gambler
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"the education of a man is never completed until he dies" Robert E. Lee
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:39:24 GMT -5
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Post by gambler on May 19, 2021 15:10:57 GMT -5
I must have grown up in the same generation as you miss t.While am now mostly retired I still keep a hand in a few things, last week I called four layed off employees 3 said no the drift and was told from a ten year employee they would milk the government for all they could. Reported them all to ui as being offered work and refused, also told them they no longer had jobs. The fourth asked for a week to Arrange child care, she comes back Monday to a nice raise. I started out at 13 worked before school went to school worked after. Spelling was first class never could quite make it maybe that's way my spelling is terrible
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 19, 2021 16:27:00 GMT -5
I'm running thru my mental list of people I know who are/were unemployed at some time during Covid. <snip> Look at how many people are not working for a time due to issues with childcare, eldercare, health issues, spouse relocations. I've seen multiple sources that state that a disproportionate number of women have left the workforce during COVID. Schools dumped all the teaching back on the parents and if the woman had the lower income or was a single mother, well....guess who quit. Hindsight is 20-20 but now I wonder if some elementary, middle and high schools couldn't have switched to classes in unused colleges and community colleges- larger classrooms and lecture halls, set up for PowerPoint and videos if needed, plenty of room for distancing. It might have allowed a lot more parents to keep their jobs.I don't know about your area, but counties of NJ I am familiar with have one county community college. None of which are near any schools that I can think of. Not sure how many colleges are even near schools like that. There are old colleges like Princeton and Rutgers where the town grew around them. Maybe for a handful of city kids but what about suburbia and rural areas? I'd think churches and lodges would be more viable even if they wouldn't help that much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 18:09:53 GMT -5
I'm running thru my mental list of people I know who are/were unemployed at some time during Covid. SIL - laid off before Covid, so unemployment ran out prior to any federal UI supplements. Really hard to interview once Covid began. Now working again from home, may relocate if/when return to office. DD3 - left job in anticipation of relocating (and tired of making minimum while doing the job of a teacher), then DH (above) was laid off. No UI. Other SIL - grad student before Covid, infant in daycare, daycare unreliable due to sporadic Covid cases at site. Now anticipating military relocating as trailing spouse. No UI. DS4 - student during Covid. Pushed out of dorms, so little job opportunities here at home, until now. No UI. Began working last month. My brother - broke his hip; out on medical leave. His wife - laid off from school during shutdown, got UI + supplements. Recently called back after schools reopened. Music teacher in our district, and his wife - both on family medical leave due to health issues of dependents, one acute. Wife is in another state with ill child for long term treatment. He has to care for other child. Musician - has been staying afloat on UI and supplements. As soon as he can return to performing, he will, but to date his field is just turned off. His biggest regular gigs, pre-Covid? Nursing homes, and casinos. Casinos are reopening for gambling with limited capacity, but not sure if the entertainment side is viable yet, locally. Nursing homes have been locked down for so long, and their finances stretched by Covid - don't think that will come roaring back for him soon. I know he's on Medicare, so 65+; is he really expected to go out and retrain for a job in some other field at his age? Food service? During his hiatus, he's been busy caring for his 94 yo mother, and working on a developing a plaque for a local historical site. Self employed woman - in process of opening a restaurant when Covid hit. No PPP, etc, for her as she was not yet open. Trying to qualify for restaurant revitalization $$. She was trying to make the jump from food truck/fair food vendor (more the latter) to fixed location. During Covid food trucks were banned and there were zero events for food vendors. Again, her field was just turned off. Look at how many people are not working for a time due to issues with childcare, eldercare, health issues, spouse relocations. It's not just as simple as UI results in more net pay than minimum wage jobs (especially if they are *almost* but not quite full-time). Though, if UI is more lucrative than working (especially after working expenses like childcare) then wages are TOO LOW! I think the thing I object to the most is this line of reasoning: if we need more workers, we need to FORCE them to work, by starving them out. No, no one should be forced into working. If you need more workers, you need to offer an employment package that ENTICES workers to work for you. That package is more than just wages; it is also benefits like health insurance (until we separate that out of employment permanently), retirement accounts and contributions, flexibility, hours, and working conditions. This is basic B-Mod, positive reinforcement is always better than negative reinforcement. The CEOs know that for upper level employees. They need to apply it top to bottom. The only reason I worked a job I hated was to put a roof over our heads and food on our table. In my younger days, I cleaned schools, sold plasma and other low paid jobs that I prefer to block out. I did those things because I have pride and my fall back answer is not to have the taxpayers support me. Same reason my grandma went to work in a factory when my grandfather died. I guess I just come from different stock. I’ve worked a job I don’t like and have hated at times, for over 20 years. Having BTDT myself, I think I’m qualified to address your post. When I first got the job, I had been taking night classes at a local University (while working full time and raising young children), easing my way into going back to college. Then I was offered this job, making decent money. Besides the pay and benefits, it felt like security to me because it was with the federal government. It paid