Women in Male Dominated Fields

[daisylu]

Rant ahead.

I have mentioned before that I work in a field that has historically been a male dominated profession, although my department consists of only women - not by design, but because when positions opened no men applied (at least in the last 5 years). I had 2 situations that occurred today that rubbed me the wrong way.

First, I was having a conversation with 2 older men (60ish, I am 46) about 1 of them moving to a new office. That turned into 1 of them saying they need to come work for me, the other said we should switch positions as they need women in that department to "whip these guys into shape and keep them in line". It is something that I have heard over and over throughout my lifetime, but it really got to me today. Why is it a woman's job to "straighten" men out or keep them in line? Just sounds like a backward excuse for men not doing the right thing. As if them needing a babysitter is ok.

Second was a visit from a vendor, who brought us some calendars. He said he felt bad that all he had was car and hunting calendars. I did point out that he has been working with us for 3 years, time to bump it up with some nature scenes. 


These things rarely bothered me before and I let them slide, mostly because I lived with feeling like a second class citizen - this was just the norm. But if I continue to let things like this go, aren't I perpetuating the issue? I have been planning some things for things/changes so the new year has been on my mind a lot, which is probably the reason that these things set me off today. It is almost 2022 FFS, and yet it seems nothing has changed in the last 30 years (at least). A lot of men still think they can say or do anything to women and we just have to take it. Well, I am done taking it. They can call me a b**** all they want, but I know they aren't brave enough to say it to my face.

[Lizard Queen]

The comment about whipping men into shape might be correct in a way. What I've learned vin my research into DEI is that diverse groups are more on their toes and work harder.

The calendar, at least the guy recognized it. Next year, I suppose you'll know if it was sincere. (My DH would prefer nature scenes for a calendar over those, too.)

[finnime]

When you're swimming in a sea of privilege it's very very hard to recognize you're wet, much less that you're in the water. They won't get it until it is no longer automatically there for them from birth.

My DS27 grew up in a very diverse community, one of the most diverse in the country. That has genuinely helped him recognize privilege much more easily than most of his college and work friends.

[jerseygirl]

Dec 13, 2021 13:26:34 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Rant ahead.

I have mentioned before that I work in a field that has historically been a male dominated profession, although my department consists of only women - not by design, but because when positions opened no men applied (at least in the last 5 years). I had 2 situations that occurred today that rubbed me the wrong way.

First, I was having a conversation with 2 older men (60ish, I am 46) about 1 of them moving to a new office. That turned into 1 of them saying they need to come work for me, the other said we should switch positions as they need women in that department to "whip these guys into shape and keep them in line". It is something that I have heard over and over throughout my lifetime, but it really got to me today. Why is it a woman's job to "straighten" men out or keep them in line? Just sounds like a backward excuse for men not doing the right thing. As if them needing a babysitter is ok.

Second was a visit from a vendor, who brought us some calendars. He said he felt bad that all he had was car and hunting calendars. I did point out that he has been working with us for 3 years, time to bump it up with some nature scenes. 


These things rarely bothered me before and I let them slide, mostly because I lived with feeling like a second class citizen - this was just the norm. But if I continue to let things like this go, aren't I perpetuating the issue? I have been planning some things for things/changes so the new year has been on my mind a lot, which is probably the reason that these things set me off today. It is almost 2022 FFS, and yet it seems nothing has changed in the last 30 years (at least). A lot of men still think they can say or do anything to women and we just have to take it. Well, I am done taking it. They can call me a b**** all they want, but I know they aren't brave enough to say it to my face.

If you ‘switch positions’ would it be a pay raise or increased responsibility or more visibility? If so , tell Him yes!
Yes it’s wearing and tedious but keep up being vocal , be sure your upper management KNOWS that you’re responsible for a project, etc
don’t worry about what the ‘guys’ think. I found men are often yes men, want to get along even if this impedes the project
Show off !! Don’t hide!! Speak up!!

[Tiny]

Dec 13, 2021 13:26:34 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Rant ahead.

I have mentioned before that I work in a field that has historically been a male dominated profession, although my department consists of only women - not by design, but because when positions opened no men applied (at least in the last 5 years). I had 2 situations that occurred today that rubbed me the wrong way.

