What are your thoughts on Lia Thomas MTF trans swimmer?

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2022 9:42:18 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 as we move to a open non-binary world.

Why would we ever do that?

Surely, It doesn't effect the vast majority of people..... so we cater for the vast majority of people ........ and make special consideration for those who don't fit the parameters.

There has been males, females and non binary in existence as long as there has been humans.

We can't turn our culture on its head for a small percentage of people.

I don't agree with prejudice and think that people should be whatever they want.... and  I'll respect that, of course.

but societies are formed from the population and no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none ... trumps anyone elses.

what does anyone's freedom of whatever have to do with the reality of someone else? 

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2022 9:00:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 11, 2022 20:08:28 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I have a hard time with this. I play recreational women's ice hockey. I have played with trans teammates at various stages of transition, in both directions. I recognize that recreational is very different from competitive, at levels far lower than NCAA and the Olympics, but we also still have guidelines...and far less stress about it. I took a (cherrypicked) slapshot off the throat from a MTF defenseman teammate that took a shot off the point. I was screening the goalie as a winger. should I sue the league? 🤷‍♀️

I also want to ask, for those who feel their should be tiers/siding scale/whatever isn't just "go compete" if you've ever heard the name Shawn Stinson. please look him up. I'll reserve further comment.

ETA: I stopped reading after the first paragraph before I started responding. IM(not so)HO, this is another dog whistle for the redneck white trash that votes Republican against their own best interests. 🤷‍♀️

I agree that this is being used as a "dog whistle" but I also know that at least one person on the planet (me) has honest concerns on how to address this issue as we move to a open non-binary world.

honest concerns are one thing, and respectful discussion is important to have. but the loudest people in the discussion aren't the ones with honest concerns. 

[Ryan]

I think this whole thing is ridiculous, but that's just me. Kids have been grouped together by age or gender for a long time to keep it somewhat balanced, even though there are plenty of situations of girls being better than boys or a 10 year old being better than a 12 year old. In those situations, I think it makes sense to allow the kid to ONLY play up. I'd be ok with a phenom female swimmer competing up to swim with the males, but the opposite does not seem right to me, especially if we're talking about taking away scholarship opportunities from other women.

If you're not willing to do that, then you should just combine all sports together and not break them down by male/female any longer.

I am also not very sympathetic because I don’t think it’s a God given right to be able to compete in a sport.

[raeoflyte]

Apr 12, 2022 3:58:37 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Yes, I agree that this can be one of the results of forcing kids to wait until they are 18 or older.

I disagree with this.

When this was all the rage a couple of years ago we had 12 youngsters who declared themselves transgender.... and we went to the trouble of arranging separate changing rooms and calling them different names always referring them to "they" instead of "he and she"

Two years on not one of them still thinks they are transgender...... and I think that's pretty much the pattern...... ie its quite rare.

Kids may simply be having gay feelings..... and that's perfectly normal and a normal part of our society if they grow up to be gay.

Leave them alone, kids have enough to contend with growing up through puberty with hormone surges. They don't need screwing up through  absorbing some adult concept before they are fully grown.


As for transgender people competing in athletics....... No

They may be psychologically (ie female) .... and its fine to feel that way. I have no prejudice.

but their bodies, muscle patterns, strength etc.... are their original gender and every cell they have will have original gender DNA.

Thats the fact.........  they cannot compete in a fair competition with people of their chosen gender.

I appreciate its difficult for those concerned, and its an emotive subject but there is a much larger body of people who spend their whole lives training to compete and be successful in their own categories
and we have to be fair to them.

No one gets hormones, let alone puberty blockers on a whim. But they are life saving treatments when needed. It will always be a big and difficult decision, but one that needs to be available.

[Spellbound454]

 No one gets hormones, let alone puberty blockers on a whim. But they are life saving treatments when needed. It will always be a big and difficult decision, but one that needs to be available.

The vast majority of youngsters who think they are transgender are just going through a phase.... There are a lot of emotions they have to cope with during puberty.

We need to reassure them, Its ok to feel confused, its ok to be emotional, its ok to be gay.


No youngster should be given hormone blockers or any other sex changing powerful drug whilst they are kids....It should never become the norm.

and should only ever be used in very rare circumstances.

Any surgery, in a minor, is abuse.


When youngsters have reached majority and had suitable assessment and counselling then they can begin to progress toward a different gender.