enough that I could work toward buying a house myself and move my children out of the house we lived in, that my Grandmother owned. She’d bought it brand new, in what was originally a nice neighborhood, but by then, it was definitely the ‘hood. I didn’t want to raise my children there. I didn’t even want them to go to the school they were assigned to, so I made a way for them to get to and fro at an optional (“better”) school that I enrolled them in. In hindsight, before I got that job, I’m pretty sure I qualified for several government benefits. But I had pride too, and it never even occurred to me to apply. At one point, I was making $6.60/hour and paying $400/month for DD to go to daycare full time and DS to go part time. And I’d “stole” the car back from my ex-husband, that was in both our names, financed by the bank that hired me after we separated, that he wasn’t making the payments on….. so I also had a car payment. I still don’t know how I made all that mess work, but I did. All that to say, you aren’t the only person that has been determined to make their own way in the world and been willing to do whatever they had to do to make shit happen. Other people may not have ultimately been as “successful” as you because their paths were different, and maybe they were not quite as ambitious as you, but that doesn’t mean you are somehow better than them. And honestly, that’s how you come across most of the time, like you think you’re better than people that didn’t make the same choices you did. I have no problem acknowledging that a lot of the good things that have happened in my life were pure luck, and had nothing to do with how smart I am (I’m actually a “genius” according to tests. Well, I used to be, I think a lost more than a few brain cells between raising kids and life ) or how hard I was willing to work. Even my good gubmint job, I got it because I’m not a dummy, I have an excellent memory (well, use to) and I’m good at taking tests. And then I was able to pass a drug screen and physical, and lift and carry 70lbs for however far they required. That’s it. No particular skill or knowledge, and I make more than some people that have college degrees. I call it a blessing, because how is that not random? I lived in my Grandmother’s other paid for house, just paying taxes and insurance and for maintenance and repairs, until I bought my own. I didn’t have anything to do with the fact that my Grandmother had a house I could live in, but it sure was a huge help. I bet that in your life too, some things happened that were pure luck and there have also been people that were at least willing to help you a little, or give you a chance to prove yourself. There are so many people that work as hard as they can, with what they know and can do, and still don’t have the trappings of what we consider “success”. And we act like their hard work and ethics don’t mean shit. There are others that could be great at one thing or another, if they just had the opportunity. But they don’t have the means or know the right people to get those opportunities no matter how hard they try. Are they “less than”, just because of how our world is set up? I don’t think so. I don’t knock you for being proud of the accomplishments you’ve made and the life you created for yourself, despite coming from what you describe as akin to “nothing”. I just wish you and people like you could understand that there are people that come from even worse, and some can’t even figure out a realistic way to do what you did. Others feel too hopeless to even consider they can make shit happen and have the life they want. I’m just saying you could have a little compassion when you judge people without knowing a darn thing about their lives and circumstances. Yeah, this is America, where anybody can be whatever they want to be if they work hard at it, except that’s not really true.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 19, 2021 21:42:48 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is when Miss T was doing all she had to do, was she also taking care of young kids AND aged parents at the same time, while she was pulling herself up by her bootstraps. I'm even "lucky" that the increased responsibilities with Mom weren't even all that. All I had to do was figure out how to smoosh 14 days of responsibility into 10. I didn't have take care of her more basic needs. Let's make yourself 45 again. You were working full time. I know you were equally working on your passive income stream. So, we'll put you on par, with me, in terms of multiple jobs right now. We are both the breadwinners of our families, at that point (you weren't married). So. What happened if you got Covid at 45, with a three year old under foot, and dealing with three kids doing distance learning for (for a year) you were a long hauler..Meaning, getting over covid would be a 9 month proposition. I think that's a fair comparison for my cancer treatment. Radiation is still a wild card. But, chemo is 5 months, then I get a rest period, then likely a mastectomy, with a 4-6 week "typical" recovery time. So, even without radiation, I'm looking at 7-8 months of medical crap. Plus, dealing with light elder care on top of it. And Opps! I forgot I was in grad school and I have to start studying for the MAT..
And: DH working part time..not even a thing., sure it makes life easier, but I'm not absolved of responsibilities because of it. I'm still doing stuff like taking the girls to overnight scout camp 2 days after a chemo treatment. I took time off of work or rearranged my schedule to support DD1 and her activities (she needed like 14 volunteer hours to advance for scouts) on top of all the crap involved with getting a firmer diagnosis.
Would you consider yourself a failure, if say, something had to give and you couldn't manage it all..and that meant that you had to give something up and rely on unemployment, stimulus money to make the budget work? Meaning, working two jobs, while dealing with a health issue, with being the primary bread winner of generally, still a young family, grad school AND trying to navigate parental issues was too much?
Or, would you choose my path, and just sigh and say, "well, the plate got a little more cozy" and move on like nothing changed? And then be upset at all those who couldn't manage such a full plate and insist that "if only they could pull themselves up like I did." ETA: I have to say. Even with everything, I am absolutely humbled to know that folks have different limitations. And as Pope Francis said "Who am I to judge?"
