What are your thoughts on Lia Thomas MTF trans swimmer?

[Opti]

I had avoided looking into this, but now that I discovered she is 6'4" it has changed my thinking. Average height of a man is around 5'9" something and roughly that height plus a fraction puts a woman in the top 1% of all women in height.

Some advantages will not change simply by taking female hormones and suppressing male ones. Should there be another category then when giving trophies or recording records?


www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

In her final meet, Thomas finaled in three events at the NCAA Championships, highlighted by a victory in the 500 freestyle. She also finished fifth in the 200 freestyle and was eighth in the 100 freestyle. Although she didn’t contest the event at the NCAA Champs, Thomas had one of the country’s top times in the 1650 freestyle. Here’s a look at her performances throughout the season, including their comparative status to her times as a member of Penn’s men’s squad.



In the 500 freestyle, Thomas’ time of 4:33.24 from her NCAA-title swim handed her the fastest time in the nation by more than a second over Arizona State’s Emma Nordin (4:34.87). Additionally, Thomas’ difference from her personal best with the Penn men’s program was just 6%, as opposed to the typical 10% to 11% difference generally seen between men and women.


Thomas’ best time in the 200 freestyle ended up being her 1:41.93 mark from the Zippy Invitational in December. That effort ultimately ended up 3.76% slower than her best time before her transition. Again, that time was between 7% and 8% faster than the typical separation between men and women.

[Opti]

Other links-


www.bostonherald.com/2022/03/08/wendy-murphy-lia-thomas-swimming-debate-lacks-one-thing-common-sense/

Lia is nearly 6-feet, 4-inches tall and is stronger than all of her female teammates. Her chest span is comparatively enormous. Although Lia has been taking testosterone blockers and complying with NCAA rules that allow Lia to compete against women, most agree that Lia has significant physical advantages over her competition.


news.yahoo.com/former-olympians-swimmers-send-letter-164450378.html


www.bing.com/search?q=lia+thomas+interview&form=ANNTH1&refig=c77204b712d245dbafe4d8b4c63ad9e6&ntref=1

[Tiny]

This is a tough one.

1st.   I don't think she is the measure that other trans athletes should be measured against.
2nd.  I don't know what is fair treatment in this situation.   I think this kind of a situation will be few and far between. 

But, isn't this potentially caused by NOT allowing children who KNOW they are different to live as the gender they KNOW they are before they are 18?? 

I don't know Lia Thomas' life history... so perhaps I am off base. 

[Opti]

Apr 11, 2022 11:05:49 GMT -5 Tiny said:

This is a tough one.

1st.   I don't think she is the measure that other trans athletes should be measured against.
2nd.  I don't know what is fair treatment in this situation.   I think this kind of a situation will be few and far between. 

But, isn't this potentially caused by NOT allowing children who KNOW they are different to live as the gender they KNOW they are before they are 18?? 

I don't know Lia Thomas' life history... so perhaps I am off base. 

Yes, I agree that this can be one of the results of forcing kids to wait until they are 18 or older.

[thyme4change]

I have been confused by this story. I know she won, but did she set an all time record or just the fastest this year?

And I know she competed in multiple events, but did she only win one of them?

Does she dominate the sport? How do we define "dominate"?

[billisonboard]

I agree it is a tough one. In a Billtopia, such individuals would make the decision that they have a questionable advantage and not enter into competitions in the first place. At this point in time, I think it is selfish of them to create the controversy which distracts from more serious issues faced by the majority of the trans population. I think we need to greatly increase acceptance of trans in general and then tackle these tougher issues.

AND I am open to being educated as to why I am wrong. 🙂

[Opti]

Apr 11, 2022 11:37:26 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have been confused by this story. I know she won, but did she set an all time record or just the fastest this year?

And I know she competed in multiple events, but did she only win one of them?

Does she dominate the sport? How do we define "dominate"?

Lia won one of the three races she competed in and did not break a record.

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/03/20/lia-thomas-ncaa-swimming-championships-questions/

[chiver78]

I'm not sure I understand the issue here. is it that she's competing at all, or that because she's so tall, that she shouldn't be allowed to compete? I mean, Dutch women are a lot taller (on average) than Asian women. should they not be allowed to compete? 

curious how the group felt about Caster Semenya being forced to alter her body chemistry in order to compete in some events (that she was by far the favorite for...) 

