ripvanwinkle
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Post by ripvanwinkle on Apr 28, 2022 23:13:02 GMT -5
The Department of Homeland Security has created a “disinformation” board led by a woman who has criticized First Amendment rights and dismissed troubling reports of Hunter Biden’s laptop as a “Trump campaign” ploy. DHS said "Homeland Security described the board’s expansive duties, saying it will combat the wide swath of disinformation. In the immediate term, its focus will be on disinformation surrounding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and on the messaging smuggling groups are peddling to would-be illegal immigrants, the department said". This is a dangerous move in my opinion. The beginning of the end of the 1st amendment. Letting the govt decide what is true and what's not. Political boards like this and all other social sites would be under the microscope for spreading "disinformation". Watch out people, someone could turn us in.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 28, 2022 23:29:04 GMT -5
The Department of Homeland Security has created a “disinformation” board led by a woman who has criticized First Amendment rights and dismissed troubling reports of Hunter Biden’s laptop as a “Trump campaign” ploy. DHS said "Homeland Security described the board’s expansive duties, saying it will combat the wide swath of disinformation. In the immediate term, its focus will be on disinformation surrounding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and on the messaging smuggling groups are peddling to would-be illegal immigrants, the department said". This is a dangerous move in my opinion. The beginning of the end of the 1st amendment. Letting the govt decide what is true and what's not. Political boards like this and all other social sites would be under the microscope for spreading "disinformation". Watch out people, someone could turn us in.
You are okay with disinformation like donald trump continuing to claim the 2020 election was rigged and stolen from him?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 28, 2022 23:33:29 GMT -5
outrageous hyperbole.
first of all, let's be clear. this woman is credentialed in the area of disinformation. she has been deeply involved in researching it for quite some time. so, you can stop putting expert in quotes.
second, this point about her being anti-first amendment is just untrue. what she stated in a tweet is that she was concerned about the impact that "free speech absolutists" like Musk will have on social media, particularly for minority views. i expressed a similar concern earlier today when i noted that Musk has indicated that he will tolerate hate speech, which obviously will drive minorities off the platform. it is THIS concern that she was addressing.
she knows, however, as do the rest of us, that freedom of speech is not guaranteed on any social media platform. these are private companies, and they can set rules of conduct on THEIR PROPERTY.
the article in the Moonie Times conflates the first amendment with the rights of private companies (the two have nothing to do with one another). i find it extremely ironic that the GOP has vacated it's position as an advocate for the rights of businesses to set the standards of conduct of those that occupy their corporate space. one could easily call this anti-business, but it is certainly not anti-first-amendment.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 28, 2022 23:37:49 GMT -5
hate speech is not protected by the first amendment. neither is incitement. there is NOTHING wrong with the government working to subvert, undermine, and contest such speech. in fact, it is what we would expect of a functioning government.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 0:10:13 GMT -5
it is a fundamental right of a social media company to police content.
period.
Musk;s attitude toward this right, insinuating that Twitter does not have it, is not only wrong, but frightening. forcing companies to spread propaganda is just as bad as censorship, imo.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 29, 2022 10:56:39 GMT -5
ripvanwinkle - the article below is related to the subject of your thread. Who is right regarding the issue in the article. Teachers in Southlake, Texas, asked to sign ‘non-disparagement’ agreementsSeven months after teachers at the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake, Texas, went public with their concerns about an administrator’s advice to balance books on the Holocaust with titles that show “opposing” perspectives, district employees this week discovered that a new clause had been added to their annual employment contracts, listed under the heading: “Non-Disparagement.” “You agree to not disparage, criticize, or defame the District, and its employees or officials, to the media,” it read. Four Carroll teachers, speaking on the condition that they not be named because they feared retaliation, said they were disturbed by the new contract language. “Only a district that is knowingly doing something wrong would choose to silence its entire staff,” one of them wrote in a text message to a reporter on Thursday. “I hadn’t yet decided if I was going to leave, but it seems the district decided for me!” another wrote. Officials for both the National Education Association and the Texas State Teachers Association, unions that represent teachers nationally and across Texas, condemned the contract language as an attempt to silence teachers. “This is the first time we have heard of a school district putting that language into a teacher contract,” said Clay Robison, a spokesman for the Texas State Teachers Association. “It is a rejection of a teacher’s fundamental First Amendment rights. A teacher also is a taxpayer, who is entitled to criticize a public school district.” In 2018, leaders in the Carroll school system promised and ultimately failed to make sweeping changes to address racism in the district following the release of a video of white high school students chanting the N-word. After the video went viral, dozens of parents, students and recent graduates came forward with stories of racist