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 5:36:56 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is when Miss T was doing all she had to do, was she also taking care of young kids AND aged parents at the same time, while she was pulling herself up by her bootstraps. I'm even "lucky" that the increased responsibilities with Mom weren't even all that. All I had to do was figure out how to smoosh 14 days of responsibility into 10. I didn't have take care of her more basic needs. Let's make yourself 45 again. You were working full time. I know you were equally working on your passive income stream. So, we'll put you on par, with me, in terms of multiple jobs right now. We are both the breadwinners of our families, at that point (you weren't married). So. What happened if you got Covid at 45, with a three year old under foot, and dealing with three kids doing distance learning for (for a year) you were a long hauler..Meaning, getting over covid would be a 9 month proposition. I think that's a fair comparison for my cancer treatment. Radiation is still a wild card. But, chemo is 5 months, then I get a rest period, then likely a mastectomy, with a 4-6 week "typical" recovery time. So, even without radiation, I'm looking at 7-8 months of medical crap. Plus, dealing with light elder care on top of it. And Opps! I forgot I was in grad school and I have to start studying for the MAT..
And: DH working part time..not even a thing., sure it makes life easier, but I'm not absolved of responsibilities because of it. I'm still doing stuff like taking the girls to overnight scout camp 2 days after a chemo treatment. I took time off of work or rearranged my schedule to support DD1 and her activities (she needed like 14 volunteer hours to advance for scouts) on top of all the crap involved with getting a firmer diagnosis.
Would you consider yourself a failure, if say, something had to give and you couldn't manage it all..and that meant that you had to give something up and rely on unemployment, stimulus money to make the budget work? Meaning, working two jobs, while dealing with a health issue, with being the primary bread winner of generally, still a young family, grad school AND trying to navigate parental issues was too much?
Or, would you choose my path, and just sigh and say, "well, the plate got a little more cozy" and move on like nothing changed? And then be upset at all those who couldn't manage such a full plate and insist that "if only they could pull themselves up like I did." ETA: I have to say. Even with everything, I am absolutely humbled to know that folks have different limitations. And as Pope Francis said "Who am I to judge?"
First, I’m very sorry that you have cancer. I don’t wish that on anyone. But to compare people choosing not to work to someone battling a serious illness is just silly. Not even remotely the same thing.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 5:44:57 GMT -5
The only reason I worked a job I hated was to put a roof over our heads and food on our table. In my younger days, I cleaned schools, sold plasma and other low paid jobs that I prefer to block out. I did those things because I have pride and my fall back answer is not to have the taxpayers support me. Same reason my grandma went to work in a factory when my grandfather died. I guess I just come from different stock. I’ve worked a job I don’t like and have hated at times, for over 20 years. Having BTDT myself, I think I’m qualified to address your post. When I first got the job, I had been taking night classes at a local University (while working full time and raising young children), easing my way into going back to college. Then I was offered this job, making decent money. Besides the pay and benefits, it felt like security to me because it was with the federal government. It paid enough that I could work toward buying a house myself and move my children out of the house we lived in, that my Grandmother owned. She’d bought it brand new, in what was originally a nice neighborhood, but by then, it was definitely the ‘hood. I didn’t want to raise my children there. I didn’t even want them to go to the school they were assigned to, so I made a way for them to get to and fro at an optional (“better”) school that I enrolled them in. In hindsight, before I got that job, I’m pretty sure I qualified for several government benefits. But I had pride too, and it never even occurred to me to apply. At one point, I was making $6.60/hour and paying $400/month for DD to go to daycare full time and DS to go part time. And I’d “stole” the car back from my ex-husband, that was in both our names, financed by the bank that hired me after we separated, that he wasn’t making the payments on….. so I also had a car payment. I still don’t know how I made all that mess work, but I did. All that to say, you aren’t the only person that has been determined to make their own way in the world and been willing to do whatever they had to do to make shit happen. Other people may not have ultimately been as “successful” as you because their paths were different, and maybe they were not quite as ambitious as you, but that doesn’t mean you are somehow better than them. And honestly, that’s how you come across most of the time, like you think you’re better than people that didn’t make the same choices you did. I have no problem acknowledging that a lot of the good things that have happened in my life were pure luck, and had nothing to do with how smart I am (I’m actually a “genius” according to tests. Well, I used to be, I think a lost more than a few brain cells between raising kids and life ) or how hard I was willing to work. Even my good gubmint job, I got it because I’m not a dummy, I have an excellent memory (well, use to) and I’m good at taking tests. And then I was able to pass a drug screen and physical, and lift and carry 70lbs for however far they required. That’s it. No particular skill or knowledge, and I make more than some people that have college degrees. I call it a blessing, because how is that not random? I lived in my Grandmother’s other paid for house, just paying taxes and insurance and for maintenance and repairs, until I bought my own. I didn’t have anything to do with the fact that my Grandmother had a house I could live in, but it sure was a huge help. I bet that in your life too, some things happened that were pure luck and there have also been people that were at least willing to help you a little, or give you a chance to prove yourself. There are so many