IMO I would advocate extreme caution as getting it wrong could ruin a youngsters life.

[Spellbound454]

 what does anyone's freedom of whatever have to do with the reality of someone else?

We are talking of transgender people competing in sport.

It may put the other competitors at a disadvantage.

[pulmonarymd]

Lots of things out of peoples control affect other athletes. This is not unique. It is just that people who had advantages are now being disadvantaged

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2022 12:30:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 what does anyone's freedom of whatever have to do with the reality of someone else?

We are talking of transgender people competing in sport.

It may put the other competitors at a disadvantage.

and you brought in freedom of religion, choice, and some others. what do any of those have to do with transgender athletes?

[Spellbound454]

Ok so there is a misunderstanding

 no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none

The above is on the human rights legislature .....its kind of shorthand for HR

and just because you have protection for something under the law doesn't mean you can deny someone else theirs

hence.......  "no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none ... trumps anyone elses"

hope that's a better explanation.

[Tiny]

Apr 12, 2022 9:42:18 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 as we move to a open non-binary world.

Why would we ever do that?

Surely, It doesn't effect the vast majority of people..... so we cater for the vast majority of people ........ and make special consideration for those who don't fit the parameters.

There has been males, females and non binary in existence as long as there has been humans.

We can't turn our culture on its head for a small percentage of people.

I don't agree with prejudice and think that people should be whatever they want.... and  I'll respect that, of course.

but societies are formed from the population and no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none ... trumps anyone elses.

Yeah, I guess it's ok to ask some people to live a life of lies and to never really feel like they fit in so that the rest of the people aren't made uncomfortable.   Seems like a totally reasonable request from the majority of people.      NOT!!!        
 
I'm sure everyone puts on their mask every morning and blends in and tries to get by no matter how they feel inside.  Put on a happy face!   And fake it to you make it (even when you KNOW you will NEVER make it).  How bad is your daily Fake it till you Make experience?     I gotta wonder how hard it is to go thru life saying/agreeing with/doing  stuff you don't really believe or agree with or have never experienced, or even like doing --  I'm guessing it's kind of lonely and it might make you feel like you are broken.  Sure sucks to watch everyone else navigating everyday life without having to "keep up appearances".   


I'm guessing that's what's turning our culture on it's head?   The idea some people would like to be able to maintain their personal integrity and not have to go thru every life living a lie?  And for everyone else to extend them some basic human rights and courtesy to them? 

Maybe I'm off base.   


(and where do you live -where there is no societal or cultural pressure to conform to the acceptable "norms"    Cause it's freaking EVERYWHERE.     I'm guessing you are wearing the clothes and shoes you chose this morning based on other people's opinions.... as in what made you look good/feel good (because of how other people would perceive you)  or would allow you to fit in with every one else....      ) 

[billisonboard]

Apr 12, 2022 23:43:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 12, 2022 9:42:18 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Why would we ever do that?

Surely, It doesn't effect the vast majority of people..... so we cater for the vast majority of people ........ and make special consideration for those who don't fit the parameters.

There has been males, females and non binary in existence as long as there has been humans.

We can't turn our culture on its head for a small percentage of people.

I don't agree with prejudice and think that people should be whatever they want.... and  I'll respect that, of course.

but societies are formed from the population and no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none ... trumps anyone elses.

Yeah, I guess it's ok to ask some people to live a life of lies and to never really feel like they fit in so that the rest of the people aren't made uncomfortable.   Seems like a totally reasonable request from the majority of people.      NOT!!!        
 
I'm sure everyone puts on their mask every morning and blends in and tries to get by no matter how they feel inside.  Put on a happy face!   And fake it to you make it (even when you KNOW you will NEVER make it).  How bad is your daily Fake it till you Make experience?     I gotta wonder how hard it is to go thru life saying/agreeing with/doing  stuff you don't really believe or agree with or have never experienced, or even like doing --  I'm guessing it's kind of lonely and it might make you feel like you are broken.  Sure sucks to watch everyone else navigating everyday life without having to "keep up appearances".   


I'm guessing that's what's turning our culture on it's head?   The idea some people would like to be able to maintain their personal integrity and not have to go thru every life living a lie?  And for everyone else to extend them some basic human rights and courtesy to them? 

Maybe I'm off base.   