and anti-LGBTQ harassment at Carroll, a majority-white district that has grown more diverse in recent years. Since then, conservative candidates supported by Southlake Families PAC, a group formed to defeat the diversity plan, have won majority control of the Carroll school board and voted to kill the plan. Carroll was back in the national spotlight in October, after a district administrator was secretly recorded advising teachers that if they have a book about the Holocaust in the classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” viewpoint. The instruction was meant, in part, to help teachers comply with a new Texas law that requires educators to present multiple perspectives when discussing “widely debated and currently controversial” issues. News of the comment drew international outrage, including from Holocaust survivors, and the district later apologized and walked back those instructions. Teachers in Southlake, Texas, asked to sign ‘non-disparagement’ agreementsMichael Leroy, a labor law expert at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, said that prohibiting public school employees from criticizing their district “is absolutely indefensible under the Constitution,” adding that the new clause in Carroll’s teacher contracts is “clearly unconstitutional. I mean, that’s not even a close call.” Nondisparagement clauses are more common in the employment contracts of private companies, which are not subject to the First Amendment, Leroy said. A spokeswoman for the Carroll school system, about 30 miles northwest of Dallas, did not immediately comment on the new contract clause. Southlake’s schools have been the focus of national media coverage in recent years, particularly the district’s handing of students’ allegations of discrimination and bullying. That has placed the city at the center of a growing political battle over school programs, books and curricula on race, gender and sexuality that some conservatives have labeled critical race theory.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 29, 2022 11:15:50 GMT -5
But that's different
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 12:43:39 GMT -5
The instruction was meant, in part, to help teachers comply with a new Texas law that requires educators to present multiple perspectives when discussing “widely debated and currently controversial” issues. if it were me, i would fight these provisions on the basis that things like evolution, the holocaust, and climate change are not widely debated and controversial.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2022 14:21:50 GMT -5
When I imagine this being in place under Presidents Johnson and Nixon during the Vietnam/Watergate era, it makes me very uncomfortable. I see that as good reason to not support it now.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 15:26:09 GMT -5
how do you suggest we combat disinformation, bills?
and please don't say "just tell the truth". we have been doing that for six years, and 40% of the voting public still believes really crazy shit, like Obama being a Muslim Socialist, that Trump won the election, etc.
or do you simply not think it is a threat to our democracy?
this seems like a fairly minor incursion, so long as it is in an advisory capacity, and toothless. what harm do you see in it?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 15:28:58 GMT -5
PS- cleverly, Musk refers to HIMSELF as a "free speech absolutist". i say cleverly because anyone else who refers to MUSK in that way, and is even slightly critical of him and his goals is branded "anti free speech". i think i will change my name to Free Speech for that reason. pretty great thing to call yourself, if you ask me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 15:33:35 GMT -5
speaking of thought police, anyone remember the PMRC? now that was a legitimate threat to freedom of expression, imo. conservatives loved it, of course. the same people that are all in for Musk now. which is among 1000 reasons i don't trust him to run a social media company.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2022 17:56:11 GMT -5
how do you suggest we combat disinformation, bills? and please don't say "just tell the truth". we have been doing that for six years, and 40% of the voting public still believes really crazy shit, like Obama being a Muslim Socialist, that Trump won the election, etc. or do you simply not think it is a threat to our democracy?this seems like a fairly minor incursion, so long as it is in an advisory capacity, and toothless. what harm do you see in it? It not being advisory and toothless. I can't see Johnson nor Nixon leaving it as that. And I don't see it as worth the effort being advisory and toothless.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 18:51:44 GMT -5
how do you suggest we combat disinformation, bills? and please don't say "just tell the truth". we have been doing that for six years, and 40% of the voting public still believes really crazy shit, like Obama being a Muslim Socialist, that Trump won the election, etc. or do you simply not think it is a threat to our democracy?this seems like a fairly minor incursion, so long as it is in an advisory capacity, and toothless. what harm do you see in it? It not being advisory and toothless. I can't see Johnson nor Nixon leaving it as that. And I don't see it as worth the effort being advisory and toothless. i do. but i won't bother explaining why. your first sentence is missing a verb, btw. PS- i would appreciate an answer to the question, if you have a moment. do you NOT think that misinformation imperils our democracy?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2022 19:11:44 GMT -5
It not being advisory and toothless. I can't see Johnson nor Nixon leaving it as that. And I don't see it as worth the effort being advisory and toothless. i do. but i won't bother explaining why. your first sentence is missing a verb, btw. PS- i would appreciate an answer to the question, if you have a moment. do you NOT think that misinformation imperils our democracy? The difference between be, being, and been can be confusing to a lot of English learners.