[happyhoix]

I have mixed feelings on this too. When she competed as a man, she was rated around 400 in the country around male swimmers. Now that she competes as a woman, she’s jumped to the top, as success in this sport is greatly defined by “wingspan” of the swimmer.

I’m not sure what the fair thing would be. Maybe divide the swimming classes by size, like we do with boxers, so participants are more equal in height and wingspan? Would it be more fair to not allow participants who have transitioned to participate in sports where size matters, making them wait until their sports career is over until they transition?

I want to be inclusive with the trans kids, but fair to the women. Too bad all sports can’t be like dressage, where men and women compete together.

[thyme4change]

Apr 11, 2022 13:11:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I have mixed feelings on this too. When she competed as a man, she was rated around 400 in the country around male swimmers. Now that she competes as a woman, she’s jumped to the top, as success in this sport is greatly defined by “wingspan” of the swimmer.

I’m not sure what the fair thing would be. Maybe divide the swimming classes by size, like we do with boxers, so participants are more equal in height and wingspan? Would it be more fair to not allow participants who have transitioned to participate in sports where size matters, making them wait until their sports career is over until they transition?

I want to be inclusive with the trans kids, but fair to the women. Too bad all sports can’t be like dressage, where men and women compete together.

She won 1 of 3 races she was in. Having to compete against Michael Phelps was probably way more frustrating for his peers. Someone has to win. If her height was a ridiculously clear advantage, she should have won all 3.

ETA: 6'4" is tall for a man too. I bet when she was swimming in men's races, men shorter than her beat her.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2022 14:06:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2022 13:11:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I have mixed feelings on this too. When she competed as a man, she was rated around 400 in the country around male swimmers. Now that she competes as a woman, she’s jumped to the top, as success in this sport is greatly defined by “wingspan” of the swimmer.

I’m not sure what the fair thing would be. Maybe divide the swimming classes by size, like we do with boxers, so participants are more equal in height and wingspan? Would it be more fair to not allow participants who have transitioned to participate in sports where size matters, making them wait until their sports career is over until they transition?

I want to be inclusive with the trans kids, but fair to the women. Too bad all sports can’t be like dressage, where men and women compete together.

She won 1 of 3 races she was in. Having to compete against Michael Phelps was probably way more frustrating for his peers. Someone has to win. If her height was a ridiculously clear advantage, she should have won all 3.

ETA: 6'4" is tall for a man too. I bet when she was swimming in men's races, men shorter than her beat her.

Is winning the only criteria that should be used? Someone else did not have the opportunity to swim in the Championships because she did. Finishing eighth is different than having a medal but it is still a story you can tell the grandkids.

[andi9899]

My cousin is a cis female and over 6 feet tall. So what?

[thyme4change]

Apr 11, 2022 14:29:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 11, 2022 14:06:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

She won 1 of 3 races she was in. Having to compete against Michael Phelps was probably way more frustrating for his peers. Someone has to win. If her height was a ridiculously clear advantage, she should have won all 3.

ETA: 6'4" is tall for a man too. I bet when she was swimming in men's races, men shorter than her beat her.

Is winning the only criteria that should be used? Someone else did not have the opportunity to swim in the Championships because she did. Finishing eighth is different than having a medal but it is still a story you can tell the grandkids.

What makes one person more worthy of an experience vs another?

[happyhoix]

Apr 11, 2022 14:06:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2022 13:11:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I have mixed feelings on this too. When she competed as a man, she was rated around 400 in the country around male swimmers. Now that she competes as a woman, she’s jumped to the top, as success in this sport is greatly defined by “wingspan” of the swimmer.

I’m not sure what the fair thing would be. Maybe divide the swimming classes by size, like we do with boxers, so participants are more equal in height and wingspan? Would it be more fair to not allow participants who have transitioned to participate in sports where size matters, making them wait until their sports career is over until they transition?

I want to be inclusive with the trans kids, but fair to the women. Too bad all sports can’t be like dressage, where men and women compete together.

She won 1 of 3 races she was in. Having to compete against Michael Phelps was probably way more frustrating for his peers. Someone has to win. If her height was a ridiculously clear advantage, she should have won all 3.

ETA: 6'4" is tall for a man too. I bet when she was swimming in men's races, men shorter than her beat her.