(and where do you live -where there is no societal or cultural pressure to conform to the acceptable "norms"    Cause it's freaking EVERYWHERE.     I'm guessing you are wearing the clothes and shoes you chose this morning based on other people's opinions.... as in what made you look good/feel good (because of how other people would perceive you)  or would allow you to fit in with every one else....      ) 

At question at the start of the thread is the right to enter gender segregated sport competitions based on self identified gender. I do believe that some people are assigned a gender at birth which is not psychologically their accurate gender. I think acceptance of their transition at whatever point in life they undertake it is the right thing to do. And I struggle with when it is appropriate for them to start participating in gender segregated sports based on their now accepted gender. Should it be from day 1 of a public announcement? Should a level of medical treatment being completed be a standard applied? I am not sure.

[Tiny]

Apr 12, 2022 12:30:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 what does anyone's freedom of whatever have to do with the reality of someone else?

We are talking of transgender people competing in sport.

It may put the other competitors at a disadvantage.

A general reply to this:

But competitors are often already at a disadvantage:

Money (wealthy kids have access to better equipment, better coaches, more support)

Healthcare (a wealhty kid athlete probably has access to better medical care - to fix a minor injury (or even a major one) AND probably has access to better physical therapy and after care than a kid from a not rich family).

Time (wealthy kids may have more time to dedicate to their sport - and a family and school that supports them in this. )

[Tiny]

Isn't the whole 'non binary' thing like "divorce" use to be?

you know, back in the day - if someone got divorced they were seen as a pariah and got dropped from social circles and what not. there was pearl clutching and whispers and the divorced person got ostracized and maybe lost some of their basic human rights?

And then the laws and society changed to accomodate divorced people.   And the pearl clutching and whispers stopped.   And so did the ostracization.     And divorced people have the same basic human rights as everyone else.   

At some point in the future will gender not matter in most social situations? Because there will be new social "scripts" for it? Like there is for dealing with a person's marital status?

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 11:05:05 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Isn't the whole 'non binary' thing like "divorce" use to be?

you know, back in the day - if someone got divorced they were seen as a pariah and got dropped from social circles and what not. there was pearl clutching and whispers and the divorced person got ostracized and maybe lost some of their basic human rights?

And then the laws and society changed to accomodate divorced people.   And the pearl clutching and whispers stopped.   And so did the ostracization.     And divorced people have the same basic human rights as everyone else.   

At some point in the future will gender not matter in most social situations? Because there will be new social "scripts" for it? Like there is for dealing with a person's marital status?

It seems that this treatment of divorce was a process that played out over time. I do think we will deal with trans and non-binary gender more smoothly over time if we do good work now help people have a greater understanding. Preaching at them I don't see as productive.

[Spellbound454]

Apr 13, 2022 8:59:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 12, 2022 23:43:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Yeah, I guess it's ok to ask some people to live a life of lies and to never really feel like they fit in so that the rest of the people aren't made uncomfortable.   Seems like a totally reasonable request from the majority of people.      NOT!!!        
 
I'm sure everyone puts on their mask every morning and blends in and tries to get by no matter how they feel inside.  Put on a happy face!   And fake it to you make it (even when you KNOW you will NEVER make it).  How bad is your daily Fake it till you Make experience?     I gotta wonder how hard it is to go thru life saying/agreeing with/doing  stuff you don't really believe or agree with or have never experienced, or even like doing --  I'm guessing it's kind of lonely and it might make you feel like you are broken.  Sure sucks to watch everyone else navigating everyday life without having to "keep up appearances".   


I'm guessing that's what's turning our culture on it's head?   The idea some people would like to be able to maintain their personal integrity and not have to go thru every life living a lie?  And for everyone else to extend them some basic human rights and courtesy to them? 

Maybe I'm off base.   


(and where do you live -where there is no societal or cultural pressure to conform to the acceptable "norms"    Cause it's freaking EVERYWHERE.     I'm guessing you are wearing the clothes and shoes you chose this morning based on other people's opinions.... as in what made you look good/feel good (because of how other people would perceive you)  or would allow you to fit in with every one else....      ) 

At question at the start of the thread is the right to enter gender segregated sport competitions based on self identified gender. I do believe that some people are assigned a gender at birth which is not psychologically their accurate gender. I think acceptance of their transition at whatever point in life they undertake it is the right thing to do. And I struggle with when it is appropriate for them to start participating in gender segregated sports based on their now accepted gender. Should it be from day 1 of a public announcement? Should a level of medical treatment being completed be a standard applied? I am not sure.

