What are your thoughts on Lia Thomas MTF trans swimmer?

[pulmonarymd]

Genetic testing is not perfect either. A condition known as testicular feminization exists. These individuals are genetically XY; however, they are insensitive to effects of testosterone. Where do you place them. In the past many were raised as girls because they do not develop male secondary sex characteristics.

Requiring genital examination of adolescents seems like governmental overreach. But why am I surprised

[Opti]

Apr 14, 2022 9:19:11 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Genetic testing is not perfect either. A condition known as testicular feminization exists. These individuals are genetically XY; however, they are insensitive to effects of testosterone. Where do you place them. In the past many were raised as girls because they do not develop male secondary sex characteristics.

Requiring genital examination of adolescents seems like governmental overreach. But why am I surprised

IDK, but I do not like the idea requiring or making it lawful to require genital examination. How do you discover an individual is insensitive to the effects of testosterone?

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 14, 2022 9:37:03 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 14, 2022 9:19:11 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Genetic testing is not perfect either. A condition known as testicular feminization exists. These individuals are genetically XY; however, they are insensitive to effects of testosterone. Where do you place them. In the past many were raised as girls because they do not develop male secondary sex characteristics.

Requiring genital examination of adolescents seems like governmental overreach. But why am I surprised

IDK, but I do not like the idea requiring or making it lawful to require genital examination. How do you discover an individual is insensitive to the effects of testosterone?

They do not develop secondary sexual characteristics. Learning about it was so long ago for me, I no longer remember the details. I was just pointing out that there is no easy way out of this dilemma. No solution is foolproof.

Requiring genital exams is an awful overreach of governmental authority. To do it to teenagers makes it worse. And the reason to do it is so asinine it boggles the imagination. But welcome to America 2022.

[tallguy]

Apr 14, 2022 9:45:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 14, 2022 9:37:03 GMT -5 Opti said:

IDK, but I do not like the idea requiring or making it lawful to require genital examination. How do you discover an individual is insensitive to the effects of testosterone?

They do not develop secondary sexual characteristics. Learning about it was so long ago for me, I no longer remember the details. I was just pointing out that there is no easy way out of this dilemma. No solution is foolproof.

Requiring genital exams is an awful overreach of governmental authority. To do it to teenagers makes it worse. And the reason to do it is so asinine it boggles the imagination. But welcome to America 2022.

Or welcome to world athletics eighty years ago.  Physical examinations were the test back then, before chromosome testing and later hormone testing became the standard.  It would also be argued that it is not an overreach because people were choosing to compete and that was the price of making sure people were competing fairly.  There have long been various tests done on athletes to try and eliminate unfair advantage.  Drug testing for example.  Blood testing is another.  This certainly sounds worse, and maybe it is, but without fairness (to the extent that we can) competitive athletics becomes meaningless.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 14, 2022 10:03:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 14, 2022 9:45:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

They do not develop secondary sexual characteristics. Learning about it was so long ago for me, I no longer remember the details. I was just pointing out that there is no easy way out of this dilemma. No solution is foolproof.

Requiring genital exams is an awful overreach of governmental authority. To do it to teenagers makes it worse. And the reason to do it is so asinine it boggles the imagination. But welcome to America 2022.

Or welcome to world athletics eighty years ago.  Physical examinations were the test back then, before chromosome testing and later hormone testing became the standard.  It would also be argued that it is not an overreach because people were choosing to compete and that was the price of making sure people were competing fairly.  There have long been various tests done on athletes to try and eliminate unfair advantage.  Drug testing for example.  Blood testing is another.  This certainly sounds worse, and maybe it is, but without fairness (to the extent that we can) competitive athletics becomes meaningless.

I think there is a difference here. Professional athletes, those at that level are professional even if they are not paid, are mostly adults(even if they are 18/immature). High schoolers are teenagers/minors. Forcing a minor into a genital examination for a high school championship is ridiculous, IMHO. Requiring some sort of proof of gender at the world class level, where the stakes are significantly higher is different. Many of us put up with onerous requirements for a profession. I see professional athletics as being no different.

[tallguy]

Apr 14, 2022 10:18:02 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 14, 2022 10:03:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Or welcome to world athletics eighty years ago.  Physical examinations were the test back then, before chromosome testing and later hormone testing became the standard.  It would also be argued that it is not an overreach because people were choosing to compete and that was the price of making sure people were competing fairly.  There have long been various tests done on athletes to try and eliminate unfair advantage.  Drug testing for example.  Blood testing is another.  This certainly sounds worse, and maybe it is, but without fairness (to the extent that we can) competitive athletics becomes meaningless.

I think there is a difference here. Professional athletes, those at that level are professional even if they are not paid, are mostly adults(even if they are 18/immature). High schoolers are teenagers/minors. Forcing a minor into a genital examination for a high school championship is ridiculous, IMHO. Requiring some sort of proof of gender at the world class level, where the stakes are significantly higher is different. Many of us put up with onerous requirements for a profession. I see professional athletics as being no different.