She was rated somewhere in the top 400 male swimmers in the country when she was male. As a female, she’s ranked 36 in the country. Is it more likely she suddenly improved as a swimmer, jumping into the top tier by sheer talent, or more likely that her longer arm length and added height give her advantages over the female swimmers?  

[busymom]

My thoughts on this have nothing to do with height, but with arm strength.  Men have better arm strength than women, just as women have better muscle power in the stomach area (think giving birth to a baby).  So, this athlete may have an unfair advantage over those who were born female.  Just my thoughts on how it's going to be difficult to decide what is "fair".  

[pulmonarymd]

There is no truly fair solution for everyone until we can use puberty blockers on these athletes. We are nowhere near there as a society. Even so, she was only ranked 36, and only won 1 of 3 races. So there are exceptional women athletes who can beat her. We are spending a lot of energy on this issue when we should be spending it on acceptance of these individuals

[dondub]

Perhaps we need male, female, and trans racing categories.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2022 17:25:18 GMT -5 dondub said:

Perhaps we need male, female, and trans racing categories.

Male, female, trans women and trans men racing categories.

[pulmonarymd]

That may work in individual sorts. There won’t be enough trans athletes for a team sport league. Don’t forget the additional expense involved. Don’t see us paying morefor that

[thyme4change]

This is one person out of how many athletes? Do we have to change the whole system to accommodate that one girl who did not get to swim or got 4th instead of 3rd?

I know there are other trans athletes - but they don't seem to be successful enough for people to pay much mind to them.

[Tiny]

Apr 11, 2022 17:29:12 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:25:18 GMT -5 dondub said:

Perhaps we need male, female, and trans racing categories.

Male, female, trans women and trans men racing categories.

IDK.  Doesn't this assume that a trans women is very masculine body build and that a trans man is very a feminine body build?   For the most part the non-cis people I have encountered (who indicated they were non-cis)  were pretty much "everyday" typical people looking and they fit the typical body requirements for the gender they were presenting to the world.    Even the more androgynous looking people.    (I live in a very densely populated urban area.  There are all sorts of people here... ) 

I think I read somewhere that different sports are geared towards different body types -  if you have the right body type you will most likely do better at a sport geared to that body type.     The article I read was about women's rowing teams - as in how to put together the best team of rowers for your "boat".   Turns out that each position in the boat could be maximized by getting the "right" type of rower into that position.     The article extrapolated that this would apply to other sports.    And I think we are seeing that... swimmers have a body type, runners have a body type, weight lifters have a body type.  If you want to compete and succeed at a particular sport - you need to make sure your body fits the requirements for optimizing your performance for that sport.  Because all the practice and "trying hard" and "focus" isn't going to be enough to get you to the top of that sport if you don't have the optimal body for that sport.   IF that's why you are competing - if you are doing it for fun... then it doesn't really matter - you will become the best competitor that you can become.    Aren't most kids and adults playing sports for more or less FUN?  they aren't ever going to get to a state championship much less the olympics.    How does that play into the idea of "trans" only competitions??  
 

With an estimated .6% of the population being believed to be transgendered. And how elite some most of the higher levels of sports competition is --  I'm thinking sports aren't going to be overrun by trans people 'taking away' a position on a team or in a competition that should rightfully go to cis person.    Would there even be enough trans gendered people in an area to have a team?   or to have others to compete against? 

I think that's why this is such a tough question - it's more about Lia Thomas situation  than about transgendered athletes in general.       

ADDED in case it's not clear:  I'm guessing most of the cis women swimming in competitions with Lia Thomas have an optimized body type for "swimming" as is Lea Thomas' body.  I'm not sure how much of an advantage the now transitioned Lia has over the cis women swimmers.    

(There are more left handed people than transgendered people....  keep that in mind.      How hard would it be to put together a team of left handed male swimmers at a typical HS or college/university  ) 

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2022 17:29:12 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:25:18 GMT -5 dondub said:

Perhaps we need male, female, and trans racing categories.

Male, female, trans women and trans men racing categories.

There are about a dozen broad categories of gender, which include: link

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2022 15:39:18 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Apr 11, 2022 14:29:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Is winning the only criteria that should be used? Someone else did not have the opportunity to swim in the Championships because she did. Finishing eighth is different than having a medal but it is still a story you can tell the grandkids.

What makes one person more worthy of an experience vs another?

