Do People Just Not Want To Work Anymore?

[nidena]

Jul 13, 2022 22:06:59 GMT -5 nidena said:

There are those who want to work and then there are those who have recently been laid off...a venn diagram that is nearly just one circle.

www.linkedin.com/news/story/new-wave-of-layoffs-fueling-anxiety-4830593/

The link has been updated since I posted it a week ago, if you want to see the current list.

[billisonboard]

By my existence, to survive I must consume resources from the world. When young, I depended on society to keep me alive and nuture my growth as a person. My labor is how I pay society and the world back.

[Deleted]

Jul 20, 2022 9:25:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

By my existence, to survive I must consume resources from the world. When young, I depended on society to keep me alive and nurture my growth as a person. My labor is how I pay society and the world back.

That's a good way to look at it and I was in the workforce for 38 years.

I still believe I'm contributing to society.  Yes, I get SS but I'm in the high-earning group that gets less than the market value of their contributions back (and then 85% is taxed by the Feds AND by my state).  I'm spending money, donating to charities, buying things, having improvements made to my house and traveling.  I am not (thank heaven) getting any needs-based government benefits and I pay plenty of taxes. 

So, even after retirement you can contribute.

[billisonboard]

Jul 20, 2022 9:32:14 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 20, 2022 9:25:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

By my existence, to survive I must consume resources from the world. When young, I depended on society to keep me alive and nurture my growth as a person. My labor is how I pay society and the world back.

That's a good way to look at it and I was in the workforce for 38 years.

I still believe I'm contributing to society.  Yes, I get SS but I'm in the high-earning group that gets less than the market value of their contributions back (and then 85% is taxed by the Feds AND by my state).  I'm spending money, donating to charities, buying things, having improvements made to my house and traveling.  I am not (thank heaven) getting any needs-based government benefits and I pay plenty of taxes. 

So, even after retirement you can contribute.

plus I see it as part of the social contract that society is there to assist in old age and cases of disability if necessary.

EDIT: My goal is to be able to say on my deathbed that "my balance sheet" has a positive give to take ratio.

[teen persuasion]

Jul 20, 2022 7:55:33 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

teen persuasion why do you stay?

I'm really just coasting for a few more years until DS5 is no longer a dependent  ( our FIRE income level is low for tax purposes, so w/ a dependent we'd be eligible for EITC, but need a bit of earned income, so...).  It is conveniently close to home, and DS5's HS so he can walk over after school is out or to friends' house for D&, etc.  I know the limits of their budget (I chaired the fundraising years ago - that's how I eventually got hired), but it's still a slap in the face to have the board roll back my income to where it was in 2018!

Biggest issue: the Board of Trustees are all volunteer community members.  They are not experts, they are not getting paid, either, they are trying to view it from the perspective of doing the best for the community with taxpayer dollars.  I can't fault that viewpoint, but as amateurs they are focusing on CYA instead of the big picture.  They are putting the community ahead of the employees.  Ok, 3 vs 9k, but I still hate it personally.  Can't you at least support us, too?

DH is sympathetic to my ranting, but also giving me back my own lines from when our roles were reversed and he was ranting about his employer - you don't have to work there.  Right, I don't.  But it's not a megaCorp that I'd love to teach a lesson to by leaving them in a lurch.  It would affect my 2 coworkers, who are friends, and the community if I'm not there to pick up the slack.  And it's a bit complicated because we are also friendly with many of the board members - there's a lot of overlap between Board of Trustees/Friends of the Library/employees.  So I don't think the board realizes the bad taste this will leave for employees. 

In Jan the board was all on board to give us raises.  Yippee!  July - cut paid lunch, cut prep hours, because payroll increased $11k, need to get budget under control.  Wait, $11k increase?  That doesn't track mathematically.  But practically, I project to gross less than last year (with half a year at normal hours + $.70 raise, half a year at 10% hour cut + additional $.30 raise promised, not yet materialized).  Next year, should be below 2018 income (which was the last time I got a $.30 raise).  Meanwhile, the lower paid staff have gotten 3 $.70 min wage increases in that time period.

[djAdvocate]

i have labored enough.

when i started running my first business, i worked almost 100 hours some weeks.  i averaged well over 80 for a couple of years.  my work made it possible for dozens of other people to live comfortably.  i don't see any reason to give up the rest of my life as part of some ethereal social contract.  they don't owe me anything, but i certainly don't owe them anything at this juncture, either.