First, I was having a conversation with 2 older men (60ish, I am 46) about 1 of them moving to a new office. That turned into 1 of them saying they need to come work for me, the other said we should switch positions as they need women in that department to "whip these guys into shape and keep them in line". It is something that I have heard over and over throughout my lifetime, but it really got to me today. Why is it a woman's job to "straighten" men out or keep them in line? Just sounds like a backward excuse for men not doing the right thing. As if them needing a babysitter is ok.

Second was a visit from a vendor, who brought us some calendars. He said he felt bad that all he had was car and hunting calendars. I did point out that he has been working with us for 3 years, time to bump it up with some nature scenes. 


These things rarely bothered me before and I let them slide, mostly because I lived with feeling like a second class citizen - this was just the norm. But if I continue to let things like this go, aren't I perpetuating the issue? I have been planning some things for things/changes so the new year has been on my mind a lot, which is probably the reason that these things set me off today. It is almost 2022 FFS, and yet it seems nothing has changed in the last 30 years (at least). A lot of men still think they can say or do anything to women and we just have to take it. Well, I am done taking it. They can call me a b**** all they want, but I know they aren't brave enough to say it to my face.

I think more women should speak up.     I think women (and men) are still stuck in a "can't see the forest for the trees" in situations like these.      It's like they can't see it even when it happens over and over and over. 

Back in the 80's when the inequality between men and women in the workplace use to really get under my skin -    I probably would have replied to the "whip the guys into shape" with a comment about how "sure! let me get my whips and chains and other stuff - and have those "little mama's boys" crying for more! "   Or I'd say something about "what? Do I look like their mother?  Do I have to wipe their noses and their asses too?"   or  something about - "wow, I didn't know we hired children...  maybe we need an office day care for them?".         I'm pretty sure some variant of all three of those came out of my mouth over the years.    

OK, it's the 21st century and I'm pretty sure there are better ways to deal with the situation than my 80's "shock" value responses.       

I do think we all need to speak up more and point this stuff out - and maybe offer some alternative things to say in it's place.  I think many women and girls just take for granted or  accept that that's the way men talk or that's the way it is and that it's ok.   I'd like to think once someone points out to them the implied stuff packaged into that kind of talk and they think about it a little bit - they won't be so happy with it anymore.   

I'm guessing the coworker who suggested you would "whip the guys into shape"   would have said something different to you if you were male - that would have carried some of the (I hope) thought that you would be a good fit for the team and help enact positive change on the department (or help department reach it's goals or whatever). 
 

[azucena]

daisylu - I've heard similar comments when I was added to an all male account team.  It was understood that I would help keep track of and enforce deadlines.  Doesn't go to well when I have no authority.

I've also noticed lately that I can name a handful of men who are repeatedly late to calls, don't turn in paperwork, don't document things, etc.  And yet they skirt by and several managers both male and female chuckle when one of these items comes to light.  I don't see any women afforded the same leeway or at least not taking advantage of it like these guys do.

[TheOtherMe]

Long time feminist here.  I go back to the days of Gloria Steinman, Erica Jong, Betty Friedan, etc.  

I worked in accounting, which when I started was a male dominated field, at least in Iowa.  Transferred to Colorado and it was an entirely different world.  Nobody told me I couldn't be promoted because male CPAs don't like dealing with women.  In Denver, there were managers who were women.  That wouldn't have happened in Des Moines for years to come.

I used to have a card that said:

You have just insulted a feminist
Your **** will fall off

[daisylu]

Dec 13, 2021 14:40:05 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Dec 13, 2021 13:26:34 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Rant ahead.

I have mentioned before that I work in a field that has historically been a male dominated profession, although my department consists of only women - not by design, but because when positions opened no men applied (at least in the last 5 years). I had 2 situations that occurred today that rubbed me the wrong way.

First, I was having a conversation with 2 older men (60ish, I am 46) about 1 of them moving to a new office. That turned into 1 of them saying they need to come work for me, the other said we should switch positions as they need women in that department to "whip these guys into shape and keep them in line". It is something that I have heard over and over throughout my lifetime, but it really got to me today. Why is it a woman's job to "straighten" men out or keep them in line? Just sounds like a backward excuse for men not doing the right thing. As if them needing a babysitter is ok.