people that work as hard as they can, with what they know and can do, and still don’t have the trappings of what we consider “success”. And we act like their hard work and ethics don’t mean shit. There are others that could be great at one thing or another, if they just had the opportunity. But they don’t have the means or know the right people to get those opportunities no matter how hard they try. Are they “less than”, just because of how our world is set up? I don’t think so. I don’t knock you for being proud of the accomplishments you’ve made and the life you created for yourself, despite coming from what you describe as akin to “nothing”. I just wish you and people like you could understand that there are people that come from even worse, and some can’t even figure out a realistic way to do what you did. Others feel too hopeless to even consider they can make shit happen and have the life they want. I’m just saying you could have a little compassion when you judge people without knowing a darn thing about their lives and circumstances. Yeah, this is America, where anybody can be whatever they want to be if they work hard at it, except that’s not really true. I truly have no idea why I come across as better than someone that also busted their ass to get where they are in life. As I mentioned, my grandma went to work in a factory in her 50s beceause her husband died. She worked very hard until she hit retirement age. I am proud of her, because she didn’t sit home and let others support her. Counter my grandmother with my mother. She was very comfortable living on government assistance and not working. People like that I do judge. I’m actually someone that doesn’t think I’m better than others. Which is why I know if I could make a life for myself, anyone can. And I don’t mean making $xx amount per year. I mean being self-supportive for the choices that one makes. It seems our country has shifted and people no longer have pride or the desire to be self-supportive. It is hard work, but barring a true disability or catastrophic illness, it can be done.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2021 6:15:50 GMT -5
I’ve worked a job I don’t like and have hated at times, for over 20 years. Having BTDT myself, I think I’m qualified to address your post. When I first got the job, I had been taking night classes at a local University (while working full time and raising young children), easing my way into going back to college. Then I was offered this job, making decent money. Besides the pay and benefits, it felt like security to me because it was with the federal government. It paid enough that I could work toward buying a house myself and move my children out of the house we lived in, that my Grandmother owned. She’d bought it brand new, in what was originally a nice neighborhood, but by then, it was definitely the ‘hood. I didn’t want to raise my children there. I didn’t even want them to go to the school they were assigned to, so I made a way for them to get to and fro at an optional (“better”) school that I enrolled them in. In hindsight, before I got that job, I’m pretty sure I qualified for several government benefits. But I had pride too, and it never even occurred to me to apply. At one point, I was making $6.60/hour and paying $400/month for DD to go to daycare full time and DS to go part time. And I’d “stole” the car back from my ex-husband, that was in both our names, financed by the bank that hired me after we separated, that he wasn’t making the payments on….. so I also had a car payment. I still don’t know how I made all that mess work, but I did. All that to say, you aren’t the only person that has been determined to make their own way in the world and been willing to do whatever they had to do to make shit happen. Other people may not have ultimately been as “successful” as you because their paths were different, and maybe they were not quite as ambitious as you, but that doesn’t mean you are somehow better than them. And honestly, that’s how you come across most of the time, like you think you’re better than people that didn’t make the same choices you did. I have no problem acknowledging that a lot of the good things that have happened in my life were pure luck, and had nothing to do with how smart I am (I’m actually a “genius” according to tests. Well, I used to be, I think a lost more than a few brain cells between raising kids and life ) or how hard I was willing to work. Even my good gubmint job, I got it because I’m not a dummy, I have an excellent memory (well, use to) and I’m good at taking tests. And then I was able to pass a drug screen and physical, and lift and carry 70lbs for however far they required. That’s it. No particular skill or knowledge, and I make more than some people that have college degrees. I call it a blessing, because how is that not random? I lived in my Grandmother’s other paid for house, just paying taxes and insurance and for maintenance and repairs, until I bought my own. I didn’t have anything to do with the fact that my Grandmother had a house I could live in, but it sure was a huge help. I bet that in your life too, some things happened that were pure luck and there have also been people that were at least willing to help you a little, or give you a chance to prove yourself. There are so many people that work as hard as they can, with what they know and can do, and still don’t have the trappings of what we consider “success”. And we act like their hard work and ethics don’t mean shit. There are others that could be great at one thing or another, if they just had the opportunity. But they don’t have the means or know the right people to get those opportunities no matter how hard they try. Are they “less than”, just because of how our world is set up? I don’t think so. I don’t knock you for being proud of the accomplishments you’ve made and the life you created for yourself, despite coming from what you describe as akin to “nothing”. I just wish you and people like you could understand that there are people that come from even worse, and some can’t even figure out a realistic way to do what you did. Others feel too hopeless to even consider they can make shit happen and have the life they want. I’m just saying you could have a little compassion when you judge people without knowing a darn thing about their lives and circumstances. Yeah, this is America, where anybody can be whatever they want to be if they work hard at it, except that’s not really true. I truly have no idea why I come across as better than someone that also busted their ass to get where they are in life. As I mentioned, my grandma went to work in a factory in her 50s beceause her husband died. She worked very hard until she hit retirement age. I am proud of her, because she didn’t sit home and let others support her. Counter my grandmother with my mother. She was very comfortable living on government assistance and not working. People like that I do judge. I’m actually someone that doesn’t think I’m better than others. Which is why I know if I could make a life for myself, anyone can. And I don’t mean making $xx amount per year. I mean being self-supportive for the choices that one makes. It seems our country has shifted and people no longer have pride or the desire to be self-supportive. It is hard work, but barring a true disability or catastrophic illness, it can be done. Has it really shifted though? Or is it really a perception issue and a reporting issue?