Be, being and been are just different forms of the verb to be: Be is the infinitive, being can be the present participle or the gerund form, and been is the past participle.
link
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2022 19:32:29 GMT -5
i do. but i won't bother explaining why. your first sentence is missing a verb, btw. PS- i would appreciate an answer to the question, if you have a moment. do you NOT think that misinformation imperils our democracy? The difference between be, being, and been can be confusing to a lot of English learners.
Be, being and been are just different forms of the verb to be: Be is the infinitive, being can be the present participle or the gerund form, and been is the past participle.
link not interested in grammar. i just had to read it three times and then guess at what you were trying to say. so, do you think misinformation is a danger to our democracy or not?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2022 19:56:28 GMT -5
The difference between be, being, and been can be confusing to a lot of English learners.
Be, being and been are just different forms of the verb to be: Be is the infinitive, being can be the present participle or the gerund form, and been is the past participle.
link not interested in grammar. i just had to read it three times and then guess at what you were trying to say. so, do you think misinformation is a danger to our democracy or not? Okay, but at least now you know that it is proper grammar so hopefully next time you won't incorrectly claim it to be someone else's error.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2022 19:59:03 GMT -5
The difference between be, being, and been can be confusing to a lot of English learners.
Be, being and been are just different forms of the verb to be: Be is the infinitive, being can be the present participle or the gerund form, and been is the past participle.
link not interested in grammar. i just had to read it three times and then guess at what you were trying to say. so, do you think misinformation is a danger to our democracy or not? Misinformation is a danger to our democracy.
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ripvanwinkle
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Post by ripvanwinkle on Apr 29, 2022 20:50:06 GMT -5
I think SNL should have this on their show every Saturday. Would make for some good comedy sketches. And I haven't heard anything coming from the ACLU on this. You would think they would be all over this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -5
not interested in grammar. i just had to read it three times and then guess at what you were trying to say. so, do you think misinformation is a danger to our democracy or not? Okay, but at least now you know that it is proper grammar so hopefully next time you won't incorrectly claim it to be someone else's error. It not being advisory and toothless. you are saying this is correct? i have no idea what that means. NOTE: i FREELY admit that it might be my error. for example, for FIFTY YEARS, i have been using "lead" where i should have been using "led". so i clearly have some ingrained errors in my vocabulary and grammar. i was only so definitive because i can't read that. what does it mean?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 8:11:02 GMT -5
PS- i am TERRIBLE at "parts of speech". but it looks like that sentence is missing an "is" or a "will". it would make sense to me if it were "it will not be...." or "it is not...." but "it not being" makes no sense to me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 8:12:04 GMT -5
I think SNL should have this on their show every Saturday. Would make for some good comedy sketches. And I haven't heard anything coming from the ACLU on this. You would think they would be all over this. why? how does it violate civil rights or free speech?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 30, 2022 8:46:05 GMT -5
Okay, but at least now you know that it is proper grammar so hopefully next time you won't incorrectly claim it to be someone else's error. It not being advisory and toothless. you are saying this is correct? i have no idea what that means. NOTE: i FREELY admit that it might be my error. for example, for FIFTY YEARS, i have been using "lead" where i should have been using "led". so i clearly have some ingrained errors in my vocabulary and grammar. i was only so definitive because i can't read that. what does it mean? My concern is that at some future date that the board will be in a state of existence in which it is not advisory nor toothless.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 9:18:56 GMT -5