Second was a visit from a vendor, who brought us some calendars. He said he felt bad that all he had was car and hunting calendars. I did point out that he has been working with us for 3 years, time to bump it up with some nature scenes. 


These things rarely bothered me before and I let them slide, mostly because I lived with feeling like a second class citizen - this was just the norm. But if I continue to let things like this go, aren't I perpetuating the issue? I have been planning some things for things/changes so the new year has been on my mind a lot, which is probably the reason that these things set me off today. It is almost 2022 FFS, and yet it seems nothing has changed in the last 30 years (at least). A lot of men still think they can say or do anything to women and we just have to take it. Well, I am done taking it. They can call me a b**** all they want, but I know they aren't brave enough to say it to my face.

If you ‘switch positions’ would it be a pay raise or increased responsibility or more visibility? If so , tell Him yes!
Yes it’s wearing and tedious but keep up being vocal , be sure your upper management KNOWS that you’re responsible for a project, etc
don’t worry about what the ‘guys’ think. I found men are often yes men, want to get along even if this impedes the project
Show off !! Don’t hide!! Speak up!!

I will keep fighting, but a switch would be a decrease in pay for me. 🤣

[daisylu]

Dec 13, 2021 15:10:50 GMT -5 azucena said:

daisylu - I've heard similar comments when I was added to an all male account team.  It was understood that I would help keep track of and enforce deadlines.  Doesn't go to well when I have no authority.

I've also noticed lately that I can name a handful of men who are repeatedly late to calls, don't turn in paperwork, don't document things, etc.  And yet they skirt by and several managers both male and female chuckle when one of these items comes to light.  I don't see any women afforded the same leeway or at least not taking advantage of it like these guys do.

That is exactly what I am referencing. Until I started with my current employer, I was often put into that type of situation and is the reason why I finally left my last employer (in 2013). They had no issue putting me into a place where they needed to see results, but when an opportunity came to promote me into the leadership role they passed me over for a man who had no leadership skills or even the most basic skills and knowledge needed for the role - and expected me to train them. Not all that surprising, since the company had been known for that - they had done the same thing to another woman 20 years earlier. She set up the entire operating system and the department, but when they decided to make it an actual position they hired a man over her. She still stayed with the company in another position in the same department until that position was outsourced and she was offered a severance package. I left because I refused to be treated that way.

[swamp]

So many stories. So little time.

[jerseygirl]

I was in the Netherlands on a business meeting. I was only woman at a 12 person meeting. Dutch host went around table introducing everyone. Dr c, Dr x, Dr y etc except I was introduced as Mrs Jerseygirl! I corrected host - Dr Jerseygirl.
Later asked host why he used Mrs for me? Well you’re married! Yes but aren’t you? (He knew that I had PhD as did the others)

Used same title as the men next time

[TheOtherMe]

Dec 14, 2021 14:19:27 GMT -5 swamp said:

So many stories. So little time.

I could write a book.  Maybe two books if I included the sexual harassment.  

[movingforward]

Dec 14, 2021 15:52:19 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

I was in the Netherlands on a business meeting. I was only woman at a 12 person meeting. Dutch host went around table introducing everyone. Dr c, Dr x, Dr y etc except I was introduced as Mrs Jerseygirl! I corrected host - Dr Jerseygirl.
Later asked host why he used Mrs for me? Well you’re married! Yes but aren’t you? (He knew that I had PhD as did the others)

Used same title as the men next time

What an asshole! You being married is totally irrelevant

[alabamagal]

I have worked in a male dominated field (engineering) for 30 years. I try not to let the little stuff bother me too much. One of my coworkers S is 10 years younger and much more outspoken.

Today’s conversation was about how all our daily leadership motivations revolve around team sports (football) or war. She said she wanted to see some “female oriented” ones, so I told her to find some and submit them. Of course she said she couldn’t find any on you tube, so who knows.

A couple weeks ago she asked about how she could get people to take her seriously. I have not had a lot of issues. We talked about a lot of strategies. Part of her issue is that she is short, from another country and culture (although a lot of people at work are) and looks as young as a college student even though she is over 40.

[nidena]

20 years in the military...so many stories...and some of the douche canoes were people I had to take orders from.  