Great question. I can think of different situations with different answers. There are some where possession of wealth is the deciding factor. Who a person is related to is key sometimes. Meeting social norms for physical attractiveness. Ability to do well on written tests.

[happyhoix]

Apr 11, 2022 17:57:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

This is one person out of how many athletes? Do we have to change the whole system to accommodate that one girl who did not get to swim or got 4th instead of 3rd?

I know there are other trans athletes - but they don't seem to be successful enough for people to pay much mind to them.

I think it’s the sport. I saw an interview with a female who transitioned to male and now is a platform diver. I don’t know a lot about that sport, but I’m guessing agility and grace are big factors - things both sexes can have - and extra height or muscle mass wouldn’t make that much difference. Same for fencing or archery. But sports where arm strength or speed give you an advantage- make it less fair.

Still it is important to remember trans people are less than 1 % of the total population, so other than an occasional situation like this swimming, does that make it worth a lot if hand wringing? No. Do we need a bunch of new laws? No - why don’t we focus on doping or n sports, that seems like a much bigger issue.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2022 17:57:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

This is one person out of how many athletes? Do we have to change the whole system to accommodate that one girl who did not get to swim or got 4th instead of 3rd?

I know there are other trans athletes - but they don't seem to be successful enough for people to pay much mind to them.

It is playing out in high schools across the country. And a national collegiate championship is nothing compared to a spot on a high school varsity team roster.

[chiver78]

Apr 11, 2022 19:22:26 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:57:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

This is one person out of how many athletes? Do we have to change the whole system to accommodate that one girl who did not get to swim or got 4th instead of 3rd?

I know there are other trans athletes - but they don't seem to be successful enough for people to pay much mind to them.

I think it’s the sport. I saw an interview with a female who transitioned to male and now is a platform diver. I don’t know a lot about that sport, but I’m guessing agility and grace are big factors - things both sexes can have - and extra height or muscle mass wouldn’t make that much difference. Same for fencing or archery. But sports where arm strength or speed give you an advantage- make it less fair.

Still it is important to remember trans people are less than 1 % of the total population, so other than an occasional situation like this swimming, does that make it worth a lot if hand wringing? No. Do we need a bunch of new laws? No - why don’t we focus on doping or n sports, that seems like a much bigger issue.

I have a hard time with this. I play recreational women's ice hockey. I have played with trans teammates at various stages of transition, in both directions. I recognize that recreational is very different from competitive, at levels far lower than NCAA and the Olympics, but we also still have guidelines...and far less stress about it. I took a (cherrypicked) slapshot off the throat from a MTF defenseman teammate that took a shot off the point. I was screening the goalie as a winger. should I sue the league? 🤷‍♀️

I also want to ask, for those who feel their should be tiers/siding scale/whatever isn't just "go compete" if you've ever heard the name Shawn Stinson. please look him up. I'll reserve further comment.

ETA: I stopped reading after the first paragraph before I started responding. IM(not so)HO, this is another dog whistle for the redneck white trash that votes Republican against their own best interests. 🤷‍♀️

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2022 18:02:16 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 11, 2022 17:29:12 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Male, female, trans women and trans men racing categories.

IDK.  Doesn't this assume that a trans women is very masculine body build and that a trans man is very a feminine body build?   For the most part the non-cis people I have encountered (who indicated they were non-cis)  were pretty much "everyday" typical people looking and they fit the typical body requirements for the gender they were presenting to the world.    Even the more androgynous looking people.    (I live in a very densely populated urban area.  There are all sorts of people here... ) 

I think I read somewhere that different sports are geared towards different body types -  if you have the right body type you will most likely do better at a sport geared to that body type.     The article I read was about women's rowing teams - as in how to put together the best team of rowers for your "boat".   Turns out that each position in the boat could be maximized by getting the "right" type of rower into that position.     The article extrapolated that this would apply to other sports.    And I think we are seeing that... swimmers have a body type, runners have a body type, weight lifters have a body type.  If you want to compete and succeed at a particular sport - you need to make sure your body fits the requirements for optimizing your performance for that sport.  Because all the practice and "trying hard" and "focus" isn't going to be enough to get you to the top of that sport if you don't have the optimal body for that sport.   IF that's why you are competing - if you are doing it for fun... then it doesn't really matter - you will become the best competitor that you can become.    Aren't most kids and adults playing sports for more or less FUN?  they aren't ever going to get to a state championship much less the olympics.    How does that play into the idea of "trans" only competitions??  
 