Yes.... but the other side of the argument is that many people are unhappy after transitioning.

Gender dysphoria, like any dysphoria, can be linked to a neurosis

and for many a change is not the magic solution it purported to be.

They were unhappy before.... and unless the underlying symptoms are treated, they will be unhappy afterwards.

Its a big thing to regret when you have have years of hormone blockers and realignment surgery.

[Spellbound454]

Apr 13, 2022 10:39:50 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 12, 2022 12:30:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

We are talking of transgender people competing in sport.

It may put the other competitors at a disadvantage.

A general reply to this:

But competitors are often already at a disadvantage:

Money (wealthy kids have access to better equipment, better coaches, more support)

Healthcare (a wealhty kid athlete probably has access to better medical care - to fix a minor injury (or even a major one) AND probably has access to better physical therapy and after care than a kid from a not rich family).

Time (wealthy kids may have more time to dedicate to their sport - and a family and school that supports them in this. )

Slightly different to your opponent being physiologically a different sex.

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 11:25:39 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 13, 2022 8:59:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

At question at the start of the thread is the right to enter gender segregated sport competitions based on self identified gender. I do believe that some people are assigned a gender at birth which is not psychologically their accurate gender. I think acceptance of their transition at whatever point in life they undertake it is the right thing to do. And I struggle with when it is appropriate for them to start participating in gender segregated sports based on their now accepted gender. Should it be from day 1 of a public announcement? Should a level of medical treatment being completed be a standard applied? I am not sure.

Yes.... but the other side of the argument is that many people are unhappy after transitioning.

Gender dysphoria, like any dysphoria, can be linked to a neurosis

and for many a change is not the magic solution it purported to be.

They were unhappy before.... and unless the underlying symptoms are treated, they will be unhappy afterwards.

Its a big thing to regret when you have have years of hormone blockers and realignment surgery.

I can see where if ..., then it would be a major regret. Not sure that the way to finish that statement is "therefore others should legally be able to stop them from making what might end up being a regret".

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 10:39:50 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 12, 2022 12:30:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

We are talking of transgender people competing in sport.

It may put the other competitors at a disadvantage.

A general reply to this:

But competitors are often already at a disadvantage:

Money (wealthy kids have access to better equipment, better coaches, more support)

Healthcare (a wealhty kid athlete probably has access to better medical care - to fix a minor injury (or even a major one) AND probably has access to better physical therapy and after care than a kid from a not rich family).

Time (wealthy kids may have more time to dedicate to their sport - and a family and school that supports them in this. )

There are efforts by society to decrease such advantages.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 13, 2022 11:31:23 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 13, 2022 10:39:50 GMT -5 Tiny said:

A general reply to this:

But competitors are often already at a disadvantage:

Money (wealthy kids have access to better equipment, better coaches, more support)

Healthcare (a wealhty kid athlete probably has access to better medical care - to fix a minor injury (or even a major one) AND probably has access to better physical therapy and after care than a kid from a not rich family).

Time (wealthy kids may have more time to dedicate to their sport - and a family and school that supports them in this. )

Slightly different to your opponent being physiologically a different sex.

There are wide ranges of hormones in same sex people. Those who have higher levels of testosterone, even if we define them as women, still have an advantage. It was the isue behind the Caster Semmenya controversy. She identified as a women, and competed against them her entire life. Are we going to do chromosome analysis and testosterone levels to ensure all competitors are equal?

[Spellbound454]

and where do we draw the line........

The NZ weight lifter only transitioned in recent years..... in her 30s

She went through puberty..... and the muscles she has built up have come about through years and years of intensive weight training and competitions, with high levels of testosterone, as a man

What about the female competitors who have fought long and hard to get to the top of their sport....... and they lose out to someone with an unfair advantage?

[pulmonarymd]

Life is not fair. Some women have higher testosterone levels than men do. Genetics dictate that. This is not an easy question to answer, but to act like we all start from the same place is wrong. People have different talents and abilities. And as pointer out this swimmer was ranked #36. So some women are able to compete with them.

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 12:34:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Life is not fair. Some women have higher testosterone levels than men do. Genetics dictate that. This is not an easy question to answer, but to act like we all start from the same place is wrong. People have different talents and abilities. And as pointer out this swimmer was ranked #36. So some women are able to compete with them.

