individuals.  the process for determining the threshold for falsehoods should be a matter of vigorous public debate.  this should probably be a federal statute, so Congress would be the best place to get it done.  the debate would undoubtedly center around whether lying is considered free speech, which would be a good debate to have.

and before anyone starts in by saying all of this stuff is impossible, i don't believe in what is not possible.  period.  if we want any of these things to happen, they could happen.  if we don't, then they won't.

Want to note I did read this post and have decided not to comment on its content.

[djAdvocate]

ok.  i will add two quick things to the discussion.  

during WW1, Wilson needed to create a public need to get an isolationist public to back his war.  he created an office of information, which i believe Lippmann was involved in.  that is just as brief aside to illustrate that lie factories can be both created OR dismantled.  they are not permanent features of social discourse.

second, i would advise you to check out the 18 minute video in the second link.  it is quite interesting, particularly the discussion of the "pseudo environment" that Lippmann spent his life postulating.

[djAdvocate]

i want to add one more thing, since i have mentioned Lippmann a lot in this thread.  

first of all, i think his analysis of the role of government in society is insightful and at times, poetic.  he is a brilliant writer, and a brilliant thinker.

he is also, from my perspective, inordinately cynical.  this is a view that i believe Chomsky and i would share.  

on the other hand, i find Chomsky far too optimistic.  he would not offer a solution to the problem i am asking about in this thread at all, because he is "ground up" politically.  he believes, unflinchingly, in the common man.  

until 2016 i was probably closer to Chomsky in my thinking than Lippmann.  now, i am far closer to Lippmann.  a ruthless pragmatism has overtaken me to the point where i can't fathom true self governance any more, except on a very small scale.  

[billisonboard]

Intellectuals have said democracy is failing for a century. They were wrong.

Which is why it’s important to note that as powerful as Lippmann’s diagnosis of democracy’s flaws is, it seems to have missed something essential about the elasticity of democratic systems. After all, here we are, almost a century later, and America has become more powerful, more tolerant, more wealthy, and even more democratic. Perhaps that divergence contains lessons for our present moment of panic, too.

[djAdvocate]

i thought i stated that i found Lippmann too cynical.
i also disagree with his fundamental premise.
but that doesn't mean i agree wholeheartedly with Chomsky, either.

incidentally, Chomsky was educated in a Deweyite School,
which is no doubt when he learned about Lippmann.
as the Vox article mentions, Lippmann and Dewey had
longrunning debate about how to "fix" democracy.

that article is rather long, but i earmarked it, bills.
it raises a LOT of the issues we have been discussing.
good find.  

edit: i should add that this schism is at the CORE of
our governance in the US.  we are a Democratic Republic,
not a direct democracy.  Lippmann had no misgivings about
that.  Dewey and Chomsky do.  i wish i could be optimistic
enough that i could breathe Chomsky air.  but i just can't.

NOTE: the article mentions that this is "fashionable" now.
i think it is inevitable.  if a person is not slightly shaken by
what happened in the US in 2016 and 2020, then he really
need to blow out the cobwebs.  i don't welcome the sleight.