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 6:57:07 GMT -5
I truly have no idea why I come across as better than someone that also busted their ass to get where they are in life. As I mentioned, my grandma went to work in a factory in her 50s beceause her husband died. She worked very hard until she hit retirement age. I am proud of her, because she didn’t sit home and let others support her. Counter my grandmother with my mother. She was very comfortable living on government assistance and not working. People like that I do judge. I’m actually someone that doesn’t think I’m better than others. Which is why I know if I could make a life for myself, anyone can. And I don’t mean making $xx amount per year. I mean being self-supportive for the choices that one makes. It seems our country has shifted and people no longer have pride or the desire to be self-supportive. It is hard work, but barring a true disability or catastrophic illness, it can be done. Has it really shifted though? Or is it really a perception issue and a reporting issue? Reading this thread, I would say it shifted. We no longer expect people to sacrifice anything to support themselves. I understand that today I’m in a good position but that wasn’t always the case. I’ve done plenty of manual labor to get here. And if my world shifted, I know I could get a job tomorrow doing blue collar work. I’ve been accused of thinking I’m better than others but I’m actually just a person who would do whatever it took to support her family. I’m not too good to work on a factory floor if I had to. I’m not too good to flip burgers or run a register. I am too good to just throw in the towel and let the taxpayers support me. I’m a woman who wouldn’t take a cent from a man (child support) because I will never need someone else to support me or my children. Does it truly surprise anyone that I would feel the same way about taxpayer assistance? That isn’t arrogance or looking down at other hardworking people. That is pride. I don’t sit back and whine about my lot in life. I bust my ass to change it.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 20, 2021 7:12:32 GMT -5
The problem is you are unwilling to accept that not everyone is as capable. Due to genetics, medical issues(some self-inflicted), psychiatric issues, lack of intelligence, there are people who cannot improve their circumstances. Painting everyone who is in bad circumstances as lazy or unwilling is not being realistic, and not making provisions for them is not what a caring society does. In addition, our work has changed. Good manufacturing jobs have declined greatly, and have been replaced by minimum wage service jobs. How we figure this out will determine where we end up. But to think there are enough “good” jobs out there is wrong
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 7:21:44 GMT -5
The problem is you are unwilling to accept that not everyone is as capable. Due to genetics, medical issues(some self-inflicted), psychiatric issues, lack of intelligence, there are people who cannot improve their circumstances. Painting everyone who is in bad circumstances as lazy or unwilling is not being realistic, and not making provisions for them is not what a caring society does. In addition, our work has changed. Good manufacturing jobs have declined greatly, and have been replaced by minimum wage service jobs. How we figure this out will determine where we end up. But to think there are enough “good” jobs out there is wrong That’s where you and I differ, apparently. I wouldn’t sit home until a “good job” came open. I wouldn’t think I was too good to make $15-$16 per hr (going rate at McD that can’t find people to work). All I need is a roof over my head and food our table. Everything else is fluff. And I’ve already said that someone with a catastrophic illness or a true disability (laziness is not a disability) would be the exception. I am laughing because I’m the one accused of thinking I’m better than others yet it appears I’m the only one that doesn’t think I’m too good to take whatever job I had to. To be clear, I’m not saying I would enjoy working in a warehouse, but if it were that or failing my family, you bet I would be there tomorrow
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 7:27:13 GMT -5
The problem is you are unwilling to accept that not everyone is as capable. Due to genetics, medical issues(some self-inflicted), psychiatric issues, lack of intelligence, there are people who cannot improve their circumstances. Painting everyone who is in bad circumstances as lazy or unwilling is not being realistic, and not making provisions for them is not what a caring society does. In addition, our work has changed. Good manufacturing jobs have declined greatly, and have been replaced by minimum wage service jobs. How we figure this out will determine where we end up. But to think there are enough “good” jobs out there is wrong I agree with you on most of this. I saw a quote from Elon Musk ascribing all his success to hard work. Of course he worked hard- but if he'd been born into a poor family in a developing country with below-average intelligence and worked just as hard at cleaning toilets his whole life he would not be where he is now. But- there are things you can do that can help your financial security. Choosing a field where you can support yourself if you have the skillset and the health to do so. (In other words, don't get a degree in English Lit. and complain about your minimum-wage job.) Staying in the workforce instead of dropping out when you have kids. Don't just look at the current change in household income if you quit- look at what you lose over 10-15 years in SS benefits, retirement savings, 401(k) matches, promotions, etc. Not having more kids than you can afford to raise and educate. Giving up some frills (if you can afford frills) to save for retirement so you're not trying to live on SS alone in old age or relying on Medicaid for LTC. I know I was born on third base- marketable skills, parents who valued education and paid for it- but I also went back to work 6 weeks after DS was born. I just realized that I was in a similar position to all the people getting extended unemployment now- I was downsized in 1995 and because I'd been with the company for 10 years I got 20 weeks of paid salary and benefits. I called a recruiter the day I was let go. I was at a new job in 6 weeks. Partly luck and a great professional network- but there was NO WAY I would have waited till the $$ ran out to look for another job.