[teen persuasion]

Yesterday a patron was trying to job search on a library computer.  The "new" state labor website she was told to visit required her to create an account before she could do anything.  Nope, she didn't want to do that, be tracked, just to look at what basic jobs *might* be on the state labor site.

I think she's being a bit paranoid in her fear of tracking, but she does have a point - why does the state need to require an account to look for a job? Is that added layer of restriction really helpful for getting low tech laborers employed, or is it another roadblock?

[billisonboard]

Jul 22, 2022 11:11:13 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Yesterday a patron was trying to job search on a library computer.  The "new" state labor website she was told to visit required her to create an account before she could do anything.  Nope, she didn't want to do that, be tracked, just to look at what basic jobs *might* be on the state labor site.

I think she's being a bit paranoid in her fear of tracking, but she does have a point - why does the state need to require an account to look for a job? Is that added layer of restriction really helpful for getting low tech laborers employed, or is it another roadblock?

I think you have a good point. I encourage you to find a path to make someone who has some authority in such matters aware of how it plays out at ground level.

[giramomma]

Jul 22, 2022 11:11:13 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Yesterday a patron was trying to job search on a library computer.  The "new" state labor website she was told to visit required her to create an account before she could do anything.  Nope, she didn't want to do that, be tracked, just to look at what basic jobs *might* be on the state labor site.

I think she's being a bit paranoid in her fear of tracking, but she does have a point - why does the state need to require an account to look for a job? Is that added layer of restriction really helpful for getting low tech laborers employed, or is it another roadblock?

Of course it's a roadblock.

I'm sure the account also feeds into the system that tracks work search activity for unemployment. In my state, you have to search for work 4 hours a week, and prove it.

Not having access to technology is a barrier that prevents folks from not getting jobs. Our neighborhood elementary school has a 70% poverty rate. It was nearly failing. One of the things they did to stabilize it was to create a computer lab for parents for the sole purpose of apply for jobs. They also run a food pantry, personal items pantry, and clothing pantry out of the school as well.

[tallguy]

Jul 22, 2022 11:11:13 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Yesterday a patron was trying to job search on a library computer.  The "new" state labor website she was told to visit required her to create an account before she could do anything.  Nope, she didn't want to do that, be tracked, just to look at what basic jobs *might* be on the state labor site.

I think she's being a bit paranoid in her fear of tracking, but she does have a point - why does the state need to require an account to look for a job? Is that added layer of restriction really helpful for getting low tech laborers employed, or is it another roadblock?

It doesn't.  I would suggest though that the state does have an interest in making sure that anyone collecting unemployment benefits is actually and actively looking for a job.  If this requirement helps establish that history then is it actually wrong?  If it were possible to differentiate between those receiving unemployment benefits and those not, and having different account requirements for each, would you still object?

[billisonboard]

Jul 22, 2022 12:14:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 22, 2022 11:11:13 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Yesterday a patron was trying to job search on a library computer.  The "new" state labor website she was told to visit required her to create an account before she could do anything.  Nope, she didn't want to do that, be tracked, just to look at what basic jobs *might* be on the state labor site.

I think she's being a bit paranoid in her fear of tracking, but she does have a point - why does the state need to require an account to look for a job? Is that added layer of restriction really helpful for getting low tech laborers employed, or is it another roadblock?

It doesn't.  I would suggest though that the state does have an interest in making sure that anyone collecting unemployment benefits is actually and actively looking for a job.  If this requirement helps establish that history then is it actually wrong?  If it were possible to differentiate between those receiving unemployment benefits and those not, and having different account requirements for each, would you still object?

Seems it would be simple to have a screen pop up, "If you wish to use this job research to satisfy requirements for receiving unemployment benefits, you must create an account. If you wish to do that click 'Create Account' below. If you already have an account, click 'Sign In'. Otherwise click 'Continue'."

[tallguy]

Jul 22, 2022 13:05:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 22, 2022 12:14:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It doesn't.  I would suggest though that the state does have an interest in making sure that anyone collecting unemployment benefits is actually and actively looking for a job.  If this requirement helps establish that history then is it actually wrong?  If it were possible to differentiate between those receiving unemployment benefits and those not, and having different account requirements for each, would you still object?