[jerseygirl]

Had many team building exercises in the states, mostly men. Yes in the US lots of emphasis on winning . Some of the events pitted teams against each other. One time a woman and a man in another team jumped on top of their table and howled we’re winners

Went to a team building exercise in Holland. It was in a lovely small castle and yep mostly men. Each group of about 3 were given a recipe snd directions and timing for making part of a dinner - appetizers, 2 entrees, salad , 2 desserts. Well we had fun and ended up with not a fabulous tasting dinnner but definitely enjoyed and learned about working together towards a goal .
Went to another team building there. This was to explore and increase our creativity- chemists, toxicologist, physicians, statisticians etc. we explored art, music, ideas and had meals snd drinks together- not competition but understanding and learning how to work together. We took a standardized test on creativity and all of these chemists etc stood on a line going from low to high. We were surprised that most of us were bunched in the high section
So it’s possible to learn as a team not solely on ‘male’ models of competitive sports or war

[formerroomate99]

20+ years in I T. Mostly guys. I haven’t had to deal with much bullying from men. Guys in corporate IT tend to be a pretty passive bunch. For some reason, the bullying always seems to come from women, usually ones that are outside my department.

Having moved to a more conservative area, I’m very grateful that I wasn’t trying to have kids when I lived here and I found that a lot of managers and coworkers are very confused when they encounter a woman who isn’t a fluffy people pleaser.

I think a lot of the crap women have to deal with is because the majority of them seem to think that being popular is more important than getting ahead or protecting themselves from abuse. Of course everything is a trade-off. There are advantages and disadvantages to either strategy. But you don’t see as many men who live in fear of occasionally being called a dick.

[swamp]

Jan 4, 2022 12:42:18 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

20+ years in I T. Mostly guys. I haven’t had to deal with much bullying from men. Guys in corporate IT tend to be a pretty passive bunch. For some reason, the bullying always seems to come from women, usually ones that are outside my department.

Having moved to a more conservative area, I’m very grateful that I wasn’t trying to have kids when I lived here and I found that a lot of managers and coworkers are very confused when they encounter a woman who isn’t a fluffy people pleaser.

I think a lot of the crap women have to deal with is because the majority of them seem to think that being popular is more important than getting ahead or protecting themselves from abuse. Of course everything is a trade-off. There are advantages and disadvantages to either strategy. But you don’t see as many men who live in fear of occasionally being called a dick.

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

[daisylu]

Jan 4, 2022 15:24:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 4, 2022 12:42:18 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

20+ years in I T. Mostly guys. I haven’t had to deal with much bullying from men. Guys in corporate IT tend to be a pretty passive bunch. For some reason, the bullying always seems to come from women, usually ones that are outside my department.

Having moved to a more conservative area, I’m very grateful that I wasn’t trying to have kids when I lived here and I found that a lot of managers and coworkers are very confused when they encounter a woman who isn’t a fluffy people pleaser.

I think a lot of the crap women have to deal with is because the majority of them seem to think that being popular is more important than getting ahead or protecting themselves from abuse. Of course everything is a trade-off. There are advantages and disadvantages to either strategy. But you don’t see as many men who live in fear of occasionally being called a dick.

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

You/we are disrespected because it has always been permitted. No matter how nice I am, I am still labelled as a "b*tch" - because I stand up for myself and I do not allow them to pretend that they are more knowledgeable than I am. And this abuse is not only from equal peers, it is from their employees who are several rungs further down the ladder. It just happens that that entire department is male. 

In the beginning, as a female, I was conditioned to try to make nice no matter what. As a now 46YO woman 20 years into this career I have no problem telling them to eff off.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jan 4, 2022 15:24:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 4, 2022 12:42:18 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

20+ years in I T. Mostly guys. I haven’t had to deal with much bullying from men. Guys in corporate IT tend to be a pretty passive bunch. For some reason, the bullying always seems to come from women, usually ones that are outside my department.

Having moved to a more conservative area, I’m very grateful that I wasn’t trying to have kids when I lived here and I found that a lot of managers and coworkers are very confused when they encounter a woman who isn’t a fluffy people pleaser.

I think a lot of the crap women have to deal with is because the majority of them seem to think that being popular is more important than getting ahead or protecting themselves from abuse. Of course everything is a trade-off. There are advantages and disadvantages to either strategy. But you don’t see as many men who live in fear of occasionally being called a dick.