Thomas was ranked #36. What if the next woman with a similar history is ranked top 10, top 5, 1? I see individual ranking as a problematical argument.

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 11:05:05 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Isn't the whole 'non binary' thing like "divorce" use to be?

you know, back in the day - if someone got divorced they were seen as a pariah and got dropped from social circles and what not. there was pearl clutching and whispers and the divorced person got ostracized and maybe lost some of their basic human rights?

And then the laws and society changed to accomodate divorced people.   And the pearl clutching and whispers stopped.   And so did the ostracization.     And divorced people have the same basic human rights as everyone else.   

At some point in the future will gender not matter in most social situations? Because there will be new social "scripts" for it? Like there is for dealing with a person's marital status?

I think another thing to look at is same sex marriage. Two consenting adults should always have been allowed to marry but our society had to go through the process of civil unions to get us to the point we are at today. Was it fair to couples who had to live through the process. No, but it was necessary.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 13, 2022 14:22:22 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 13, 2022 12:34:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Life is not fair. Some women have higher testosterone levels than men do. Genetics dictate that. This is not an easy question to answer, but to act like we all start from the same place is wrong. People have different talents and abilities. And as pointer out this swimmer was ranked #36. So some women are able to compete with them.

Thomas was ranked #36. What if the next woman with a similar history is ranked top 10, top 5, 1? I see individual ranking as a problematical argument.

I do not know what the right answer is here. My only point is that she is not dominating every race.

Mikaela schiffrin was winning races by 10 seconds as a junior skier. Some people are just naturally better than others. We need to try to level the playing field in these instances of trans athletes to minimize the advantage

[tallguy]

Apr 13, 2022 8:59:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 12, 2022 23:43:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Yeah, I guess it's ok to ask some people to live a life of lies and to never really feel like they fit in so that the rest of the people aren't made uncomfortable.   Seems like a totally reasonable request from the majority of people.      NOT!!!        
 
I'm sure everyone puts on their mask every morning and blends in and tries to get by no matter how they feel inside.  Put on a happy face!   And fake it to you make it (even when you KNOW you will NEVER make it).  How bad is your daily Fake it till you Make experience?     I gotta wonder how hard it is to go thru life saying/agreeing with/doing  stuff you don't really believe or agree with or have never experienced, or even like doing --  I'm guessing it's kind of lonely and it might make you feel like you are broken.  Sure sucks to watch everyone else navigating everyday life without having to "keep up appearances".   


I'm guessing that's what's turning our culture on it's head?   The idea some people would like to be able to maintain their personal integrity and not have to go thru every life living a lie?  And for everyone else to extend them some basic human rights and courtesy to them? 

Maybe I'm off base.   


(and where do you live -where there is no societal or cultural pressure to conform to the acceptable "norms"    Cause it's freaking EVERYWHERE.     I'm guessing you are wearing the clothes and shoes you chose this morning based on other people's opinions.... as in what made you look good/feel good (because of how other people would perceive you)  or would allow you to fit in with every one else....      ) 

At question at the start of the thread is the right to enter gender segregated sport competitions based on self identified gender. I do believe that some people are assigned a gender at birth which is not psychologically their accurate gender. I think acceptance of their transition at whatever point in life they undertake it is the right thing to do. And I struggle with when it is appropriate for them to start participating in gender segregated sports based on their now accepted gender. Should it be from day 1 of a public announcement? Should a level of medical treatment being completed be a standard applied? I am not sure.

Unfortunately, there are only a few sports where men and women can be legitimately expected to compete on an equal basis.  Archery, shooting, and equestrian are the first three that come to mind.  I would be surprised if there were many others where size, speed, or stamina do not give men an advantage.  Clearly, "from Day 1..." cannot be the determinant.  Even a second- or third-tier male athlete would dominate a field of female competitors.  I don't know how long it would take for hormone therapy to overcome the inherent advantage that male athletes possess, but it would seem finding that answer and then requiring at least that period should be a minimum. 

Sex-verification testing of athletes in its various iterations (physical examinations, chromosome-testing, hormone- or testosterone-testing) goes back longer than most of us have been alive.  While it has evolved some over time, it still is not something that can perhaps ever be fair to everyone at the same time.  And given that there are at least sometimes tremendous rewards for winning, and that people will naturally seek to exploit rules for their own advantage even while they technically comply with those rules, thinking that there will ever be an easy solution to this is at best naive.  