Seems it would be simple to have a screen pop up, "If you wish to use this job research to satisfy requirements for receiving unemployment benefits, you must create an account. If you wish to do that click 'Create Account' below. If you already have an account, click 'Sign In'. Otherwise click 'Continue'."

Of course, but how many states both think about and pay for real service to their constituents?    

[resolution]

Jul 22, 2022 13:20:44 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 22, 2022 13:05:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Seems it would be simple to have a screen pop up, "If you wish to use this job research to satisfy requirements for receiving unemployment benefits, you must create an account. If you wish to do that click 'Create Account' below. If you already have an account, click 'Sign In'. Otherwise click 'Continue'."

Of course, but how many states both think about and pay for real service to their constituents?    

I briefly worked for an agency that ran the job search programs and website for a different state, and the employees there were very passionate about helping people find the best job possible for their situations and improve skills to become self sufficient. This included the upper management/administrators. They might be receptive to her suggestions if she shares what she has observed with the local population.

[teen persuasion]

NYS has instituted a state govt account that is used across all sorts of departments - unemployment, ACA portal, taxation dept, rental assistance, you name it. So anyone applying for unemployment had to create a NYS account already. It's also quite confusing to many who don't realize the same account covers all different state agencies - they forgot they created an account two years ago for Medicaid, and try to create a new one for unemployment, but the state tells you - you already have an account - go find the password or jump thru hoops to recover your login info. I had to create an account to protest a state income tax credit rejection, or rather 3 years of rejections, but didn't realize I had one from years back when we applied for health insurance thru NYStateOfHealth. Didn't remember, and didn't think those would be connected.

But this is apparently outside that big brother system, somehow. There's still a NYS DOL page, but she was told (over the phone) to go to New York usnlx, which turns out to be US national labor exchange (NY page). Maybe it's a national site, with content for each state.

[nidena]

Dwindling worker supply a bad omen?

The supply of workers has dwindled by about 600,000 since early 2020, per The Wall Street Journal, with the labor-force participation rate narrowing to 62.1% in July from 62.4% in March, according to the Labor Department.

[Opti]

Jul 22, 2022 16:22:47 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

NYS has instituted a state govt account that is used across all sorts of departments - unemployment, ACA portal, taxation dept, rental assistance, you name it. So anyone applying for unemployment had to create a NYS account already. It's also quite confusing to many who don't realize the same account covers all different state agencies - they forgot they created an account two years ago for Medicaid, and try to create a new one for unemployment, but the state tells you - you already have an account - go find the password or jump thru hoops to recover your login info. I had to create an account to protest a state income tax credit rejection, or rather 3 years of rejections, but didn't realize I had one from years back when we applied for health insurance thru NYStateOfHealth. Didn't remember, and didn't think those would be connected.

But this is apparently outside that big brother system, somehow. There's still a NYS DOL page, but she was told (over the phone) to go to New York usnlx, which turns out to be US national labor exchange (NY page). Maybe it's a national site, with content for each state.

It is used by NJ as well.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Aug 15, 2022 10:09:07 GMT -5 nidena said:

Dwindling worker supply a bad omen?

The supply of workers has dwindled by about 600,000 since early 2020, per The Wall Street Journal, with the labor-force participation rate narrowing to 62.1% in July from 62.4% in March, according to the Labor Department.

I wonder how much of that is based on the demographics of the baby boomers retiring or dropping out for good. We have known this silver tsunami was coming ( gen x is tiny compared to the boomers) but it doesn’t seem like we did any planning for it. Now that it is upon us (perhaps hurried by the pandemic), we have to deal with it. You can’t go back in time snd make more kids from the 1970s-1990s, so what do you do?

I see this in my own family... dad is a mid boomer (born 1955) and one of 5. He just retired and his next brother and sister on on the verge of retiring. His younger brother will retire in a few years (but works construction so maybe sooner). His youngest sister probably has 15 years left. Out of the 5, there were only 7 kids. My sister and cousin died as young adults so me and another cousin are in our 40s and have small kids. His youngest sister has 3 but they are aged 11-18 so not in the workforce. So that 5 is essentially replaced with 2 for another 10 years

[pulmonarymd]

We dealt with this in the past by allowing immigration. Doesn’t seem we are inclined to do that now. Hope automation can make up the difference. There are jobs that are labor intensive(like hedd as lyhcare) where that doesn’t work. Will be interesting to see. There may be a significant doctor shortage in about 10 years when my generation of physicians has retires