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

There is also numerous studies done that show when women are "b" words it heavily impacts us career wise and not in a good way.   Men are assertive and take control when they act like assholes. They are getting stuff done.

 Women are bitches who constantly nag their peers and are probably on the rag.  It costs women jobs, raises, promotions and more.   This is shown in study after study where they remove names from resumes or do blind interviews.  For every positive "male" trait that trait is perceived negatively in women.

Telling women to act more like men when we are penalized for acting like men is just allowing those in charge to get away with their shitty behavior.  Why shouldn't women be allowed to be women?

For the record I've never been popular in my life I could care less, however I am well aware of men I have worked with that did not like me exercising my authority and expertise in their presence.  I happened to be fortunate they were not my actual boss so what they could do about it was very little but they let their opinion be known.  Imagine that those men were my superiors or in positions where they could influence my job/salary.  What am I supposed to be MORE "bitchy"?  Try to grow a pair of testicles and a beard?

I worked in an incredibly small world, those people could have had long term impacts on my career no matter where I went.   How exactly is a man being threatened enough by my vagina that he actively sabotages my career MY fault?  Why should I have to possibly leave a field that I worked hard to get into and become an expert in because some dude realized he's actually a mediocre POS that got where he was simply because he had a dick and not because he's so much smarter than women?

[TheOtherMe]

Jan 4, 2022 15:48:14 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Jan 4, 2022 15:24:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

You/we are disrespected because it has always been permitted. No matter how nice I am, I am still labelled as a "b*tch" - because I stand up for myself and I do not allow them to pretend that they are more knowledgeable than I am. And this abuse is not only from equal peers, it is from their employees who are several rungs further down the ladder. It just happens that that entire department is male. 

In the beginning, as a female, I was conditioned to try to make nice no matter what. As a now 46YO woman 20 years into this career I have no problem telling them to eff off.

It took me a long time to let myself be labeled a b*tch.  Many times, I was told I wasn't assertive.  When I would be assertive, I was told I was too aggressive and bossy.  

Can't win with that attitude that still exists.  

[formerroomate99]

Jan 4, 2022 15:24:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 4, 2022 12:42:18 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

20+ years in I T. Mostly guys. I haven’t had to deal with much bullying from men. Guys in corporate IT tend to be a pretty passive bunch. For some reason, the bullying always seems to come from women, usually ones that are outside my department.

Having moved to a more conservative area, I’m very grateful that I wasn’t trying to have kids when I lived here and I found that a lot of managers and coworkers are very confused when they encounter a woman who isn’t a fluffy people pleaser.

I think a lot of the crap women have to deal with is because the majority of them seem to think that being popular is more important than getting ahead or protecting themselves from abuse. Of course everything is a trade-off. There are advantages and disadvantages to either strategy. But you don’t see as many men who live in fear of occasionally being called a dick.

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

Well I guess I should’ve prefaced my previous post with what should’ve been obvious to anybody. Corporate IT is a very different animal from practicing law, or the military, etc. And no, I don’t think you deserve to be disrespected at work.

Are you saying that any woman who stands up for herself as a bitch, that it’s impossible to protect yourself from abuse and still be a decent person? Because everybody has to push back on abuse or disrespect from time to time. And I’m not about to let anybody, especially not another woman, try to make me feel guilty for standing up for myself.

Obviously, in a perfect world, nobody would have to defend themselves, because we would all be virtuous angels and we would all be able to communicate perfectly. But here in the real world, bullies don’t target the strong. They target the weak. .And if you’re of people pleasing doormat, or you belong to a group that has a disproportionately large number of people pleasing doormats, then you’re a heck of a lot more likely to be treated badly. I’ve seen this pattern with my mostly male, Indian coworkers, who are known for being calm and diffident, and are often treated horribly.

[formerroomate99]

Jan 4, 2022 16:24:14 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Jan 4, 2022 15:48:14 GMT -5 daisylu said:

You/we are disrespected because it has always been permitted. No matter how nice I am, I am still labelled as a "b*tch" - because I stand up for myself and I do not allow them to pretend that they are more knowledgeable than I am. And this abuse is not only from equal peers, it is from their employees who are several rungs further down the ladder. It just happens that that entire department is male. 