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 20, 2021 8:11:21 GMT -5
The problem is you are unwilling to accept that not everyone is as capable. Due to genetics, medical issues(some self-inflicted), psychiatric issues, lack of intelligence, there are people who cannot improve their circumstances. Painting everyone who is in bad circumstances as lazy or unwilling is not being realistic, and not making provisions for them is not what a caring society does. In addition, our work has changed. Good manufacturing jobs have declined greatly, and have been replaced by minimum wage service jobs. How we figure this out will determine where we end up. But to think there are enough “good” jobs out there is wrong I agree with you on most of this. I saw a quote from Elon Musk ascribing all his success to hard work. Of course he worked hard- but if he'd been born into a poor family in a developing country with below-average intelligence and worked just as hard at cleaning toilets his whole life he would not be where he is now. But- there are things you can do that can help your financial security. Choosing a field where you can support yourself if you have the skillset and the health to do so. (In other words, don't get a degree in English Lit. and complain about your minimum-wage job.) Staying in the workforce instead of dropping out when you have kids. Don't just look at the current change in household income if you quit- look at what you lose over 10-15 years in SS benefits, retirement savings, 401(k) matches, promotions, etc. Not having more kids than you can afford to raise and educate. Giving up some frills (if you can afford frills) to save for retirement so you're not trying to live on SS alone in old age or relying on Medicaid for LTC. I know I was born on third base- marketable skills, parents who valued education and paid for it- but I also went back to work 6 weeks after DS was born. I just realized that I was in a similar position to all the people getting extended unemployment now- I was downsized in 1995 and because I'd been with the company for 10 years I got 20 weeks of paid salary and benefits. I called a recruiter the day I was let go. I was at a new job in 6 weeks. Partly luck and a great professional network- but there was NO WAY I would have waited till the $$ ran out to look for another job. Yes. Being born on third base is a great description.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 20, 2021 10:51:52 GMT -5
The problem is you are unwilling to accept that not everyone is as capable. Due to genetics, medical issues(some self-inflicted), psychiatric issues, lack of intelligence, there are people who cannot improve their circumstances. Painting everyone who is in bad circumstances as lazy or unwilling is not being realistic, and not making provisions for them is not what a caring society does. In addition, our work has changed. Good manufacturing jobs have declined greatly, and have been replaced by minimum wage service jobs. How we figure this out will determine where we end up. But to think there are enough “good” jobs out there is wrong I agree with you on most of this. I saw a quote from Elon Musk ascribing all his success to hard work. Of course he worked hard- but if he'd been born into a poor family in a developing country with below-average intelligence and worked just as hard at cleaning toilets his whole life he would not be where he is now. But- there are things you can do that can help your financial security. Choosing a field where you can support yourself if you have the skillset and the health to do so. (In other words, don't get a degree in English Lit. and complain about your minimum-wage job.) Staying in the workforce instead of dropping out when you have kids. Don't just look at the current change in household income if you quit- look at what you lose over 10-15 years in SS benefits, retirement savings, 401(k) matches, promotions, etc. Not having more kids than you can afford to raise and educate. Giving up some frills (if you can afford frills) to save for retirement so you're not trying to live on SS alone in old age or relying on Medicaid for LTC. I know I was born on third base- marketable skills, parents who valued education and paid for it- but I also went back to work 6 weeks after DS was born. I just realized that I was in a similar position to all the people getting extended unemployment now- I was downsized in 1995 and because I'd been with the company for 10 years I got 20 weeks of paid salary and benefits. I called a recruiter the day I was let go. I was at a new job in 6 weeks. Partly luck and a great professional network- but there was NO WAY I would have waited till the $$ ran out to look for another job. There are plenty of posters here with humanities degrees or no degree at all that support themselves just fine.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 20, 2021 11:25:59 GMT -5
I hate the whole don't pick a humanities degree.
Do you read fiction books? Do you watch TV? Movies? Plays? Music?
When is the last time you've gone 24 hours without any art in your life?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 20, 2021 11:29:15 GMT -5
2021 is very different than 1995. I was in college at the time, and went without health insurance. Going to see my doc back then cost me a whopping $35, which is less than my copay with insurance these days I think that was around the time gas was < $1/gallon. It was definitely a time you could still work your way through school, as that is what I and many other students did at the time.