Look at what is called "women's" gymnastics.  What would you guess is the median age for Olympic competitors?  Nadia Comaneci was 14 when she electrified the world in 1976.  The median age was in the 16s and 17s for the next twenty years or so.  Many have been seriously training for a decade even at that point.  The 1996 U.S. team, dubbed The Magnificent Seven, did not contain a single member in their 20s, and also contained a 14-year- old.  It became so distorted that the Olympics instituted an age limit so that 14- and 15-year-olds could not compete.  Is that then different because the competitors are world-class athletes instead of being "just" high-school kids?  Where is the line?  That is not the only sport, but it is the most obvious.  We hear about swimmers who are leaving the Olympics after their competition to go back to their high-school class.  There was, as I recall, a controversy about Chinese divers who were actually too young to compete under the age rule.  This will never be a simple matter to deal with.

  

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 14, 2022 10:48:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 14, 2022 10:18:02 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I think there is a difference here. Professional athletes, those at that level are professional even if they are not paid, are mostly adults(even if they are 18/immature). High schoolers are teenagers/minors. Forcing a minor into a genital examination for a high school championship is ridiculous, IMHO. Requiring some sort of proof of gender at the world class level, where the stakes are significantly higher is different. Many of us put up with onerous requirements for a profession. I see professional athletics as being no different.

Look at what is called "women's" gymnastics.  What would you guess is the median age for Olympic competitors?  Nadia Comaneci was 14 when she electrified the world in 1976.  The median age was in the 16s and 17s for the next twenty years or so.  Many have been seriously training for a decade even at that point.  The 1996 U.S. team, dubbed The Magnificent Seven, did not contain a single member in their 20s, and also contained a 14-year- old.  It became so distorted that the Olympics instituted an age limit so that 14- and 15-year-olds could not compete.  Is that then different because the competitors are world-class athletes instead of being "just" high-school kids?  Where is the line?  That is not the only sport, but it is the most obvious.  We hear about swimmers who are leaving the Olympics after their competition to go back to their high-school class.  There was, as I recall, a controversy about Chinese divers who were actually too young to compete under the age rule.  This will never be a simple matter to deal with.

  

I agree it is not a simple matter. The divers and gymnastics competitors are a different issue. It would be highly unlikely that a transwomen would ever qualify at that age without the use of hormone blockers. I think the age limits are too young, as it leads to them being put in unsafe conditions, as we saw with figure skating. I personally believe an age limit 0f 18 makes sense, but the sports that would be affected are not likely ones where the Lia Thomas issue would arise.

[tallguy]

Apr 14, 2022 10:53:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 14, 2022 10:48:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Look at what is called "women's" gymnastics.  What would you guess is the median age for Olympic competitors?  Nadia Comaneci was 14 when she electrified the world in 1976.  The median age was in the 16s and 17s for the next twenty years or so.  Many have been seriously training for a decade even at that point.  The 1996 U.S. team, dubbed The Magnificent Seven, did not contain a single member in their 20s, and also contained a 14-year- old.  It became so distorted that the Olympics instituted an age limit so that 14- and 15-year-olds could not compete.  Is that then different because the competitors are world-class athletes instead of being "just" high-school kids?  Where is the line?  That is not the only sport, but it is the most obvious.  We hear about swimmers who are leaving the Olympics after their competition to go back to their high-school class.  There was, as I recall, a controversy about Chinese divers who were actually too young to compete under the age rule.  This will never be a simple matter to deal with.

  

I agree it is not a simple matter. The divers and gymnastics competitors are a different issue. It would be highly unlikely that a transwomen would ever qualify at that age without the use of hormone blockers. I think the age limits are too young, as it leads to them being put in unsafe conditions, as we saw with figure skating. I personally believe an age limit 0f 18 makes sense, but the sports that would be affected are not likely ones where the Lia Thomas issue would arise.

Lia Thomas is a collegiate swimmer.  There have been 14-year-old gold medalists in swimming.  Donna De Varona won a relay gold in 1960 at the age of thirteen.  And I am not just talking about transwomen.  Your apparent contention was that high school-aged athletes are too young to be subjected to sex verification for athletics.  Clearly that is not the case.  Many young teens have shown themselves to be world champions. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 14, 2022 11:05:27 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 14, 2022 10:53:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I agree it is not a simple matter. The divers and gymnastics competitors are a different issue. It would be highly unlikely that a transwomen would ever qualify at that age without the use of hormone blockers. I think the age limits are too young, as it leads to them being put in unsafe conditions, as we saw with figure skating. I personally believe an age limit 0f 18 makes sense, but the sports that would be affected are not likely ones where the Lia Thomas issue would arise.

Lia Thomas is a collegiate swimmer.  There have been 14-year-old gold medalists in swimming.  Donna De Varona won a relay gold in 1960 at the age of thirteen.  And I am not just talking about transwomen.  Your apparent contention was that high school-aged athletes are too young to be subjected to sex verification for athletics.  Clearly that is not the case.  Many young teens have shown themselves to be world champions. 

You are right, there have been world class high school athletes. My bad.

[Spellbound454]

There are ways around this.

For example in Minors....There could be some sort of certification from the family doctor in the presence of a parent or chaperone
Someone who has been looking after the child for years will have access to all their information...... and it would be much less traumatic for the young person.