[nidena]

Aug 15, 2022 19:20:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

We dealt with this in the past by allowing immigration. Doesn’t seem we are inclined to do that now. Hope automation can make up the difference. There are jobs that are labor intensive(like hedd as lyhcare) where that doesn’t work. Will be interesting to see. There may be a significant doctor shortage in about 10 years when my generation of physicians has retires

With the oldest Boomers turning 76 this year and soon turning the largest number of births into, possibly, the largest number of deaths each year, I imagine we'll soon have a negative growth rate.

If that happens, do you think it will still be an issue?  This is truly a "correct me if I'm wrong" because I may be visualizing it incorrectly...if the number of doctors increases or merely stays the same due to attrition and our population stagnates, will it be an issue?

[pulmonarymd]

Aug 15, 2022 19:52:31 GMT -5 nidena said:

Aug 15, 2022 19:20:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

We dealt with this in the past by allowing immigration. Doesn’t seem we are inclined to do that now. Hope automation can make up the difference. There are jobs that are labor intensive(like hedd as lyhcare) where that doesn’t work. Will be interesting to see. There may be a significant doctor shortage in about 10 years when my generation of physicians has retires

With the oldest Boomers turning 76 this year and soon turning the largest number of births into, possibly, the largest number of deaths each year, I imagine we'll soon have a negative growth rate.

If that happens, do you think it will still be an issue?  This is truly a "correct me if I'm wrong" because I may be visualizing it incorrectly...if the number of doctors increases or merely stays the same due to attrition and our population stagnates, will it be an issue?

Yes, we are short physicians as it is. Medical school enrollment and residency spots have not kept up with population growth. In addition, we can do far more for many medical problems now than we could in the past. That makes many issues that weren’t able to be treated in the past. There are also many more medically complex patients who soak up resources and physician time. Electronic medical records also are more labor intensive, leading to lose of “productivity”. I know I cannot see as many patients as I could see with paper records. Younger physicians work fewer hours, women physicians make up a larger proportion of physicians, and they work fewer hours and see feeer patients than their male counterparts.

So, for many reasons we will have a serious physician shortage in the future

ETA: we have an aging population. Older people have more medical problems and require more medical visits. So I am not sure that we will die off quickly enough to decrease demand

[stillmovingforward]

Agreed. DD1 and DSIL are currently residents and say graduating residents are getting huge bonuses for signing contracts.
Plus other countries poach or doctors (Canada and New Zealand come to mind).
Our local hospital is already courting DD1.

[nidena]

Aug 15, 2022 20:39:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Aug 15, 2022 19:52:31 GMT -5 nidena said:

With the oldest Boomers turning 76 this year and soon turning the largest number of births into, possibly, the largest number of deaths each year, I imagine we'll soon have a negative growth rate.

If that happens, do you think it will still be an issue?  This is truly a "correct me if I'm wrong" because I may be visualizing it incorrectly...if the number of doctors increases or merely stays the same due to attrition and our population stagnates, will it be an issue?

Yes, we are short physicians as it is. Medical school enrollment and residency spots have not kept up with population growth. In addition, we can do far more for many medical problems now than we could in the past. That makes many issues that weren’t able to be treated in the past. There are also many more medically complex patients who soak up resources and physician time. Electronic medical records also are more labor intensive, leading to lose of “productivity”. I know I cannot see as many patients as I could see with paper records. Younger physicians work fewer hours, women physicians make up a larger proportion of physicians, and they work fewer hours and see feeer patients than their male counterparts.

So, for many reasons we will have a serious physician shortage in the future

ETA: we have an aging population. Older people have more medical problems and require more medical visits. So I am not sure that we will die off quickly enough to decrease demand

Isn't it interesting that electronic records have made things slower?  I know when I was a mechanic in the USAF, we hated transferring all the data from the paper forms to the computer database but it made things easier when pulling up a history the next time the plane was ailing.

To your other points, I just had an appt with my female neurologist about migraines--one of those ailments that wouldn't have been treated a century ago and certainly not by a woman. 

I read recently in AARP about the increased need but serious lack of Geriatric GPs--docs who specialize in the aging body and can be a single point of contact that interfaces with all the specialists that aging bodies need/require.