Also, guns were not as prevalent, and much fewer customers were entitled assholes. Plus, there wasn't a pandemic going on. Those things are important when you are working at those shittier jobs.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 20, 2021 11:34:25 GMT -5
Good to know that you believe cancer is not a serious illness. I sort of beg to differ, spending 5 months having poison pumped through my body. Even the nurses administering my drugs aren't like "la la I'm touching super non-toxic meds." And also, you deflected, because you don't think cancer is a thing. So, you cheated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 11:36:49 GMT -5
There are plenty of posters here with humanities degrees or no degree at all that support themselves just fine. Well, at least the ones with no degrees at all don't have $100K in student loans to pay off. Quite a few actuaries I know were double majors- Math or Actuarial Science plus Music, Theology, Linguistics, Classics...but let's face it, decent jobs in those non-STEM fields are harder to find unless you have good auxiliary skills such as sales. Or you go to Law School or get an MBA on top of them. If you're going to college you need to take a hard-nosed look at your earning potential vs. the cost of your education and the payments on any loans you'll be taking out. Unfortunately many people figure that out after graduation.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 20, 2021 11:49:48 GMT -5
There are plenty of posters here with humanities degrees or no degree at all that support themselves just fine. Well, at least the ones with no degrees at all don't have $100K in student loans to pay off. Quite a few actuaries I know were double majors- Math or Actuarial Science plus Music, Theology, Linguistics, Classics...but let's face it, decent jobs in those non-STEM fields are harder to find unless you have good auxiliary skills such as sales. Or you go to Law School or get an MBA on top of them. If you're going to college you need to take a hard-nosed look at your earning potential vs. the cost of your education and the payments on any loans you'll be taking out. Unfortunately many people figure that out after graduation. I'll give you some of this. Not everyone has good critical thinking/executive functioning skills. That's for both STEM and non-STEM folks. I work with 30 year professionals that can't follow directions or a deadline to save their life. (that's in engineering, by the way). And I've gotten everywhere I have because I have the personality, critical thinking skills and decent enough executive functioning skills.
Which is why I work with the kids massively on critical thinking skills from the moment they can start asking questions.
And, the average student loan from undergrad is still 30K a believe. I'd prefer to refer to the average than the outliers. It's too bad the outliers get all of the attention, rather than the average. It's curious, too, which outliers we all pay attention to.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 20, 2021 11:51:18 GMT -5
Good to know that you believe cancer is not a serious illness. I sort of beg to differ, spending 5 months having poison pumped through my body. Even the nurses administering my drugs aren't like "la la I'm touching super non-toxic meds." And also, you deflected, because you don't think cancer is a thing. So, you cheated.
You might want to reread what she wrote.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 11:51:33 GMT -5
Good to know that you believe cancer is not a serious illness. I sort of beg to differ, spending 5 months having poison pumped through my body. Even the nurses administering my drugs aren't like "la la I'm touching super non-toxic meds." And also, you deflected, because you don't think cancer is a thing. So, you cheated.
What in the world are you talking about? Re-read what I wrote. I said “comparing people choosing not to work with those battling a serious illness is silly”. Where did I say cancer wasn’t serious? That was the serious illness I was referring to Edited to delete my sarcasm. You are going through a lot and you don’t need my sarcasm right now. But you really misread my post and jumped on my ass because of it
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 11:53:07 GMT -5
Good to know that you believe cancer is not a serious illness. I sort of beg to differ, spending 5 months having poison pumped through my body. Even the nurses administering my drugs aren't like "la la I'm touching super non-toxic meds." And also, you deflected, because you don't think cancer is a thing. So, you cheated.
You might want to reread what she wrote. Thank you! I even had to re-read what I wrote to make sure I didn’t get caught by a typo. But no, my post was written as I expected
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 12:14:12 GMT -5
I agree with you on most of this. I saw a quote from Elon Musk ascribing all his success to hard work. Of course he worked hard- but if he'd been born into a poor family in a developing country with below-average intelligence and worked just as hard at cleaning toilets his whole life he would not be where he is now. But- there are things you can do that can help your financial security. Choosing a field where you can support yourself if you have the skillset and the health to do so. (In other words, don't get a degree in English Lit. and complain about your minimum-wage job.) Staying in the workforce instead of dropping out when you have kids. Don't just look at the current change in household income if you quit- look at what you lose over 10-15 years in SS benefits, retirement savings, 401(k) matches, promotions, etc. Not having more kids than you can afford to raise and educate. Giving up some frills (if you can afford frills) to save for retirement so you're not trying to live on SS alone in old age or relying on Medicaid for LTC. I know I was born on third base- marketable skills, parents who valued education and paid for it- but I also went back to work 6 weeks after DS was born. I just realized that I was in a similar position to all the people getting extended unemployment now- I was downsized in 1995 and because I'd been with the company for 10 years I got 20 weeks of paid salary and benefits. I called a recruiter the day I was let go. I was at a new job in 6 weeks. Partly luck and a great professional network- but there was NO WAY I would have waited till the $$ ran out to look for another job. There are plenty of posters here with humanities degrees or no degree at all that support themselves just fine. I think the people who migrate towards money boards are those that figured out how to use humanities degrees. For you, it was law school. I know several people in real life that had no plan and no carry through on their degrees. I do not think it is a bad thing to tell kids to have a plan for their degree and not just to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree. Maybe we would have less people whining about the taxpayers paying off their student loans if we did
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on May 20, 2021 12:24:11 GMT -5
Oh goodie! I love being told my B.A. in English is worthless! One of my favorite YM debates.