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 20:55:06 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 13, 2022 8:59:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

At question at the start of the thread is the right to enter gender segregated sport competitions based on self identified gender. I do believe that some people are assigned a gender at birth which is not psychologically their accurate gender. I think acceptance of their transition at whatever point in life they undertake it is the right thing to do. And I struggle with when it is appropriate for them to start participating in gender segregated sports based on their now accepted gender. Should it be from day 1 of a public announcement? Should a level of medical treatment being completed be a standard applied? I am not sure.

Unfortunately, there are only a few sports where men and women can be legitimately expected to compete on an equal basis.  Archery, shooting, and equestrian are the first three that come to mind.  I would be surprised if there were many others where size, speed, or stamina do not give men an advantage.  Clearly, "from Day 1..." cannot be the determinant.  Even a second- or third-tier male athlete would dominate a field of female competitors.  I don't know how long it would take for hormone therapy to overcome the inherent advantage that male athletes possess, but it would seem finding that answer and then requiring at least that period should be a minimum. 

Sex-verification testing of athletes in its various iterations (physical examinations, chromosome-testing, hormone- or testosterone-testing) goes back longer than most of us have been alive.  While it has evolved some over time, it still is not something that can perhaps ever be fair to everyone at the same time.  And given that there are at least sometimes tremendous rewards for winning, and that people will naturally seek to exploit rules for their own advantage even while they technically comply with those rules, thinking that there will ever be an easy solution to this is at best naive.  

I am thinking more of a difficult compromise that at best satisfices a large number is what we can hope to end up with.

[thyme4change]

Apr 11, 2022 19:25:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:57:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

This is one person out of how many athletes? Do we have to change the whole system to accommodate that one girl who did not get to swim or got 4th instead of 3rd?

I know there are other trans athletes - but they don't seem to be successful enough for people to pay much mind to them.

It is playing out in high schools across the country. And a national collegiate championship is nothing compared to a spot on a high school varsity team roster.

Is it being played out in high schools? I'd be surprised if this is happening even at 50 high schools in the entire country.

[Opti]

Apr 13, 2022 23:39:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2022 19:25:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

It is playing out in high schools across the country. And a national collegiate championship is nothing compared to a spot on a high school varsity team roster.

Is it being played out in high schools? I'd be surprised if this is happening even at 50 high schools in the entire country.

I think its more than 50 high schools but we don't hear about it unless lawsuits and other things happen. As it turns out I do not remember anything about a lawsuit in CT nor a FTM transgender winning at wrestling.


www.espn.com/high-school/story/_/id/27015115/complaint-targets-transgender-hs-track-athletes

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports

In 2017, Mack Beggs, a teenager from Texas, was required to wrestle against girls throughout the season of his transition from female to male up through the state championship, despite wanting to wrestle against boys. This was due to state sport regulations requiring athletes to compete alongside athletes of their assigned sex. Some opponents say the testosterone prescribed as part of his transition gives him an unfair advantage and made it unsafe for the other wrestlers. (He finished the regular season at 52–0 and won the state championship.)[36]

[billisonboard]

Apr 13, 2022 23:39:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2022 19:25:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

It is playing out in high schools across the country. And a national collegiate championship is nothing compared to a spot on a high school varsity team roster.

Is it being played out in high schools? I'd be surprised if this is happening even at 50 high schools in the entire country.

How high school sports became the latest battleground over transgender rights

and

As of late November 2021, 37 states have introduced bills imposing restrictions on participation in school sports based on a student’s biological sex. States Restricting How Transgender Students Play Sports

[Opti]

Apr 14, 2022 8:24:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 13, 2022 23:39:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Is it being played out in high schools? I'd be surprised if this is happening even at 50 high schools in the entire country.

How high school sports became the latest battleground over transgender rights

and

As of late November 2021, 37 states have introduced bills imposing restrictions on participation in school sports based on a student’s biological sex. States Restricting How Transgender Students Play Sports

From your first link -

The only bill to pass was in Idaho. That law bars transgender athletes from participating in high school and college sports. It also authorizes “sex testing” of athletes through genital exams and genetic and hormone testing.

That seems way out of line to me. Shouldn't genetic testing pick up XXY etc. without needing to invade a person's privacy? Especially at the high school level. Feels like OKing future sex abuse.