In the beginning, as a female, I was conditioned to try to make nice no matter what. As a now 46YO woman 20 years into this career I have no problem telling them to eff off.

It took me a long time to let myself be labeled a b*tch.  Many times, I was told I wasn't assertive.  When I would be assertive, I was told I was too aggressive and bossy.  

Can't win with that attitude that still exists.  

Three thoughts:

I think guys who stand up for themselves also occasionally get labeled as Jerks, but they don’t lose sleep over it.

If the majority of women started being assertive, then you wouldn’t stand out as much. It would just be considered normal behavior.

This is one reason I chose to go into IT. You can be a little antisocial without it being a career killer.

[formerroomate99]

Jan 4, 2022 15:54:18 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jan 4, 2022 15:24:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

So I’m disrespected professionally because I’m nice to people?  

I shouldn’t have to protect myself from abuse.  People should not abuse me.  

Way to blame women. 

There is also numerous studies done that show when women are "b" words it heavily impacts us career wise and not in a good way.   Men are assertive and take control when they act like assholes. They are getting stuff done.

 Women are bitches who constantly nag their peers and are probably on the rag.  It costs women jobs, raises, promotions and more.   This is shown in study after study where they remove names from resumes or do blind interviews.  For every positive "male" trait that trait is perceived negatively in women.

Telling women to act more like men when we are penalized for acting like men is just allowing those in charge to get away with their shitty behavior.  Why shouldn't women be allowed to be women?

For the record I've never been popular in my life I could care less, however I am well aware of men I have worked with that did not like me exercising my authority and expertise in their presence.  I happened to be fortunate they were not my actual boss so what they could do about it was very little but they let their opinion be known.  Imagine that those men were my superiors or in positions where they could influence my job/salary.  What am I supposed to be MORE "bitchy"?  Try to grow a pair of testicles and a beard?

I worked in an incredibly small world, those people could have had long term impacts on my career no matter where I went.   How exactly is a man being threatened enough by my vagina that he actively sabotages my career MY fault?  Why should I have to possibly leave a field that I worked hard to get into and become an expert in because some dude realized he's actually a mediocre POS that got where he was simply because he had a dick and not because he's so much smarter than women?

This sort of shit is the main reason I built my career on around being able to walk away. I wasn’t about to go into some tiny niche field where one guy’s word could ruin my career. And I certainly wasn’t going to go into any field where there’s fierce competition for very few jobs. I have a very generic skill set that 90% of the companies need and can bounce around from industry to industry without any problems. And since there aren’t that many people who are willing and able to do what I do, there are always plenty of jobs.

I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

[honeysalt]

Only woman in my organization in a very male dominated field. 

Last week a new hire came to my office to ask me about where he could get paper coffee cups since we are out of them.  I'm an executive.  There are many assistants and people more appropriate to ask, so I asked him why he thought I was more qualified to order cups?  He hemmed and hawed, but didn't answer because he couldn't admit that in his mind my gender is the qualifier. 

I also get a lot of "how can you do this job when you aren't obsessed with the male oriented product?"  I always ask them if they the think the CEO of Victoria's Secret being a man impacts his ability to do his job. 

Basically my approach is to respond with a question that embarrasses the offender.   

[justme]

We're in such a weird place. You have a lot of women that either haven't or think they haven't experienced sexism in work. And think that if they haven't no one else is so it's all good.

I luckily haven't experienced much, or if I have most of it is really fucking subtle. But the times I've had sucked. Even if I was able to rally and fuck them over. Like being pushed out of my job for a dude hired a year after I started, but I got to tell them fuck you after I got a job for more than $2/hr more than they were paying him. Or when I was shut out of running a club in college cuz I was one of 3 that had a vagina but a few months later I had several guys come up to me an apologized because exactly what I said would happen if I wasn't voted in happened and I refused to step in. (Sure let's spend $1500 on something only experienced people can use when the same amount of money - that I helped raise BTW - would pay for at least 3 sessions where beginners and advanced riders could ride. Anyone shocked that the $1500 equipment resided in the president's house so he could use it whenever?)

So the little I've experienced has given me a fuck this shit attitude unless I was given a good reason otherwise. Like my last job where I did administrative work - my manager was a little uncomfortable asking me as the only women so he made it very clear it was because I was lowest on the rung and thus cheapest overhead.