Do they even offer that as a specialty in the beginning of a doctor's career?  Or maybe mid-level when they're not so green?

[pulmonarymd]

Aug 16, 2022 9:32:24 GMT -5 nidena said:

Aug 15, 2022 20:39:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yes, we are short physicians as it is. Medical school enrollment and residency spots have not kept up with population growth. In addition, we can do far more for many medical problems now than we could in the past. That makes many issues that weren’t able to be treated in the past. There are also many more medically complex patients who soak up resources and physician time. Electronic medical records also are more labor intensive, leading to lose of “productivity”. I know I cannot see as many patients as I could see with paper records. Younger physicians work fewer hours, women physicians make up a larger proportion of physicians, and they work fewer hours and see feeer patients than their male counterparts.

So, for many reasons we will have a serious physician shortage in the future

ETA: we have an aging population. Older people have more medical problems and require more medical visits. So I am not sure that we will die off quickly enough to decrease demand

Isn't it interesting that electronic records have made things slower?  I know when I was a mechanic in the USAF, we hated transferring all the data from the paper forms to the computer database but it made things easier when pulling up a history the next time the plane was ailing.

To your other points, I just had an appt with my female neurologist about migraines--one of those ailments that wouldn't have been treated a century ago and certainly not by a woman. 

I read recently in AARP about the increased need but serious lack of Geriatric GPs--docs who specialize in the aging body and can be a single point of contact that interfaces with all the specialists that aging bodies need/require.

Do they even offer that as a specialty in the beginning of a doctor's career?  Or maybe mid-level when they're not so green?

Work I could delegate has become things I need to do. Documentation requirements that need to be completed before you can go to next screen slow things down.

Geriatrics is a distinct specialty with its own fellowship. Pay is poor, work is thankless, and it requires additional training. It is akin to the stem discussion that goes on. It is a "worthless" specialty because ROI is bad.

ANother factor> Training is now longer, so a physicians productive career is now shorter. Instead of 3-5 years of post medical school training, it is now 6-9 years in many cases, and the average age of medical students is also creeping up. So people are not starting their careers until 35 instead of 30. So the "supply chain" is now longer.

[jerseygirl]

DD quit nursing in the ER in good part because of electronic medical records. Significantly slowed down treatment when needing to go screen to screen instead of right to the physical page with needed info

[Tiny]

With the oldest Boomers turning 76 this year and soon turning the largest number of births into, possibly, the largest number of deaths each year, I imagine we'll soon have a negative growth rate.

Just to the number of Boomers reaching retirement/death...

I'll be in the last year of Boomers hitting "retirement" - I'm technically a boomer - but relate more to Gen Xers. I don't have all those "happy childhood memories" that the boomers all seem to have.  for me: the number of kids in schools was lower and all the public places/activities for kids had ramped down (and all the buildings and pools and parks and whatnot that were brand spanking new 20 years prior to my use - were all tired and old and in need of repair (and that wasn't happening as there wasn't much demand for it to be done.)

I'm sure the "retirement years" will be great for most of the boomers - every thing they get is new and shiny for their old age. But by the time I get around to needing/doing most of the things they are doing now - I will have to pick and choose from the "second hand" stuff they are done with. So aging (as in 20 or 30 years) "old people's homes" and perhaps services for which there is less demand for and therefore not as much money spent on providing those services.

Maybe it won't happen that way... but I suspect some version of it will.

[stillmovingforward]

And doctors need a high ROI. DD1 was frugal but still owes just over $400,000 for her degree. She only had $30,000 in loans for undergrad. And residency pays garbage. It's a good thing he loans are in hold right now.

[jerseygirl]

Aug 16, 2022 17:44:20 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

And doctors need a high ROI. DD1 was frugal but still owes just over $400,000 for her degree. She only had $30,000 in loans for undergrad. And residency pays garbage. It's a good thing he loans are in hold right now.

Another sad symptom of the whacked out US health system. This system abuses the smartest hard working and idealistic people

[pulmonarymd]

So how do we fix that?

[NastyWoman]

Nine months after retirement check-in: Nope. I still don't want to work again.     

[tallguy]

Sept 2, 2022 13:15:26 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Nine months after retirement check-in: Nope. I still don't want to work again.     

If I don't manage to make it back in a month for my five-year check-in....  No, I don't either.