With an estimated .6% of the population being believed to be transgendered. And how elite some most of the higher levels of sports competition is --  I'm thinking sports aren't going to be overrun by trans people 'taking away' a position on a team or in a competition that should rightfully go to cis person.    Would there even be enough trans gendered people in an area to have a team?   or to have others to compete against? 

I think that's why this is such a tough question - it's more about Lia Thomas situation  than about transgendered athletes in general.       

ADDED in case it's not clear:  I'm guessing most of the cis women swimming in competitions with Lia Thomas have an optimized body type for "swimming" as is Lea Thomas' body.  I'm not sure how much of an advantage the now transitioned Lia has over the cis women swimmers.    

(There are more left handed people than transgendered people....  keep that in mind.      How hard would it be to put together a team of left handed male swimmers at a typical HS or college/university  ) 

I've got no dog or opinion in this race. I was only 'correcting Dondub's post where he had all trans people in one category which would not be fair to the trans athletes.

[Spellbound454]

 Yes, I agree that this can be one of the results of forcing kids to wait until they are 18 or older.

I disagree with this.

When this was all the rage a couple of years ago we had 12 youngsters who declared themselves transgender.... and we went to the trouble of arranging separate changing rooms and calling them different names always referring them to "they" instead of "he and she"

Two years on not one of them still thinks they are transgender...... and I think that's pretty much the pattern...... ie its quite rare.

Kids may simply be having gay feelings..... and that's perfectly normal and a normal part of our society if they grow up to be gay.

Leave them alone, kids have enough to contend with growing up through puberty with hormone surges. They don't need screwing up through  absorbing some adult concept before they are fully grown.


As for transgender people competing in athletics....... No

They may be psychologically (ie female) .... and its fine to feel that way. I have no prejudice.

but their bodies, muscle patterns, strength etc.... are their original gender and every cell they have will have original gender DNA.

Thats the fact.........  they cannot compete in a fair competition with people of their chosen gender.

I appreciate its difficult for those concerned, and its an emotive subject but there is a much larger body of people who spend their whole lives training to compete and be successful in their own categories
and we have to be fair to them.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2022 20:08:28 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 11, 2022 19:22:26 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it’s the sport. I saw an interview with a female who transitioned to male and now is a platform diver. I don’t know a lot about that sport, but I’m guessing agility and grace are big factors - things both sexes can have - and extra height or muscle mass wouldn’t make that much difference. Same for fencing or archery. But sports where arm strength or speed give you an advantage- make it less fair.

Still it is important to remember trans people are less than 1 % of the total population, so other than an occasional situation like this swimming, does that make it worth a lot if hand wringing? No. Do we need a bunch of new laws? No - why don’t we focus on doping or n sports, that seems like a much bigger issue.

I have a hard time with this. I play recreational women's ice hockey. I have played with trans teammates at various stages of transition, in both directions. I recognize that recreational is very different from competitive, at levels far lower than NCAA and the Olympics, but we also still have guidelines...and far less stress about it. I took a (cherrypicked) slapshot off the throat from a MTF defenseman teammate that took a shot off the point. I was screening the goalie as a winger. should I sue the league? 🤷‍♀️

I also want to ask, for those who feel their should be tiers/siding scale/whatever isn't just "go compete" if you've ever heard the name Shawn Stinson. please look him up. I'll reserve further comment.

ETA: I stopped reading after the first paragraph before I started responding. IM(not so)HO, this is another dog whistle for the redneck white trash that votes Republican against their own best interests. 🤷‍♀️

I agree that this is being used as a "dog whistle" but I also know that at least one person on the planet (me) has honest concerns on how to address this issue as we move to a open non-binary world.

[Spellbound454]

 as we move to a open non-binary world.

Why would we ever do that?

Surely, It doesn't effect the vast majority of people..... so we cater for the vast majority of people ........ and make special consideration for those who don't fit the parameters.

There has been males, females and non binary in existence as long as there has been humans.

We can't turn our culture on its head for a small percentage of people.

I don't agree with prejudice and think that people should be whatever they want.... and  I'll respect that, of course.

but societies are formed from the population and no-ones freedom of race, religion, belief or none ... trumps anyone elses.