I'm rambling... but my eyes are open wide enough to realize that I've fucking lucked out that even being in a male dominated space (finance) to not be that affected by it. Between being able to say no to places that give me a bad vibe and being damn good at what I do I've lucked out.

[Deleted]

The only offer I got out of college was for an entry-level actuarial position.  That involved committing myself to a series of exams that took me 8 years to pass; pass ratios were typically around 40% and that was in competition with people just as smart and driven as I was, some with Masters' and Ph.Ds in Math or related fields.  When I became a Fellow of the Society in the early 1980s, fewer than 10% of the Fellows were female.

The good news:  exams were graded either by computer or, in the case of essays, by a committee that never saw your name.  If you knew your stuff, you passed.  If you failed, it wasn't because someone was trying to keep your particular sex, ethnic group, etc. out of the Society.  Those credentials gave you instant credibility.  I remember telling one old guy in the business that I'd passed the 5th exam (out of 10) and he said, "That's impressive.  I've known men who couldn't pass those exams".

I think that was a compliment.  

I can name a fairly large number of female actuaries who ended up in C-suite positions, including CEO.  I never made it beyond VP (a VERY common title in insurance).  Some of that was because I just didn't want work to be my whole life, and some of it was the typical behavior instilled into women in the 1950s/1960s- be nice, don't call people out on bad behavior (especially around others), don't confront, accept whatever salary they offer you, etc.  There's a lot I'd like to do over again but I still had a really good career.

[TheOtherMe]

Jan 15, 2022 1:36:37 GMT -5 justme said:

We're in such a weird place. You have a lot of women that either haven't or think they haven't experienced sexism in work. And think that if they haven't no one else is so it's all good.

I luckily haven't experienced much, or if I have most of it is really fucking subtle. But the times I've had sucked. Even if I was able to rally and fuck them over. Like being pushed out of my job for a dude hired a year after I started, but I got to tell them fuck you after I got a job for more than $2/hr more than they were paying him. Or when I was shut out of running a club in college cuz I was one of 3 that had a vagina but a few months later I had several guys come up to me an apologized because exactly what I said would happen if I wasn't voted in happened and I refused to step in. (Sure let's spend $1500 on something only experienced people can use when the same amount of money - that I helped raise BTW - would pay for at least 3 sessions where beginners and advanced riders could ride. Anyone shocked that the $1500 equipment resided in the president's house so he could use it whenever?)

So the little I've experienced has given me a fuck this shit attitude unless I was given a good reason otherwise. Like my last job where I did administrative work - my manager was a little uncomfortable asking me as the only women so he made it very clear it was because I was lowest on the rung and thus cheapest overhead.

I'm rambling... but my eyes are open wide enough to realize that I've fucking lucked out that even being in a male dominated space (finance) to not be that affected by it. Between being able to say no to places that give me a bad vibe and being damn good at what I do I've lucked out.

I do get tired of hearing people like my niece (young 40's) and others her age and younger say they have never experienced sexism and they definitely are not a feminist.  

How do they think they are getting some of the benefits they are.

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2022 15:44:01 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I do get tired of hearing people like my niece (young 40's) and others her age and younger say they have never experienced sexism and they definitely are not a feminist.  

How do they think they are getting some of the benefits they are.

Oh, they have no idea. I have a long memory and remind them of what "the good old days" were like.

[honeysalt]

Jan 15, 2022 15:44:01 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I do get tired of hearing people like my niece (young 40's) and others her age and younger say they have never experienced sexism and they definitely are not a feminist.  

How do they think they are getting some of the benefits they are.

One of the saddest things about misogyny to me is how much I have seen women participate in it. 

At a work dinner one of my co-worker's wives was victim shaming women in the me too movement and defending predators.  Since she has never experienced sexual harassment, these "types of women" clearly "wanted the attention."  

While it is comforting to believe that we can behave a certain way to earn "good girl" status and avoid predatory behavior, the truth is we are only as safe as the most vulnerable among us.  It is fine to harass, hurt, etc. certain "types of women/people" according to people like co-worker's wife.  What separates me/you from these undesirable "types?"  Perception.  That is all.