It not being advisory and toothless. you are saying this is correct? i have no idea what that means. NOTE: i FREELY admit that it might be my error. for example, for FIFTY YEARS, i have been using "lead" where i should have been using "led". so i clearly have some ingrained errors in my vocabulary and grammar. i was only so definitive because i can't read that. what does it mean? My concern is that at some future date that the board will be in a state of existence in which it is not advisory nor toothless. ah. yes. the drip drip drip of "deprival of liberties". ok. so, you don't like this board, but you DO see disinformation as a problem. what do you propose?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 30, 2022 9:52:28 GMT -5
My concern is that at some future date that the board will be in a state of existence in which it is not advisory nor toothless. ah. yes. the drip drip drip of "deprival of liberties". ok. so, you don't like this board, but you DO see disinformation as a problem. what do you propose? Taking into account the fact that this is not a new but just more visable problem ( link), I think we are doing fine with current efforts and don't need a government "solution".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5
ah. yes. the drip drip drip of "deprival of liberties". ok. so, you don't like this board, but you DO see disinformation as a problem. what do you propose? Taking into account the fact that this is not a new but just more visable problem ( link), I think we are doing fine with current efforts and don't need a government "solution". i think you are considerably less worried than me, bills. i don't think we are doing fine at all. i think we are near an institutional crisis. i won't say civil war, because we are not quite there yet. the institutional crisis comes first. i hope i am wrong, but i am not waiting to find out. i will be living abroad in 2024. for SURE.
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uncle23
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Post by uncle23 on Apr 30, 2022 10:18:49 GMT -5
...
my take is that I want to decide for myself what is disinformation and I can not do that when it is regulated...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 10:26:32 GMT -5
one should keep in mind that in this phrase:
The people can not be all, and always, well informed.
referred to white male landowners. this is an extremely narrow view of "informed electorate".
a more generous view was taken by Chomsky (i am using the term generous sarcastically) in Manufacturing consent, where he cites Lippmann's view of the electorate:
Now there are two "functions" in a democracy: The specialized class, the responsible men, carry out the executive function, which means they do the thinking and planning and understand the common interests. Then, there is the bewildered herd, and they have a function in democracy too. Their function in a democracy, [Lippmann] said, is to be "spectators," not participants in action. But they have more of a function r than that, because it’s a democracy. Occasionally they are allowed to lend their weight to one or another member of the specialized class. In other words, they’re allowed to say, "We want you to be our leader" or "We want you to be our leader." That’s because it’s a democracy and not a totalitarian state. That’s called an election. But once they’ve lent their weight to one or another member of the specialized class they’re supposed to sink back and become spectators of action, but not participants. That’s in a properly functioning democracy.
this is how our Republic has evolved- a governing elite and a marginalized electorate. what the GOP is doing now, discouraging voting, basically, is not really new. it is the vision that liberals like Lippmann had nearly a century ago. that common people are too stupid to govern, and should just shut up and buy. we are reaping what we sow, now. the marginalized stupid are sorta running things, and we are a couple heartbeats from fascism or Idiocrisy. not sure which.
MY OPINION, of course. feel free to share yours.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 30, 2022 10:27:52 GMT -5
... my take is that I want to decide for myself what is disinformation and I can not do that when it is regulated... even in the most frightening interpretation of the OP, it is difficult to see it as "regulation". so the more generous part of me thinks this response is silly.
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 30, 2022 10:30:45 GMT -5
Taking into account the fact that this is not a new but just more visable problem ( link), I think we are doing fine with current efforts and don't need a government "solution". i think you are considerably less worried than me, bills. i don't think we are doing fine at all. i think we are near an institutional crisis. i won't say civil war, because we are not quite there yet. the institutional crisis comes first. i hope i am wrong, but i am not waiting to find out. i will be living abroad in 2024. for SURE. I think it is that I am less concerned about the impending institutional crisis then you. I tend to agree with Tommy from my link above.
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