My STEM-B.S. husband does make less than me, though.
At least it funds my Disney World vacations and other frivolous purchases!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 20, 2021 12:26:48 GMT -5
Oh goodie! I love being told my B.A. in English is worthless! One of my favorite YM debates. My STEM-B.S. husband does make less than me, though. At least it funds my Disney World vacations and other frivolous purchases! You’ll be eating cat food in retirement if you keep wasting your money at Disney.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 20, 2021 13:07:42 GMT -5
Oh goodie! I love being told my B.A. in English is worthless! One of my favorite YM debates. My STEM-B.S. husband does make less than me, though. At least it funds my Disney World vacations and other frivolous purchases! Lol. Nope, you are a YM’r. You made good use of your degree
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 13:16:30 GMT -5
I think the people who migrate towards money boards are those that figured out how to use humanities degrees. For you, it was law school. I know several people in real life that had no plan and no carry through on their degrees. I do not think it is a bad thing to tell kids to have a plan for their degree and not just to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree. Maybe we would have less people whining about the taxpayers paying off their student loans if we did Thanks- and I also want to note that part of the issue is employers. I've mentioned before my friend who graduated from U. of Toronto with a degree in English Literature back in the 1970s. A major bank in NYC figured he was pretty smart and could be trained for a job in their Commercial Lending Department. He had a long, successful career in that field. Do you think those banks are hiring English majors in their Commercial Lending Departments now, or are they insisting on MBAs from a handful of schools? Few companies want to train anymore.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on May 20, 2021 13:21:18 GMT -5
Oh goodie! I love being told my B.A. in English is worthless! One of my favorite YM debates. My STEM-B.S. husband does make less than me, though. At least it funds my Disney World vacations and other frivolous purchases! You’ll be eating cat food in retirement if you keep wasting your money at Disney. She will be well off if she can eat cat food in retirement! It’s more expensive per pound than steak.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 20, 2021 15:21:05 GMT -5
I hate the whole don't pick a humanities degree. Do you read fiction books? Do you watch TV? Movies? Plays? Music? When is the last time you've gone 24 hours without any art in your life? The above types of degrees are the things that bring me great pleasure in life. Where would I be without them?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2021 16:20:58 GMT -5
Has it really shifted though? Or is it really a perception issue and a reporting issue? Reading this thread, I would say it shifted. We no longer expect people to sacrifice anything to support themselves. I understand that today I’m in a good position but that wasn’t always the case. I’ve done plenty of manual labor to get here. And if my world shifted, I know I could get a job tomorrow doing blue collar work. I’ve been accused of thinking I’m better than others but I’m actually just a person who would do whatever it took to support her family. I’m not too good to work on a factory floor if I had to. I’m not too good to flip burgers or run a register. I am too good to just throw in the towel and let the taxpayers support me. I’m a woman who wouldn’t take a cent from a man (child support) because I will never need someone else to support me or my children. Does it truly surprise anyone that I would feel the same way about taxpayer assistance? That isn’t arrogance or looking down at other hardworking people. That is pride. I don’t sit back and whine about my lot in life. I bust my ass to change it. So you FEEL reality has shifted because opinions are different today. You have no PROOF they have shifted but you and others cling to the lie nonetheless. Remember the sentence 'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride'? I offer a new one, 'If feelings were reality, Trump would have won in 2020'.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2021 16:29:34 GMT -5
I think the people who migrate towards money boards are those that figured out how to use humanities degrees. For you, it was law school. I know several people in real life that had no plan and no carry through on their degrees. I do not think it is a bad thing to tell kids to have a plan for their degree and not just to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree. Maybe we would have less people whining about the taxpayers paying off their student loans if we did Thanks- and I also want to note that part of the issue is employers. I've mentioned before my friend who graduated from U. of Toronto with a degree in English Literature back in the 1970s. A major bank in NYC figured he was pretty smart and could be trained for a job in their Commercial Lending Department. He had a long, successful career in that field. Do you think those banks are hiring English majors in their Commercial Lending Departments now, or are they insisting on MBAs from a handful of schools? Few companies want to train anymore.We all know they are not unless they have a special intern program or they know someone. When discussing unemployment and re-employment though, people do not acknowledge the corollary to this. Most companies accept applications via website. Most people are screened out and not even asked to interview. Managers have a bias against well educated workers when it comes to low paying jobs. On the whole, they would rather hire someone they feels belongs at McD's than someone who lost a good job. People who have experience in fast food are going to get interviewed over an unemployed chef, high end restaurant server, or travel agent. Yet some posters believe (without proof) the reason these people might be still unemployed is they won't look for lower paid work, totally ignoring the fact they might not be able to be hired for lower paid work.
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